My daughter is set to go to the Guatemala MTC ma~nana. We had her party yesterday. I had so many Mormons in my backyard I thought I was hosting a ward function.

It was like it always is. The Mormons talk to themselves and us others talk to ourselves. So I hung with the non-Mormon contingent. They asked all the usual questions like how does the location to go get picked and does the kid have any input. They laughed when they learned how my daughter learned a completely different language and the church sends her to another language place.

But it was a perfect evening for it. The yard was shaded by our big tree and the weather was a perfect 70ish degrees with some sun.

So I was enjoying life except for the impromptu water bottle throwing party that the herd of kids started next to me. I thought I was going to get clocked. Luckily I didn't but I did see the bishop (who never talks to my wife or kids) hanging out almost the whole time of the party. He didn't go away. And actually at one point he took a woman way over to my side yard and started talking to her. I commented to my friend, "Only at a Mormon party would a bishop be interviewing someone." It was stupid how this guy basks in his temporary importance. Oh well.

The party was good except for the unruly bored (why the hell did they bring them) gang of Mormon children (and a couple of non believer's kids as well.) Thank God my Mormon neighbors had a coop of chickens to host an impromptu petting zoo.

Well, after the party my daughter tells me that she got a tweet about a volcanic eruption at her destination city and she might not be able to leave on Tuesday. I told her it was a sign from God.

I hope your daughter did some self-defense training. Maybe when she's there she can get some pepper spray or something, too.

She didn't. She has "faith" that everything will be ok. Ah, to be young and immortal again.

And what about the missionaries who died while on their missions? It does happen. Maybe she thinks they were somehow faithless and God didn't protect them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2018 01:52PM by rubi123.

I don't know what she thinks other than she is young and her lord will provide.

doesn't she have a while in the MTC or is she going to an MTC elsewhere? My neighbor's daughter went to a Mexico MTC.

Always the bishops hanging out acting important. We had that at my daughter's college graduation party. We had 2 bishops actually. Both are neighbors.

I would HATE IT if my daughter was leaving on a mission. Mine is in Alaska and can talk to me any time. She is homesick today. But she is taking the social media fast. I'm sure she can call me. I didn't want my son to go and told him so from a young age. He never believed in it anyway. My daughter was planning on going and not telling me until the last minute, but I figure it out rather quickly. She decided not to go. I was SO RELIEVED.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2018 02:51PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
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> doesn't she have a while in the MTC or is she
> going to an MTC elsewhere? My neighbor's daughter
> went to a Mexico MTC.

They have a MTC in Central America in Guatemala. We'll see if her flight isn't canceled.

> Always the bishops hanging out acting important.

IKR? It is so stupid what an ego boost for the small minded that is.

I don't remember the poster but they replied to my post about my daughter leaving with some great information to give to her which I incorporated into a letter to her I'm giving her before she leaves.

Here is the letter. Thanks to the poster again for this great stuff.

You know I love and support you. Please try to understand why I'm writing this to you. When I went, I was clueless. My parents were more than happy to throw me into their church's missionary machine and wash their hands of me except to write a check. I was told that if I came home early no matter the reason that I was not welcome in their home anymore. It is a hard reality, but I knew I was an adult albeit a very unprepared one.

As an adult, I made the choice to go on a mission to escape a reality I didn't enjoy at home thinking being somewhere else for two years would help me resign myself to my lot in life. I had gone back to parents who had kicked me out of their house. I know I’m responsible for the choices I made, and I know you know you are responsible for the choices you make regardless of who influenced you to make the choice to go on a mission and regardless of what type of persuasion was used. But given my perspective, I was coerced, and they used the indoctrination they used on me my whole life. You can ignore the fact that you were influenced by a whole network of people who make a mission some sort of preeminent rite of passage for their culture and society, but it wasn’t a decision you made on your own. You can’t deny the influence of others.

I can explain to you what I’m driving at with an example. Say you choose to discuss your spiritual life with someone who has ulterior motives, regardless of whether the discussion was supposedly in confidence, you can reasonably expect that someone to use that information to influence you, manipulate you, and coerce you. Our greater society makes personal information, and other things more private than they should be in my opinion. It is because we use this information against each other. Information becomes more valuable the more personal and exploitable. We are all human beings socially designed to help each other but also to exploit each other and often we do that with “higher” purposes. Knowledge is power. The more someone knows about your desires, the more power they have over you. LDS culture invariably comes with forms of coercion. And a mission is where it gets really bad. People will notice your desires to be a good missionary and will try to control you using those desires against you.

You are a VOLUNTEER. As such, you are in a superior position. The LDS church is asking you for your help. If you chose to extend your kindness to the church by VOLUNTEERING, the church needs to understand its position as the recipient of charity. If any mission president, stake president, bishop or other so-called leader makes demands of you, remind him that beggars can't be choosers and he is in no position to demand anything of you, AN ADULT VOLUNTEER.

You are an adult, you are a volunteer, there is no binding contract. You can be a missionary on Sunday and a tourist the rest of the week if you so choose. You don't need their permission to be a missionary. You can go knock doors anywhere you want at any time without anyone's permission, blessing, calling, or setting apart. You don't need anyone's permission to be a tourist at any time. You can tour anywhere you choose at any time. It's your belief system that both limits and empowers you.

They cannot 'send' you home. They can only coerce you into agreeing to go home. You have your own passport and visa and I can send you money. You have the option of telling the mission president you will go home on your schedule, not his. If he has trouble understanding that, I'm certain the local police will help him understand the you are a FREE ADULT, not an indentured servant in a foreign country working for their passage back home.

Have a telephone calling card, and a photocopy of your passport with you. That's what any rational adult would do. DO NOT TELL ANYONE about them. They are your ticket out. Keep your options open.

Take care of yourself. Make sure you get enough sleep. Make sure you eat right. Make sure you are safe. Make sure you are healthy. Make sure you keep private matters private. That all sounds obvious. What isn't obvious to some missionaries is that obeying rules does not relieve one from natural consequences. If people around you are not allowing you to take care of yourself, they are not your friends. Simply tell them that you are not available for whatever it is they want you to do. If they as why, simply say you don't care to discuss that. Do not present your reasons for debate. You are an ADULT. You do not have to defend your reasons for your decisions. You do have to live in the environment you create with your decisions.

One more thing. You know that story about putting fleas in a jar with the lid on and after a while they'll only jump high enough to not hit the lid? When you take the lid off and the fleas won't jump out of the jar.

As long as you think of yourself as anything other than an INDEPENDENT ADULT, you will never jump out of the jar.

I am here to help you in anything I can do. I met some of the most selfish and vindictive people I’ve ever met in my life on my mission. I watched a system of sycophants promote these terrible people into positions of power over me. I did what I wanted to a degree, but I was terrified about being sent home and having to beg someone to let me live with them, so I could get on my feet and not live on the street.

This is something I never want you to feel. You know I would fly down there and pick you up. You know I’m terrified about what could happen to you. I haven’t been able to hang out with you for a couple of years and I’ve been jealous of your grandparents. But you still have me. I’m still here. The chorus of Mormons is all around you singing their same tired hymns but I’m in the back dancing to my own tunes and excited to see you when I can.

Know I love you and I’m the support system for you that I never had when you are out there lonely and depressed because that will happen. I think any missionary who denies that they ever felt lonely and depressed is a liar. But I will be here thinking of you and writing you and probably swearing for the censor’s sake.

That's a lovely letter. Be sure to talk to your daughter (if you haven't already) about getting proper medical and dental care when needed. Remind her that she doesn't need anyone's permission to do that.

Thanks. I'll reiterate.

Dozens of people were killed in that volcano eruption. If that's her destination, what the heck?!

My sons best friend is leaving for the Guatemala mission in a few weeks. My son leaves for the Guatemalan MTC (mission in Honduras) in September.

It's truly terrifying.

That’s an awesome letter from an awesome Dad, Elder Berry!

Thank you Boner. It has been a rough month rolling down the mission trail with her.

She is great but her mind is set. Nothing will dissuade her and I've continually appeared to be the devil's advocate in my family. I wonder if any of my kids and wife knows how hard this is for me?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2018 09:16AM by Elder Berry.

I’ve been there, Bro. BTW, I think you’re an awesome man! You’ve handled this so well. I’m always amazed at your family history, you figuring yourself out, and how you’ve done the seemingly impossible with your family. Although I may not comment, I read all your posts. Big Bro-hugs, Elder, you’re fucking awesome.

Thank you Boner.

My genes and environment made Mormonism incompatible for my personality but I tried. I tried. This is one of the results of trying.

I read all your posts as well although i am not the boner. Your topics are always pretty unique from the rest.

Thank you Adam I like yours as well. They are very raw. I'm sure newbies would find them very good.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> Thank you Adam I like yours as well. They are very
> raw. I'm sure newbies would find them very good.

Haha raw indeed.

Elder Berry Wrote:
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> Well, after the party my daughter tells me that
> she got a tweet about a volcanic eruption at her
> destination city and she might not be able to
> leave on Tuesday. I told her it was a sign from
> God.

We are taking her to the airport today. I asked her what she knew about the Guatemala MTC and she doesn't know anything. I told her I hated my 8 weeks in the Provo MTC and my younger child piped in that it was because I went on a mission for the wrong reasons.

What are "the right" reasons? Should you earn all the money you will need to prove your are going for "the right" reasons? How about that?

I admit I went with ulterior motives to leave my parent's home and toxic relationship and see some of the world on their dime.

Why would any "church" send a young and naive girl to those shithole countries around the world.

Totally NUTS

Wow when a certain someone else said "shithole countries" lots of people were so offended and outraged.

I would bet even a lot of posters here were outraged.

But now everyone seems just fine with it when talking about missionaries.

I don't care. I just thought it was interesting.

Exactly, even sending a young man to any of those countries is so wrong. I guess being sent there has more prestige to Mormons than being sent to a “ cushy” assignment.
I even knew of people in some of my wards who spoke a fluent European language, but still got sent to a 3rd world country

Prehaps I dont understand the culture being a convert and having both been in the Army overseas and then serving a mission in Eorope. I did it with my own money and no support from others. Yes I had problems with jerks in high places unbearable @$#holes etc.But like the Army you manned up and dealt with it.If you didnt have the corage to say no its your problem.

I think my daughter is "man"ing up. I'm the one wrapped around the axis of Mormon evil on this.

They took all the missionaries out of is it Nicaragua, so why are they sending them into a country in crisis and a dangerous area right now? That just makes NO SENSE.

For some odd reason I am the one who is the devil's advocate with my daughter, not her father. Go figure. She has the utmost respect for him. For some reason the burden is on me, but then my boyfriend pointed out to me that I never abandoned her, and she can't be sure if her dad will abandon her again, but being the devil's advocate is a really painful place to be. At least I can talk to my ex, son, and boyfriend about how my daughter sees me. You're pretty much on your own. I hope your daughter sees some behavior by the MP, etc., so she can relate to some things you have told her, realize that the leaders don't have a clue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2018 02:27PM by cl2.

I will. I will. You guys still make up most of my support system for the Mormonisms in my life.

Nicaragua is unsafe for political reasons. Not going to Guatemala because of the political environment next door is somewhat like not going to Canada because of what's going on in the US.
The Guatemala airport was closed due to ash cloud, not imminent danger from the other stuff coming out of the volcano. That danger is limited to about a 10 to 15 mile radius.
That being said, I've spent a fair amount of time in Guatemala.
I used to travel around solo, but I wouldn't do that now because of the gangs, which are worse in the north than the south.
Don't interpret this as an endorsement of sending missionaries there, because I don't agree with the whole missionary program.

MnRN Wrote:
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> I used to travel around solo, but I wouldn't do
> that now because of the gangs, which are worse in
> the north than the south.

My daughter and I talked a lot about her safety there. She claims the gangs don't bother missionaries because they are religious.

MnRN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nicaragua is unsafe for political reasons. Not
> going to Guatemala because of the political
> environment next door is somewhat like not going
> to Canada because of what's going on in the US.
> The Guatemala airport was closed due to ash cloud,
> not imminent danger from the other stuff coming
> out of the volcano. That danger is limited to
> about a 10 to 15 mile radius.
> That being said, I've spent a fair amount of time
> in Guatemala.
> I used to travel around solo, but I wouldn't do
> that now because of the gangs, which are worse in
> the north than the south.
> Don't interpret this as an endorsement of sending
> missionaries there, because I don't agree with the
> whole missionary program.

My father just went to nicaragua, i swear he travels more than anyone i know. I don't think he knows what to do if he isn't traveling somewhere.

Just saw this. Super not happy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/new-evacuations-near-guatemala-volcano-set-off-panic/ar-AAyhc8S?ocid=spartanntp

and some surrounding areas.

Someone in SLC was "inspired" to send my stepson there, too. But he was on Dexedrine for horrific ADD. Without that medicine, he was not functional. (Fortunately, he has outgrown that.)

I called somebody wherever it is that mission calls are issued, and asked, how was our son to remain on this medication when he was in Guatemala? This lady told me, "It is illegal to have Dexedrine in Guatemala." I explained that we might as well shred the mission papers.

Son was reassigned to a stateside mission, where our family doctor remained in touch with the mission doctor, and Son could stay on his medication. He served his mission very well, remained in the church longer than anyone else in the family, married in the temple, and left after ordinances were denied to the children of gay parents.

We don't have to worry about grandchildren going on missions.

Jeeeesus christ, mormons would hardly talk to me at those type of things even when i was active. The guys i play cards with think i am an alright guy though. Mormons hanging out is just all together awkward. Interviewing in someone's backyard is very strange.

It was nice to get an email from her. Here is a bit of it.

"Today is just an introduction day, so after this we get to go take a nap and unpack. The rooms are so nice here. They are like traditional college dorms. Much bigger than Provo! The food here is already good too. We had breakfast when we got here and I tried some weird fruit and some ones I already knew. We also had fried potatoes and they were like fried balls of mashed potatoes. My favorite thing I've had so far though is the mango juice. It is SO good!"

Sorry everyone for all my posting. It has been a rough "Mormon" month.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2018 05:43PM by Elder Berry.

Oh, please dont apologize. I would be having kittens by now.

I can see a reason for being sent to a disaster area which has nothing to do with the church and alot to do with trump and travelling internationally and learning to be culturally open.

I have never seen mormons travelling outside of the US. If they did not travel on their missions, they would go to college, get married at 20, have children while handling 3 different church callings. When they are grandparents, they visit their grandchildren.

All of my children have traveled internationally without their mother and with very little resources. They have learned. The world is open to them. They became adults having that reassurance that they could live in a strange place, learn cultures, learn people. It used to be back in the 1800s you toured the world. Ah, well.

Anon 3 Wrote:
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> It used to be back in the
> 1800s you toured the world. Ah, well.

That's how I thought of mine and how I think of hers. The church just muddles the water with convincing their youth that they are doing great things. Outside of helping people with real problems I can't think of anything else they are doing for others than themselves. Many return more close minded having hated the culture they had to traverse to win a mate.

Back in the 60s and into the 70s missionaries were treated like volunteers. But then their status changed to slaves...

My impression is that Spencer Kimball was quite the martinet.

When he transformed the mission from a voluntary endeavor into a formal obligation, he eliminated any need for the church to "market" the program. It was all downhill from there.

I think he played a significant role in eliminating individuality and individual freedom from the church.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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> I think he played a significant role in
> eliminating individuality and individual freedom
> from the church.

And a personal calling. He eliminated the individuality of each Mormon person feeling called to serve or being approached by an inspired leader seeing someone who might benefit from serving in some capacity.

He lowered the bar and leveled the playing field to the point of being a bane to all those for whom their religious fervor and/or personality doesn't justify a call.

Fine for the Mormon royalty to feel all of their sons need to go, quite different for the low level Mormon with no chance of leadership. It became a commandment from Hell. It made Mormonism into something like Jehovah's Witnesses thinking every member a missionary or else they are considering themselves and all possible believers amongst their gentiles lost and filling membership with guilt.

No more was it a happy message to get out to the world but a program to be placed into and forced to go. It was shackled with guilt and fraught with authority abuse.

But that is also the evolution of the church.