My ex'd dad's TBM family *hated* that he'd requested cremation, and that I followed through on his request.
First, it denies them the opportunity to have a mormon funeral with a body sitting there that everyone can treat like a mormon even though they're dead and non mormon.
Second, there are some wacky ideas out there about "resurrection."
One relative told me that while he (and the church) discouraged cremation, ultimately it would be OK. "It just makes more work for the Lord at resurrection time," he said. 'Cause apparently turning ashes back into a glorified human being is harder on "the Lord" than turning a worm-eaten pile of bones into one.
ificouldhietokolob Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "It just makes more work for the Lord at > resurrection time," he said. 'Cause apparently > turning ashes back into a glorified human being is > harder on "the Lord" than turning a worm-eaten > pile of bones into one.
+1 Best thing I read today! ;)
Burned. Worm-eaten. Isn't it all just "matter" to re-organize?
This used to be docterine although I am sure the the church would disavow it now. Cremation was forbidden or discouraged by the church because you are harder to resurrect after being cremated. Never mormons tend to laugh when they hear that. I picture god standing in front of my ashes, straining fiercely and with some level of frusteration showing on his face, all because I choose to be cremated. Finally poof, I appear, god relaxes, and catches his breath. Good thing everyone doesn't do it. He would be completely worn out.
Another version of the story says that during the mellenium, men will routinely be going to cemetaries and using the priesthood, will bring back their family members. The only problem is that as novices, pre-exalted and recently-exalted men will find it particularly difficult to bring back those who were cremated.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/2018 11:00PM by azsteve.
Chica Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > So she did some research (she is very TBM) and > learned that the church doesn't encourage > cremation, but still says: "it's okay as long as > you're cremated in your temple clothing". >
That is one of the most cultish things I've ever heard about Mormonism. I know they do their burials in temple clothes (which is creepy enough already), but I had no idea people think that if someone is cremated they must be in temple clothes!
My childhood indoctrination taught me that cremation was super bad and forbidden. And then my nevermo grandpa passed away when I was 12 and he was cremated. Talk about confusion for a youngster.
Another very "cultish" thing happened, too. Right after the dedication of the grave in the cemetery, I overheard the bishop questioning the relative who gave the blessing if he was sure he had said "in the name of the holy melchizedek priesthood".
So weird! Because if it wasn't dedicated correctly, he'll never be able to escape the casket and concrete vault buried under 6 ft of dirt when it's time to resurrect? Because the dead body won't be safe?
That bishop was so by-the-book, it wouldn't surprise me if he went back later to dedicate the grave himself.
A few years ago, most of my family got together for the funeral of one of my brothers. While there, one of my other brothers got a notification that one of the soldiers in his battalion had died.
They contacted my TMB SIL because the guy was Mormon, and they wanted her to contact the wife, to coordinate with her, or be some sort of liaison because they reasonably assumed that being Mormon it would be a good fit.
I only heard her side of the convo, of course, so don't know in total what had been spoken of. But after she hung and was griping some, she blurted out, "we're not weird!" I really wanted to say, "uh, no! Yeah, you are weird." ;)
...here's a good one. My HP FIL's funeral was attended by a son who was a BP. During the open casket viewing, everything was good to go. Then, the funeral director started wheeling the casket/cart out to the limo, when the BP son realized that his dad did not have the full regalia on. Apparently, the funeral home, or the member/body dressers, forgot the bakers cap. At that point the son was literally chasing the casket-cart outside to the limo trying to fasten the cap to the corpse. What was funny was that the cardboard cap stiffener was still in place in the cap, and made the task nearly impossible. He struggled, then violently forced the cap onto his dead fathers head which screwed up all the cosmetics and makeup work done prior. It was too funny, yet the solemness of the funeral had to be maintained.......at least by the anointed.
My wishes are to be cremated and then have my ashes turned into a diamond and made into a ring for my granddaughter.
I once had a long argument about cremation with an LDS authority. He said we had to recover all the matter that had composed our bodies to be ressurected.
So I said.... a pioneer dies on his way to Utah in 1848. Is buried on the plains. His matter ends up in the grass eaten by cows owned by pioneers in 1858. So now his "matter" is part of the cow. When the pioneers eat the cow and share it with others his "matter" is now with 10 other faithful mormons.
Yeah, that "matter" thing is so ridiculous, and flies in the face of our knowledge...
The "matter" that makes up your body today is different from the "matter" that made it up yesterday. Or an hour ago. We eat things (as you pointed out) that we turn into body parts. Those things we eat came from other living things, since dead. When we die, other living things eat us, and other living things eat them, and they wind up in other people.
But of course, can't let the facts get in the way of a good religious fantasy...
ificouldhietokolob Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah, that "matter" thing is so ridiculous, and > flies in the face of our knowledge... > > The "matter" that makes up your body today is > different from the "matter" that made it up > yesterday.
For reasons that Brother Kolob has mentioned here, I've often thought it somewhat strange that people who go in for cremation often cherish or memorialize in some way the cremated remains of an individual. These so-called "ashes" are in reality little more than ground up bone fragments. There is no longer any form resembling a human being connected with them.
In some of the mortuaries (funeral homes) I've worked for, there would be a closet containing plastic "urns" containing the cremated remains of people whose relatives had never come by to claim them. Some of us on the staff would jokingly refer to these urns as containing "instant people." (Just add water!)
commongentile Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In some of the mortuaries (funeral homes) I've > worked for, there would be a closet containing > plastic "urns" containing the cremated remains of > people whose relatives had never come by to claim > them.
As someone who has been the designated "ultimate beneficiary" of the ashes of several relatives, it is my experience (for incredibly disparate reasons) that getting those cremains to THEIR "ultimate destination" (whatever that may turn out to be) can be far more complex than anyone who has never been in this position could predict.
I don't know any of the relatives of those whose ashes resided in the mortuary closet you describe (a situation which undoubtedly exists at every mortuary and crematory), but I empathize with those relatives because, not only have I "been there" (past tense), I still "AM there" (right now): the possessor of the ashes of one very much appreciated relative, and two dogs who were extremely loved by the humans they lived with (neither of which canine situations, when the dogs were living, involved me).
Both practically and emotionally, the "final disposition" of cremated ashes can be far more complex than is apparent to anyone who has not before been the responsible person in this kind of situation.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 04:18PM by Tevai.
Those who are having problems with it should consider the number of people whose bodies pretty much disappeared during 9-11 and bodies that are never retrieved from disasters such as the sinking of the Titanic. It is the same concept as the Catholic Church giving the last rights. It just isn’t going to always happen.
And what about people who have had their remains launched into space? How do TBMs reconcile that? Joseph Fielding Smith's head would have exploded at the thought! It makes resurrection so much harder for The Lord™!
Back in the day (70s and earlier) we always used to hear that cremation was bad bad bad because we'd get our own body of flesh and bone back, just like God did. They never could come up with an answer for what happens to people who are cremated because it's required by law or soldiers who were blown to smithereens, etc. when they get resurrected and get their body back. And for that matter, when they drain all your blood and guts to fill you up with embalming fluid, where do you get new blood and guts for your resurrected body? It was one of those "it will be answered in the next life, so shut up and quit asking questions" subjects.
I think it's another one of those "we never taught that" subjects now. They frown on it because they love their rituals with the corpses, but I do know of Mormons in the last 20 years who have chosen cremation. And now when I go to a funeral with a body it gives me the willies. About 90% of the memorial services I have attended in the past 15 years have been cremations. That's the only option I would choose now. I love the idea of green burials, but they require having someone caring and wise enough left behind to carry that out and you run into a lot of different state laws that are barriers.
NormaRae Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ...when they drain all your blood and guts to > fill you up with embalming fluid, where do you get > new blood and guts for your resurrected body?
NormaRae, writing as an experienced embalmer, I have a correction for something you've written here. While embalmers do replace a deceased person's blood with embalming fluid, we do not remove "guts" from the body. The body's organs can be removed by a pathologist if he or she performs an autopsy, but even then, the organs are usually returned. Most of the time the embalmer will find the organs of the autopsied body in a plastic bag inside the chest/abdomen. The embalmer adds a strong type of embalming fluid called "cavity fluid" to the contents of the plastic bag, which is then set aside while the rest of the body is embalmed. The plastic bag with the organs in it is then sewn inside the body. So the "guts" are still there.
I replied to NormaRae's post about embalmers removing the "guts" from the body during the embalming process, and pointed out that they don't do this. But I also thought of something tangential about this that links to Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham. Facsimile number 1 in the Book of Abraham, according to Joseph Smith, shows an idolatrous priest about to sacrifice Abraham, who is stretched out on an altar. Actually, this facsimile shows an Egyptian embalming scene. There are four jars with animal heads under the embalming table. These are known as "canopic jars." Unlike modern embalmers, Egyptian embalmers did remove the organs from the body during the embalming process and the organs were placed in these canpoic jars. But Joseph Smith identified the jars as four idolatrous gods.
When I was in Mortuary College, we studied the history of embalming and our textbook showed this Egyptian embalming scene. I wonder what the 16 returned missionaries in my class thought of this apparently being so much different from what they thought it represented from reading The Book of Abraham.
Catholics traditionally have favored traditional burials as well. Much to my surprise, my mother elected to be cremated. We buried her ashes in a grave next to my father's remains. It was a good lesson to me that everything can go into the ground with no one the wiser.
In my metro area, the Catholic Church runs radio ads in which a guy in a soothing tone says "catholic cemeteries are..." [long dramatic pause] ..."sacred ground." I guess it's their version of the last temple visit. You gotta pay to play.
There was a related curiosity as well. Just as Mormons were not supposed to have themselves cremated lest it interfere with the resurrection, they were also discouraged from becoming organ donors for the same reason.
I don't know the situation now, but 20 or 25 years ago the church warned members to think these things through very carefully and prayerfully.
> they were also discouraged from becoming organ > donors for the same reason. >
Seriously?!?! I should ask my TBM (to the max) parents about that one! My father had a major organ transplant surgery recently and now my mother is all over organ donation and has become a donor ambassador. WTF
Edited to add: I always learn so much from this website!!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 07:07PM by bluebutterfly.
I'm not sure most Mormons would ever know about it. There was a point where "organ donor" status suddenly became common. Middle 1990s?
I don't think there were many Mormons who were interested in that, and the ones who were probably didn't ask the church. But I believe that for a while the Handbook of Instructions contained some warnings. . .
But I have left written instructions saying otherwise. I want to be cremated, and have one of my heirs fly to San Diego with my ashes, and be scattered in the ocean off Cabrillo point, by the lighthouse. That's where I grew up, and that's where I want to fade out.
last year at this time, after my mom’s older (nevermo) sister died and chose to be cremated. Munchymomom stewed, fretted, and went around for months telling strangers about it, as if it had just happened. Big problem, apparently.
It's against Jewish law and customs to be cremated. The reasoning is that the temple of the soul is the body, and it is not to be desecrated including in death. In Mormonism, it has something to do with the resurrection. My parents used to tell me that it was important to be facing the East so when the dead rise from the graves it will be facing (actually Jerusalem.) They didn't raise us with Jewish law. That was how my dad was taught as a Mormon, and his pioneer ancestors believed was similar to Jewish law on burial.
If a person drowns at sea, or dies in a fire, that is something that can't be helped. Otherwise, God gives us life and takes it back when we die. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. It honors God to respect the body that gives us life.
It's against Jewish customs to tattoo or have body piercings for the same reasoning. My mom wouldn't allow me to pierce my ears before I was in high school. She would tell me "If God wanted you to have pierced ears, you'd have been born with them."
After my parents divorce and they both went inactive, and subsequently remarried Jack Mormons ... mom went and pierced her ears several times on each ear lobe.
So much for her religious preferences. That went out the door upon her divorce.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2018 01:24PM by Amyjo.
Bodies can be cremated after the funeral...just saying. My brother in law was there in a full casket which was then loaded in a hearse for a dramatic departure from the funeral home....to the crematorium. Seemed like a huge waste of money to me, but that is what hen ordered up as he knew he was terminal. His ashes were interred some time later privately.
After becoming an exmo, I decided I wanted to be cremated. Last month my wife and I were working with an attorney to update our estate documents. While we were filling out the paperwork, one of the questions was about our burial wishes. When I said my desire was to be cremated. Both my TBM wife and daughter were upset and said I was being selfish and not sensitive to our family. I explained my position and my daughter became very emotional about it. I told them that I thought it was disrespectful not to honor my burial wishes. She just got more emotional and said, "You getting cremated will traumatize all of us." I decided to not be cremated for the sake of my family. Shit, I'll be dead. So I won't give a f**k one way or the other. I believe my TBM family are not being sensitive to my wishes, but what the hell. So much is the life of being an exmo in a very TBM family. Life sucks sometimes, but I love them and most of the time things run smoothly.
The church has always permitted cremation. They like the idea of members carrying the urns into the endowment ceremony after the urn has been physically baptized. There is nothing more satisfying than sticking out your hands to do the handshakes while the urn watches in awe. <satire>
When I was in Young Women in the 70's, We were taught that God gives each individual the ability to resurrect their own body. Therefore if we are cremated, we are making things hard on ourselves for Resurrection Day. Cremated bodies are exceedingly difficult to resurrect, and God doesn't have to do it! DIY, or remain forever a spirit.
One of those old Mormon "mysteries" that nobody ever talks about anymore.
Josephina Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Cremated bodies are > exceedingly difficult to resurrect, and God > doesn't have to do it! DIY, or remain forever a > spirit. > > One of those old Mormon "mysteries" that nobody > ever talks about anymore.
Sad that many Mormons today are no longer interested in these deeper doctrines.
A number of years ago myself,along with another 2 sisters were asked to dress the body of an elderly lady in her temple clothes,none of her children/grandchildren were members,we went to the funeral home and dressed the lady,one sister brought baby powder,she said it made it easier to deal with the cold body.
After we had dressed her we covered her body with the satin in the coffin,this only left her head visible,this was due to her children wishing to view the Mum,as the 2 ladies came into the room one sister started to sing,"families will be together forever" I was horrified and slowly backed out of the room,ridiculous thing to do,the deceased was to be cremated and the same sister said she would'nt be brought forth in the ressurection,insensitive to say the least.
They aren't building more cemeteries and plots are getting more and more expensive. burying a stiff costs a lot more than burning one up. Mormons will cremate more and more out of necessity. Especially in highly populated areas where cemetery real estate is at a premium.
For those people planning to have their ashes made into a diamond and given to someone....
Diamonds are made of pure carbon. Cremating a body drives off almost all the carbon as carbon dioxide. There may be some carbon in calcium carbonate in the ashes, but not much and certainly not pure carbon. I think you're being sold a bill of goods.
My neighbor and friend passed away last year. He was an Episcopalian.
At the end of the funeral services, the deacon asked that everyone gather at the columbarium that was located outside the church in a peaceful garden area.
The columbarium is a vault with an access door at the top. A few prayers were said and my friend's ashes were poured in.
The columbarium is a common disposal site for that churches members. There is a plaque near by with the name and dates of the people who's remain are disposed there.
I think this is a pretty reasonable solution to many of the objections to the cost, resources etc. about burials.
I been to a number of interments of ashes at various cemetery's and the size of a private vault is large enough to hold about a dozen urns of remains. The columbarium the size of a resident septic tank could hold the remains of thousands.