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Posted by: Josephina ( )
Date: June 11, 2018 09:32PM

So many professionals (Egyptologists, Archaeologists, Historians, Bible Scholars) have good laughs over it. How is the embarrassment tolerated?

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: June 11, 2018 09:57PM

"We don't know how Joseph got the sacred text for the BoA. It might have come through pure revelation. We'll find out in the next life. Now please shut up and don't ask me about that again!"


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Posted by: Josephina ( )
Date: June 11, 2018 11:40PM

You do sound like a real TBM.

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Posted by: S.H. ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 04:09PM

It sounds like you read the bs response on We don't know how he did it. Just believe and pay tithing. I can't read those without getting mad, bc it's such bs.

They're not embarassed about it, bc they are in complete denial.

My favorite is how joseph smith drew in a human head on Anubis' body. Clear fraud committed by Joseph Smith.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: June 11, 2018 09:57PM

They actually believe that they’ll have the last laugh.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: June 11, 2018 10:02PM

He was only writing inspired scripture as a man.

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Posted by: Politic ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 01:25AM

Mark 16:15 "Go and preach the gospel to every creature" (everyone, the whole world)
If they, as bible- believing Christians didn't believe
that applied to black people, then they can easily ignore the Book of Abraham evidence.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 05:20AM

There are even faithful Mormon scholars who will tell you that
the BOA was definitely not written by Abraham. You don't need
the papyri to know that. What's in the text itself is a dead

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Posted by: slskipper ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 05:23AM

These days, I doubt whether even half of active Mormons have ever read it. They have no idea what it says. All they know is that they are supposed to testify of it because JS claimed it came from God.

Or am I mistaken?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 07:03AM

You are right.

I think educated Mormons don't read their scriptures much, generally, because they are busy and because history has not been kind to the books.

And if those Mormons do read, the BoA is way down the list. Maybe the BoM or perhaps the D&C. But the church hasn't emphasized Abraham for decades, so people don't pay it much attention.

It's basically an uncomfortable reminder of the crazy aunt in the attic.

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Posted by: Warren Jeffs ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 06:04AM

There is one Mormon I have debated this with who thinks Joseph Smith got his translation right and that is evidence of his prophetic calling.He thinks it is an amazing story to tell and and has not the slightest idea or car what any non Mormon Egyptologists have said about the book of Abraham.

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Posted by: anono this week ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 06:55AM

The educated mormons are mostly concerned about the hieroglyphics pictures and translation of that, the story is fine. But any Egyptologist can give his opinion that the pictures are for something completely different than what Old Joe said. So educated Mormons stay way clear of this finding and try to change the subject.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 09:35AM

As my handle implies, I direct their attention to Facsimile 3. The characters above the head, hand, etc. are mostly alphabetic and can be read by scholars today in the same way that Greek, Hebrew, German, English, etc. characters are read. There is no need for revelation to know that Joseph Smith could not read ancient Egyptian.

The power of this falsifying evidence cannot be overstated, since Facsimile 3 was translated and published by Joseph Smith without any questions around provenance, scribes, or ambiguous meanings, and it is still part of LDS canon today.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2018 01:18PM by Facsimile 3.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 09:48AM

Quick web reference:

An excellent book on the topic: The Joseph Smith Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition by Robert K. Ritner Ph. D

I also enjoy bringing up the spike on Omilah's head. This is clearly an ear from Anubis in a damaged portion of the papyrus that was incorrectly restored as a spike (WTH?!).

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 05:30AM

Facsimile 3 Wrote:
> Quick web reference:
> /sbi/articles/Dialogue_V33N04_107.pdf
> An excellent book on the topic: The Joseph Smith
> Egyptian Papyri: A Complete Edition by Robert K.
> Ritner Ph. D
> I also enjoy bringing up the spike on Omilah's
> head. This is clearly an ear from Anubis in a
> damaged portion of the papyrus that was
> incorrectly restored as a spike (WTH?!).

The original woodcut still exists for facsimile 3. The
Anubis/Olimlah character evidently had a snout (like a jackal)
which was whittled down. On the woodcut you can see how it's
been chipped away to make a rounder, more-human face. But
there's absolutely, positively no question that the original had
a representation of jackal-headed Anubis.

And, of course, the fact that JS identified the BLACK character in the vignette as a "slave" is a give-away to what was going on in JS's head. JS grew up in a country that had black. African slavery--a racial based slavery. Although slavery did exist in Egypt it wasn't racially based as was American slavery.

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 09:02PM

Thanks for sharing, Baura, I was not aware of that. Any idea where the original woodcut is today?

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Posted by: Facsimile 3 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 09:11PM

Still curious about the location of the original lead/woodcuts, but was happy to find the analysis out at Mormon Think. Thanks again for the lead, Baura!

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 04:58PM

Never underestimate the power of denial.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: June 12, 2018 05:04PM

The New York Times published a 2 page article on the Book of Abraham 29 Dec 1912.

So being scientifically exposed for over 100 years has no effect, I doubt much more proof will help.

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Posted by: lilburne ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 04:25AM

I think there are two big issues here for TBMs:

1. Most simply do not know - most TBMs i knew (especially the 'sisters' simply did not do doctrine - i suspect this is because Moism is culturally focused on male priesthood dominance and the women know their place and don't go into the doctrine space as a result (a bit like the way the Taliban manage education for girls). As a result a large portion of mormonism simply does not engage with the BOA at all, which means it's kind of like talking about a person they don't know. They might hear things but in not knowing them it is largely irrelevant to them.

When i've discussed the BOA the response has largely been one of blank looks and the assumption that if they ever looked at whatever that thing was they'd find some sort of answer because the fuzzies of LDS social life means it must be true, so nothing to see here.

2. These are the people in the know. These are usually aware of the issues to some extent and here i've seen everything from outright denial to a form of issue blindness.

One woman i debated with kept saying that we do not know what was on the missing portion of the papyri. I pointed to the facsimiles explaining we know what they say though. Each time i did this she asked where those items were on the papyri as if that somehow mattered and made a difference. She could not seem to mentally process that having the printed facsimiles in the scriptures presented a real problem. It was like unless they have the papyri version all of the problems simply do not exist.

The others are those who lean on the apologetic arguments - i think this is where we all differ from them. It requires an assumption of truth in the face of rationality to still believe the BOA true in the face of the evidence. TBMs hinge on it's true first and therefore the evidence must fit that world view. Thus if the papyri are different then it is because Smith got it from another source, even if that idea seems to conflict with the original claims and upends the value of having Gold Plates passed down through time.

All in, i suspect those TBMs walk a fine line. They're inches from realisation and are likely to be the ones who wake up one day with an epiphany realising it doesn't make sense and the world crashes.

As a result of the two groups above, this is why i think Mormonism will continue for a good while. We could call them the 'don't know, and don't care' groups as far as evidence goes.

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: June 13, 2018 06:14PM

You really think most members of any educational group have read the scriptures?

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Posted by: Boyd K Packer ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 08:18AM

Unknown a Mormon man who thinks the views of non LDS Egyptologists are rubbish.

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Posted by: Leaving ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 09:22AM

A TBM once told me that it doesn't matter how we got the book. What really matters is what we learn from it.

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 05:26AM

So why not use comic books as scriptures? You can learn from those too.

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Posted by: Honest TBM ( )
Date: June 14, 2018 09:44AM

One of the most amazing things that this beloved True Church can have going for it is for people to see how super honest, transparent, and truthful the Church is about everything. That's what it means to be a True Church :) Thus in every honest Ward in the Church you will see people talking openly and frankly about the super amazing job that Joseph Smith did in translating into English the text and facsimiles' symbols which Abraham wrote upon the papyrus that Joseph Smith got from that antiquities dealer and which the Church now has in its possession :) If you happen to be in a Ward that isn't so super honest and straightforward with people super comfortable talking about this subject then that is such a shame. However that scenario of uncomfortability is certainly impossible to fathom actually happening so next time you are in Gospel Doctrine class don't forget to raise your hand and ask lots of questions about the Book of Abraham and how it showcased Joseph Smith's wondrous Seering skills.

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