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Posted by: Mormons are Hypocrites ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 09:47AM

A long time ago, when I was a TBM, I spoke to John Tvedtnes over the phone. I was looking into a "rumor" that the Church had a arranged ground-penetrating radar sweep over the Hill Cumorah. First I called Prof. Paul Chessman, who said: "I can't talk about that" and hung up the phone on me. Somebody said to speak to Tvedtnes, so I contacted him.

He was very honest with me. He said:

*The Church has arranged to have a sweep of the Hill Cumorah with ground-penetrating radar TWICE.

*They were looking for the remains of the Battle of the Hill Cumorah (where at least a MILLION Nephite men, women, and children, died) and the remains of the Stone Box: the box that contained the Gold Plates, Sword of Laban, and Urim and Thummim.

*NOTHING WAS FOUND, during both sweeps. Not one grave. Not any cavern filled with gold plates. NOTHING>

*They told Chessman and others to "keep it quiet".

Tvedtnes was, at that time, I think probably a "closet disbeliever" because he told me, which he wasn't supposed to do, and he was not apologetic about it.

WHY do non-believing Mormon scholars stay in the Church? I would say, take the example of Thomas Ferguson, a lawyer and very educated amateur archaeologist, who lost faith in 1967, but remained active, and continued to give lectures that defended the Book of Mormon, until his death. WHY? Two reasons:

*Mormon wife
*Mormon family
*(in some cases), the Church pays for my retirement and I don't want to mess that up.

Pretty simple.

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 12:11PM

And they were never there.


What the fictional "Battle of Cumorah" was modeled on:
https://www.ancient.eu/article/995/the-battle-of-the-catalaunian-fields/

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Posted by: Shinehah ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 01:03PM

No dead Nephites anywhere unless you want to count the cemetery in Nephi Utah. That town was called Salt Creek until 1882 when the name was changed to Nephi, so that's as ancient as any real Nephites get ;-)

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Posted by: Anon53 ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 01:30PM

Numerous leaders of the Mormon Church have taught since the earliest days of the Church that the Hill Cumorah in New York (the very same Hill Cumorah that Joseph Smith claimed he retrieved the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated from) is the very same Hill Cumorah which is mentioned in the Book of Mormon in Mormon 6:2 ( And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah , and there we could give them battle. ) where at least 230,000 men died in battle using steel weapons and armor.

However, this battle was about one tenth the size of the battle which took place at the same exact location approximately 1,000 years earlier when, according to Ether 15:2 "nearly two millions " of the Jaredites had their last great battle, also using steel weapons and armor.

Many self-proclaimed Book of Mormon scholars have told me over the years that "we don't really know the exact location of the Hill Cumorah spoken of in the Book of Mormon." The obvious reason they want to deny that Joseph Smith's Hill Cumorah is the same one that is mentioned in the Book of Mormon is simple; there is literally not a trace of evidence to support the claim that 2,230,000 men died in battle using steel weapons and armor at the tiny hill now owned by the LDS Church in the State of New York called Cumorah.

However, you will see by the following quotes that many Mormon Church leaders have taught (and continue to teach) that over 2,230,000 men did indeed die at THE Hill Cumorah in New York:

"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)

"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Wm. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)

"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)

"It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York. " (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Sept. 18, 1881 Journal of Discourses Vol. 22, pg. 224)

"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)

"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221) "The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)

"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.) "In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .

[Editor's Note: About 20 short paragraphs later this speaker says the following]

"This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)

Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7, also stated that Cumorah is in New York. "Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)

"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

"According to the Book of Mormon the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites--the Ramah of the Jaredites--must be regarded as a natural monument overlooking ancient and extensive battle fields. Around it early in the sixth century B.C., the Jaredites were destroyed. Here, also, a thousand years later, at the dose of the fourth century A. D., the Nephites met with practical annihilation in a battle which, whether judged by the importance of the changes it wrought in the affairs of one of the world's continents, or the number slain,a ranks as one of the world's great battles. In view of these Book of Mormon facts one would naturally expect to find some evidences in this section of the country for such wonderful historical events. Here one has a right to expect the evidences of military fortifications; for, though a thousand years had elapsed between the destruction of the Nephites and the discovery of America by the Europeans, still some military monuments would doubtless survive that length of time." (B.H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol.3, Ch.34, p.67)

"One of the most noted places in ancient American history was the land in which was situated the hill known to the Jaredites as Ramah and to the Nephites as Cumorah. In its vicinity two great races were exterminated; for it was there that the last battles were fought in the history of both peoples. There also the sacred records of the Nephites found their final resting place." (Elder George Reynolds, The Story of the Book of Mormon, Ch.69, p.325)

In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York. Here's an image of the original letter: https://imgur.com/a/idzKw

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Office of the First Presidency Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

October 16, 1990

Bishop Darrel L. Brooks Moore Ward Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake 1000 Windemere Moore, OK 73160

Dear Bishop Brooks:
I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.

The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.

The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.


Sincerely yours, (signed) F. Michael Watson Secretary to the First Presidency

The facts seem to indicate that the official stance of the LDS Church is that the Hill Cumorah in New York is the site of two major Book of Mormon battles which resulted in a combined body count of approximately 2,230,000 men, women and children. Considering the archaeological gold mine this place must be it's too bad the Church doesn't at least turn the site over to National Geographic to start some digging and recovery work on what must be the burial site of millions of bones and tons of primitive early American weaponry. Yeah, right.

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Posted by: Chicken N. Backpacks ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 01:53PM

You're missing the point: the remains of the bodies and weapons from these two great battles were carted off during the construction of a new planet somewhere in the Celestial Kingdom.

Hey, we got somebody else's dinosaurs when Earth was built, so why not?

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: June 16, 2018 05:02AM

Chicken N. Backpacks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're missing the point: the remains of the
> bodies and weapons from these two great battles
> were carted off during the construction of a new
> planet somewhere in the Celestial Kingdom.
>
> Hey, we got somebody else's dinosaurs when Earth
> was built, so why not?

The folk-doctrine that the dino fossils were from the other
"worlds" that the earth was made from is totally contradicted by
the new Endowment films which show the earth as a glowing,
molten mass which cools into solidity. This is consistent with
the discoveries of geology, but inconsistent with any fossils
surviving from other "worlds."

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Posted by: Babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 02:13PM

So, no cave with “wagonloads of gold plates” guarded by a leprechaun, er, I mean angel? I’m shocked. Good thing they checked twice.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 02:59PM

They can't very well claim that they don't know where the actual hill is, when it's that hill that Joseph Smith supposedly retrieved the plates from.

There should at least be the cave with the plates in it.

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Posted by: hatmagic ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 03:03PM

The evidence is being hidden from our eyes by a magical enchantment, similar to the ones used at Hogwarts.

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Posted by: PapaKen ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 04:18PM

O ye exmos of little or no faith!

What have ye against brainwashing and irrational beliefs?

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 04:45PM

Mormons say they believe that faith can move mountains. They sure are trying hard to believe they can move the Hill Cumorah.

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Posted by: elderpopejoy ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 08:59PM

All the bones and blades, bucklers and shields were moved way down under The Hill by a host of guardian spirits.

No high-tech detector will ever find them.

All that evidence has been moved below the hill, miraculously.

Have some faith ye Morons!

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Posted by: Anziano Young ( )
Date: June 15, 2018 10:33PM

Mormons are Hypocrites Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WHY do non-believing Mormon scholars stay in the
> Church? I would say, take the example of Thomas
> Ferguson, a lawyer and very educated amateur
> archaeologist, who lost faith in 1967, but
> remained active, and continued to give lectures
> that defended the Book of Mormon, until his death.

My journey out of the church began my freshman year of college, at a Lutheran university, where I discovered in the religion section of the main library one of Ferguson's books. My parents happened to see me reading it one day over winter break and told me to stop. I finished it anyway.

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: June 16, 2018 08:18PM

Even as a nevermo, I have often wondered this very same thing:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2018 08:18PM by cinda.

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Posted by: Hockeyrat ( )
Date: June 17, 2018 11:12AM

All the anti Mormon , other churches have been tampering with the remains for almost 2 centuries now. They’re so good, they didn’t even miss one piece of decomposing DNA from the soil to remove.( not)

Why would the church be dumb enough to spend money and time ( and attention) on looking for something that they knew wasn’t going to be there?

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Posted by: 6 iron ( )
Date: June 17, 2018 11:56AM

Didn't you know that the Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites, Mulekites... We're actually Hosts (artificial people from the TV show Westworld) and after the big story ending wars that they have been repaired...

And become #45 and his cult followers...

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Posted by: jett ( )
Date: June 17, 2018 12:03PM

Is the hill historic? Why don't they just excavate it (tear it down) to find out if there are any artifacts at all?

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Posted by: Mormons are Hypocrites ( )
Date: June 17, 2018 05:47PM

The ground penetrating radar would have found graves, bones, metal objects, certainly caverns. Nothing was found, according to Tvedtnes. Did the Church announce this? No, it was hushed it, with the participants told to "keep quiet". Chessman did. Tvedtnes did not,but sung like a canary (at least off the record).



jett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is the hill historic? Why don't they just
> excavate it (tear it down) to find out if there
> are any artifacts at all?

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: June 17, 2018 12:29PM

They know darn well JS was lying about a lot of things. They don't care. They prefer to spin, side track, hide or downplay evidence.

When they bought damaging documents from Mark Hoffman and thought they were real, did they add that to Sunday School? No, anything damaging gets locked away.

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