"Today, the Mormon Church teaches that the Negro is a child of Cain, and his black skin the mark of Cain. However, the time will come that the Mormon leaders in Utah will abandon this teaching and even claim they never taught it." (X.R. Oliver, "Lectures on Kosmonic Science, 8 September 1930, Theological Society, Berkeley, California)


To all readers: please know that 90% of Mormons under the age of 30, especially if they live outside the Morridor, have never heard of the Curse of Cain doctrine. Seminary and Institute teachers are now teaching it was "never a doctrine but some speculation and folklore by some of the Members". Not even kidding.

The old expression, “Lie, even if they have pictures!” should be mormonism’s Mission Statement.

Link?

Who is X.R. Oliver? Where may we find this article?

And once you have led us to the document, why does it matter? How does it excuse 150 years of explicit racism and decades more of implicit racism?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 09:37PM by Lot's Wife.

I don’t think the OP reference was trying to excuse anything.

wasn't it in the Sunday School and Seminary teaching manuals of that era?

I'm old enough to remember Sunday School in the late 60's. I don't remember there being anything in manuals about the doctrine.
All reasons for the ban were considered speculation and the final answer was always, we don't know but may find out someday.
When I was a teenager the subject was pretty much avoided.

I didn't always pay attention in church before my mission (nor during and after...), but I certainly remember a lot of emphasis on 'behavior' in the Pre-Existence being the determining factor regarding the circumstances of one's birth place, time and circumstances.

It was also extremely basic that the so called Negro race (as if they were genetically different!!) knew they'd screwed up in the Pre-Existence and had not earned the blessings they were being denied, but they all still wanted to come down into their reduced circumstances.

Me not being born White & Delightsome was what I'd earned, but then I'd be told, "Well, ghawd had you move next door Bishop Davis, so you must have done something right!" and I'd get a pat on the head...

Personally, my opinion, the cause of the loss of priesthood rights 'settled doctrine', as expressed in the final paragraph of the 1947 First Presidency letter on the subject:

"The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the Church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the premortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality and that while the details of this principle have not been made known, the mortality is a privilege that is given to those who maintain their first estate; and that the worth of the privilege is so great that spirits are willing to come to earth and take on bodies no matter what the handicap may be as to the kind of bodies they are to secure; and that among the handicaps, failure of the right to enjoy in mortality the blessings of the priesthood is a handicap which spirits are willing to assume in order that they might come to earth. Under this principle there is no injustice whatsoever involved in this deprivation as to the holding of the priesthood by the Negroes."
--http://mit.irr.org/1949-official-mormon-statement-on-blacks-and-priesthood

The cited 1930 reference is not really that startling. The same 1947 letter also follows a damning quote by BY with this pronouncement: "President Wilford Woodruff made the following statement: 'The day will come when all that race will be redeemed and possess all the blessings which we now have.'”

True.

But I could not find the article, the author, or any theological society in Berkeley at the time.

I would like to see a source.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 02:32AM by Lot's Wife.

http://saltlakecity191$.webs.com/0ONE.htm

SUBSTITUTE 2 FOR $

Apparently that year is banned, but scroll down about 5 paragraphs in the link after you modify it.

Yeah, I'm following the same leads. There are several references on ex-Mormon sites, also a few webpages. Poor Xerol apparently couldn't keep her middle name straight, nor her religion, and she apparently developed and has a patent on electrolysis.

There is also a page on dear X.R.O. written by "Aenon E. Moss."

Pretty impressive hoax, hoax though it be.

ETA: I'm apparently referring to the site you found.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 03:01AM by Lot's Wife.

Yes, googling Aenon E. Moss leads to some interesting findings. He apparently wants Mormons and JWs to convert to Bahai.

I am too tired to remember his real name. He converted from Mormonism to Bahai then to other stuff. He is always hitting on ex-Mormons to follow him.

Some of the links lead to a man named William Collins, sometime head of Baha'i International Library and director at the Wilmette Institute. He seems to have been a real person.

I'm not so sure about Aenon E. Moss/Mandy Moore, though, since that poster and some of his/her links seem unhinged. Like Ms. Oliver's "astral travels," career as a prophetess and beautician, etc., and the question whether dear Xerol's middle name was Richards (Franklin D. Richards family) or Robinson.

Anyway, interesting sleuthing. An anonymous promoter of Baha'i who sends us to a semi-substantial Collins and an enigmatic Mormon space traveler who prophesied about the Cain doctrine.

http://dahesh ism.webs.com/6.htm
Remove space in link. Scroll down towards bottom to section titled Bahai Faith

I think poster is our resident daheshist (psychic and other board names)

Edited for spelling error.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 03:14PM by nonamekid.

I remember the name you mention. Is that the same poster as today's spiritist?

Don't believe it is.

Thanks.

From "Caopedia" online:

.......................
BERKELEY LODGE OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is a business entity registered in the state of California under the legal form of DOMESTIC NONPROFIT. It can be found in the register by the DOS ID C0100137. The company was established and set into the register at 31st August 1922 and its current status is DISSOLVED.
......................


X orol Richards Robinson was born in Salt Lake City in 1889. She later married a man by the last name of Oliver, and then used her name as X orol R. Oliver. She was granted two patents from the U.S. Patent Office for an Electrolysis chair and apparatus, in 1930. She became a Baha'i sometime around that time, in Oakland. Her advertisements for electrolysis services, to remove unwanted hair, was published in "The Oakland Tribune" numerous times between 1925 and 1934. She died in Evanston, Illinois, in 1955; apparently a faithful Baha'i, since her death is mentioned in "Baha'i News" for that year. At that time, and still today, Evanston Illinois is the location of the National Baha'i Center of the United States.

The poster "Mandy Moore" was never a JW, never studied with the JWs, NEVER would become a JW. Was a Mormon at one time. Resigned.


Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True.
>
> But I could not find the article, the author, or
> any theological society in Berkeley at the time.
>
> I would like to see a source.

Perhaps you should reread your own posts. You initially said the fabled astral traveler X.R. Oliver spoke at the "Theological Society, Berkeley, California." I noted that there was no such organization, and you now speak of the "BERKELEY LODGE OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY." Theology is not the same as theosophy.

More broadly, why are you calling yourself Mandy Moore now instead of such earlier names as Xerol Oliver and Aenon E. Moss? And why do you think we would be interested in the Baha'i that you are constantly urging upon us?

Seems a lot like preaching, I'd think.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 06:25PM by Lot's Wife.

From "Caopedia" online:

.......................
BERKELEY LODGE OF THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY is a business entity registered in the state of California under the legal form of DOMESTIC NONPROFIT. It can be found in the register by the DOS ID C0100137. The company was established and set into the register at 31st August 1922 and its current status is DISSOLVED.
......................


X orol Richards Robinson was born in Salt Lake City in 1889. She later married a man by the last name of Oliver, and then used her name as X orol R. Oliver. She was granted two patents from the U.S. Patent Office for an Electrolysis chair and apparatus, in 1930. She became a Baha'i sometime around that time, in Oakland. Her advertisements for electrolysis services, to remove unwanted hair, was published in "The Oakland Tribune" numerous times between 1925 and 1934. She died in Evanston, Illinois, in 1955; apparently a faithful Baha'i, since her death is mentioned in "Baha'i News" for that year. At that time, and still today, Evanston Illinois is the location of the National Baha'i Center of the United States.

The poster "Mandy Moore" was never a JW, never studied with the JWs, NEVER would become a JW. Was a Mormon at one time. Resigned.






Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> True.
>
> But I could not find the article, the author, or
> any theological society in Berkeley at the time.
>
> I would like to see a source.

I was a member from the last 1970s to the late 1980s. Active during that time. When I discovered the Curse of Cain and priesthood-ban (which was just over when I joined), younger Mormons refused to talk about it. They'd walk away from me, and then shun me. However, Mormons over the age of say 40, all told me "It was from God, Negroes are the children of Cain". All of them. I asked quite a few Institute Instructors. All of them: "It was from God" except one I asked. I asked quite a few. I moved a lot and asked a lot: all but one said it was from God.

Only when I moved to Utah, and got to know a few "Sunstone" Mormons, did they say "No, the doctrine is not true". Only then. But the VAST great majority of active Members I asked in the 1980s believed in the doctrine still.



verdacht Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm old enough to remember Sunday School in the
> late 60's. I don't remember there being anything
> in manuals about the doctrine.
> All reasons for the ban were considered
> speculation and the final answer was always, we
> don't know but may find out someday.
> When I was a teenager the subject was pretty much
> avoided.

OK, this jogged a dim memory…

Posts occasionally appear on this subject; I can't tell if they're all by the same person.

Definitely nonsense. Check out the username:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1252723

Excellent catch.

Don't let those little flecks of history bother you.

Nope

I was taught this in the 70s. I’m sure some old timers still believe it.

I thought the curse of Cain was “it’s so big”.

In 2006 (12 years ago) I asked many LDS seminary students, as they came bouncing between the Seminary building and their high schools (Olympus High, Highland High, West High, etc.) "Have you ever heard of the Curse of Cain Doctrine?" Only 1 in 20 had heard of it. Some asked "What is that?" and I told them. Many said: "You are a LIAR...my Church would have NEVER taught anything like that!"

Mind you...that was 12 years ago. Those students are now in their mid-twenties.

The Curse of Cain Doctrine was always presented as "a doctrine of the Church". Mormons considered it part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as part of it as any other part. Ask active Mormons over sixty. If they are not "Sunstone" Mormon, they will confirm they were taught this from birth as doctrine. NEVER was it presented as "speculation" of the Brethren. NEVER!!!

You write that in 2006 you "asked many LDS seminary students, as they came bouncing between the Seminary building and their high schools (Olympus High, Highland High, West High, etc.)" various questions.

May I inquire why you were hanging out at seminary buildings waiting for the children to come "bouncing" out? Adults shouldn't do that.