So I had to change my name but I have been on here for awhile. I had a family member figure out who I was and it was kind of awkward. lol

Anyhow, about 3 years ago I left the church and I was terrified my TBM wife would divorce me and I wouldnt see my 2 kids as much. I have done everything to keep the peace and let her control my life along with our kids lives in order to do so. I dont drink, go shopping on Sunday, swim in our pool on Sunday and didnt end up buying a boat because it caused a huge fight about me using it on Sunday.

Well 3 years later we have recently both admitted we are not in love with each other anymore. I thought it would be so much harder but I am at peace. I am looking forward to the future and meeting someone thats actually in love with me and not the church.

I am stressed about our finances and all the money I will be loosing. Also extremely worried about the kids and how it will effect them. They are both under 8 years old. I feel like its best though, they shouldn't be raised in a home where 2 parents are just living together and not in love. I know my wife will want to move back out of state, especially since she wont be able to afford to live where we live (most expensive place in the US). So I dont know what will happen, part of me is ok with that because it might be best for the kids. I just need to be able to see my kids though and I am not sure what to do.

So here I am, hoping to get some encouragement that there is a light at the end of this tunnel. Thanks to all in the past who have been great with advice. Especially Boner (mostly because his name is easy to remember).

Much worse. I remember thinking, "I thought there was one area of my life that divorce wouldn't touch" and then that area would be touched by divorce. I'm not divorced actually, but according to those who know us, we are more emotionally divorced than anyone they know. I didn't get the divorce 20+ years ago as I just didn't have the emotional energy to do so. Then after many years, I realized that I was glad I hadn't as I NEEDED his insurance and I wouldn't have been able to go to my therapist. In the end, it has worked out best this way for us. He's gay, so for a long time, it didn't matter as far as either of us remarrying. I never plan on remarrying even if I've been in a relationship for 13 years.

Watch the finances very closely. That was my biggest downfall, but I was such a mess and I got no help from him. But I was a HUGE MESS. Get into therapy if you can.

My biggest piece of advice is to MOVE CLOSE TO YOUR KIDS if there is any way possible. If you are going to take a hit in pay, do it before the divorce so that you can use your reduction in pay in terms of how much you have to pay out in terms of spousal support if possible. BUT your kids NEED YOU THERE, not across country.

Get past the anger and hate as soon as possible for your kids and for yourselves. Believe me, there will be a lot of anger and hate. You'll be surprised how low some people can go. My nephew just got divorced and he was sure that it wouldn't get ugly. He was hopeful they could save the marriage. His brother finally gave him an ultimatum about getting a lawyer. His ex has been turning his oldest child against him. She won't see her dad, but she is over 18 now. The younger ones do see their dad regularly and are probably with him all summer since my sister is off summers and has them. People who you thought were your friends will no longer be your friends. You'll be SURPRISED and SHOCKED.

"If you are going to take a hit in pay, do it before the divorce so that you can use your reduction in pay in terms of how much you have to pay out in terms of spousal support if possible."

Beware: In certain states (e.g., California), there is something called "imputed income." I took a much lower-paying job right before my divorce, but the judge *imputed* to me the highest income that I had earned in the previous year, and I was stuck with a lower-paying (lower stress) job but high alimony and child support.

If you're in one of these states, I wouldn't take the hit in pay.

Take heart... my husband was where you are. It’s taken a lot of time and there has been heartache, but in the long run, it was the best thing that could have happened. My husband’s ex is nuts and he lost contact with his daughters for while, but now they are coming back. Keep your eye on the future and the long run. You can get through it. It will take time and effort, but you can do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2018 02:17PM by knotheadusc.

My parents were not in love for most, if not all, of my life and they finally divorced when I was 29. It's better to just divorce early in my opinion when the love is gone. I still can't feel real love to this day because of a loveless home, hard emotion to figure out and feel for me having no true example.

Get a top-notch divorce lawyer NOW. Raise your concerns with the lawyer (wife will probably move out of state, you are worried about having adequate access to your kids, your concerns about their religious upbringing when living with you and when living with her, etc.)

Also consider the fact that it is 2018. You have a right to joint custody at a minimum and even primary custody. Be open to all possibilities. Your (soon to be ex-) wife doesn't get to just take the kids and move away. There will be a lot of options on the table. Be fair to her, but resist any urge you might have to be overly generous in terms of money or time with your children. You have rights, too.

It sounds to me that divorce will make you happier in the long run. You've been living under your wife's thumb for far too long.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2018 02:32PM by summer.

Yes... summer is right. Do not let your ex dictate everything about the kids. Do not let guilt sway what is best for everyone. That was one thing my husband did wrong, although his ex is a special kind of crazy. I would hope most mothers aren’t as crazy as she is.

Not exactly what you were looking for, but I just wanted to let you know that with the new tax law change, you have to get divorced before the end of the year in order to be able to deduct alimony payments from your taxes going forward. If you finalize your divorce after Jan 1, you will lose the deduction.

Knotheadusc’s husband here, notamoron. If the two of you aren’t in love anymore, then my recommendation is to end it now. When I was going through the “troubles” with my ex-wife that ultimately ended in divorce, I was always worried about how it would affect my children, but really, this line we’ve been fed about “staying together for the sake of the children” has the potential to do more harm than good. Sometimes, divorce is better for them, if only to spare them discovering the obvious as they get older.

You would also do well to prepare yourself. You will be demonized, marginalized, blamed for everything, and otherwise made an Unperson. All of this happened to me. I endured it on the chance that I could maintain a relationship with my children regardless of my ex’s efforts to the contrary. But she moved them across the country and pressured them to disconnect from me. She used the church, and it was a willing accomplice. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the luxury to move closer to them, since I returned to Active Service. But being back in the Army assured them generous child support every month.

Fast forward 12 years and I’m reconnecting with my youngest daughter. You see, her mother’s mistreatment wasn’t focused solely on me. She’s treated my children the same way as they’ve gotten older. My daughter is learning the truth of it all now. We’ll see how this all ends.

I don’t know if you’re situation is close to mine or not, but I suppose my message to you as one who has been where you are is trust your feelings. Right now it’s best to think of yourself and your sanity. You’ll be no good for your children is you lose who you are. It’s alright to focus on establishing a solid, happy, and stable future for yourself that they can connect with when the time is right.

Good luck.

I have kept my family together through a divorce and through the process of leaving Mormonism. Here's a few tips that worked for me, and what has also worked for others:

Your children are the most important thing in your life, right now. You never know what the future holds for you, so concentrate on the present.

I understand that you probably can't give up your career, to move with your children. After all, your career will be supporting them for the next few years, and that makes it a very high priority! Also, your happiness in your job is high priority. You can have it all: family AND career. (If I can do that, anyone can)

If you don't move near your children, have a special room(s) for your children, with personalized things on the walls and shelves. Have them help you decorate. Insist on keeping your visitation! No, your children will NOT be required to attend the Mormon church, and don't have that contracted anywhere. You can specify that NO portion of your alimony or child support will be given to the Mormon church. Bishops have honored these requests.

Your wife probably thinks she will find a good Mormon husband and a temple marriage--LOL-LOL-LOL--sorry, there's a very low probability that this would ever happen. Now, what are YOUR goals? What are YOUR priorities? You will be free!

Please, keep constant contact with your children! Don't let it lapse, no matter how ugly things get. Cl2 is right, that you will probably lose all your Mormon friends. There will be gossip. You will be blamed 100% for the divorce. The Mormons will turn against you, including the Mormons in your own family. When they try to turn your children against you, don't panic, because you have Truth and Love and Actions on your side. All of these are more powerful than Mormon lies and threats. Be positive and encouraging to your children. As you know, Mormonism is full of negativity, despair, and hopelessness.

You must reassure your children that none of this is THEIR fault! Children are very self-centered, and they think everything has to do with them.

Your children will be overwhelmed with hateful Mormonism, coming from all sides. The cult and its members will try to brainwash your children into thinking YOU are following Satan. Primary will teach them that because YOU divorced their mother, they will not be in a forever family. My children were taught these things. They were taught that each of our little family members would "walk past each other as strangers" and be alone in the hereafter. This traumatized my children. You can't take this stuff lightly. Your children will need YOUR reassurance.

It is important to keep your personal integrity, and take a stand, that Mormonism is a hoax. Word it any way you want, in a brief statement, and repeat your stand briefly and quietly if necessary, but don't argue or debate with your (ex)wife or in-laws. This worked for my husband, who was the first in the family to leave the cult. He refused to give any more money to the church. He didn't support the activities and nonsense made-up to force parents to attend. He was active with the kids sports and school functions, and we had our own family activities. He made no interference in my attending the Mormon stuff with my children. Within a year--because of Mormon cruelty, ridiculous doctrines, polygamy, and fake scriptures--we were staying home with Daddy and having family fun together on Sundays. My children begged me to let them quit church!

You can inoculate your children from the Mormon trap. First of all, you need to get them talking about what is being thrust at them. Listen, listen, listen. If my children had not told me about those Primary lessons, we would not have been able to have meaningful dialogs, and sort it all out. My children never did fully believe in the JS story, and didn't believe in a church that would not allow Mother Theresa or their beloved school teachers into heaven. Get your children's perspective. Mormonism is total nonsense to a child who has not yet been brainwashed. My children were interested in science, had non-Mormon friends, and read and studied a lot, which helped them.

Rather than accuse their mother, or accuse the cult, you can help your children reason things out, and make sense of things. Always tell your children the Truth. Kids aren't stupid, and they feel uneasy around lies and manipulations. You need to be the safe harbor with the solid anchor for them!

--Give your children knowledge of the Truth, and of reality, in all subjects.
--Mormon babble is cheap. You might be the only adult who will LISTEN to your kids.
--Mormon "love" is strictly conditional. You can be there to give your children unconditional love, which is true parental love.
--Laugh and play with your children. There's nothing wrong with being a "Disneyland Dad."
--Call, text, face-time your children every day. If they don't have cell phones, give them some. Start now, to get them in the habit. I did this with my grandchildren, when they lived far away, and it became a habit. Your children will know you are thinking of them, and that you love them, and your bond will build over time.

Children are wiser than most Mormons give them credit for being, and unless they are threatened or beaten down in some way (the cult can sometimes do that), if they are allowed to follow their own instincts and observations, they can be wiser than Mormon adults.

Your instincts are good, too. Follow your heart. Don't let others discourage you.

Don't let anyone or anything come between you and your children. You will need to work at this.
I hope you don't think I'm weird, in encouraging you to gracefully ease your children out of the stranglehold of Mormonism--but I sincerely believe that the Mormons will create a wedge between you, like they did between you and your wife. You know about this.

I'm not a fan of your wife, so I think you are doing the right thing by divorcing her.

Here are some encouraging statistics for you!
--Mormon children who have married parents, one parent Mormon and one parent non-Mormon, are more likely to leave Mormonism.
--Children of divorced parents are more likely to leave the Mormonism.
--After divorce, the average divorced man's income increases by 50%, and the average divorced woman's income decreases by 50%.

I wish you could meet and talk to the families who have thrived outside the cult, and after their cult marriages ended. Their kids are so much happier now, are good, loving, successful, normal adults. My own family included.

Your future is bright. (((hugs)))

Do you have a source on the financial assertion, exminion? I don't have reason to doubt it, but it does seem extreme.

Also, does it assume the mother gets primary custody? If the father gets shared custody does the financial picture differ? How about if the father gets full custody?

Just spit balling it here because I am a divorced father with children. I pay alimony and child support. (their primary home is with their mother but we have joint custody)

Your income remains the same you still get paid the same amount, but since you are supporting two households (my term to inoculate myself because literally I am the sole source of income for two households) it doesn't stretch as far.

Truthfully I haven't seen a change in my disposable income, but I have had to cut back on some of my peripheral costs like Netflix and the like.

I'll add to what the divorced father above said. If you're staying because you can't afford it please consider the, literal, unhappy alternative.

Howdy, Notamoron, I’m still waiting for my boat ride, and I’ve got the beers chillin’. I had wondered how thing have been.

I stayed in a loveless marriage so that I could influence my children and be around them. They are the most important part of my life. Unfortunately, my wife and I are still roommates.

In hindsight, I don’t think staying with my TBM helped my kids. The opportunities I thought I would have for them, as teens and young adulds, never materialized. The Morg insured that I was shunned and that my kids knew that their Dad was an apostate.

See, I found my oldest’s patriarchal blessing. In it were lots of references to me coming back to the truth. My child was told to help me regain a testimony. Fuck that!

Please, for your benefit, meet with a divorce attorney and start planning your future. Mormonism destroys marriages and your wife, just like mine, has made her choice—the cult comes first.

Very best wishes! The Boner

BYU Boner Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Howdy, Notamoron, I’m still waiting for my boat
> ride, and I’ve got the beers chillin’. I had
> wondered how thing have been.
>
> I stayed in a loveless marriage so that I could
> influence my children and be around them. They are
> the most important part of my life. Unfortunately,
> my wife and I are still roommates.
>
> In hindsight, I don’t think staying with my TBM
> helped my kids. The opportunities I thought I
> would have for them, as teens and young adulds,
> never materialized. The Morg insured that I was
> shunned and that my kids knew that their Dad was
> an apostate.
>
> See, I found my oldest’s patriarchal blessing.
> In it were lots of references to me coming back to
> the truth. My child was told to help me regain a
> testimony. Fuck that!
>
> Please, for your benefit, meet with a divorce
> attorney and start planning your future. Mormonism
> destroys marriages and your wife, just like mine,
> has made her choice—the cult comes first.
>
> Very best wishes! The Boner

Boat ride will be coming soon now that I will be free. My kids are also my #1 priority now and it crushes my heart knowing I wont see them daily like I do now but I know its temporary and that living with a controlling TBM is not going to work.

So since me and my wife discussed not being in love and potentially separating she has asked if we can see a marriage counselor. For the sake of our 2 children I agreed. We agreed to it not being a LDS counselor. Few days later it changed to her saying she has a lot of built up anger inside for me leaving the church and she wants to see a LDS marriage counselor because only they would understand (typical controlling behavior from her).

I agreed, mostly because it is her that needs the help and also because I feel like I checked out already. Crossed a line that I am not going back to. I dont love her, I admitted it out loud with her and it felt good, not bad. Like I was free.

Question is do I go to an LDS Marriage counselor with her and waste both of our times knowing its not going to work? Suggest she see one by herself? Thoughts and experiences?

I’d go with her. I’ve been to several LDS marriage counselors with my wife. They’ve all said the same thing—your husband has a right to attend, or not attend church, can you move forward with your marriage if he chooses not to participate?

She always said yes. And that’s the problem. It’s easy to say, but the behaviors have remained stable—the church and her parents always come first (even more than our kids), tithing gets paid even though she has credit card debt, she thinks sex is animalistic, and there is no shared plan for moving on?

I used to think that I was the problem, I’m not. We’re dealing with a brutal cult that’s very demanding of its loyalities.

I went with my (ex) wife to an LDS counselor right after we separated. I made it VERY CLEAR to the counselor from the start that I was not there to reconcile with my wife (that relationship was long over) but instead was there for advice on the well being of our kids. He would meet with us together and individually. At every appointment he would try to steer things towards repairing/building a relationship with my wife. Each time I would shut him down, tell him that I had no interest in that, and would ask for advice for dealing with my kids. This greatly frustrated him, and he never did give me any useful help. After three or four sessions I was done with him. I don't know if my wife saw him much longer either.

Big bro-hugs! The children will benefit from a Dad who loves them and spends quality time with them. In time, they’ll probably realize that they have two loving and caring parents whom they love and respect equallly. It’s hard, but remember not to say anything negative or too personal to the kids about their Mom or the marriage. They’ll figure things out, mine did.

Stay in touch, B — Boner

It’s weird how Mormonism turns your wife into someone you wouldn’t want to be married to.

Where is the 'Like' button on this site?

It will be hard at first, because of the major transition you and your family will be going through.

Try to be as stable as humanly possible even when you feel like falling apart at the seams. For your children's sake and yours.

My parents divorced in my teens. They'd been in a loveless marriage for a long time, saying it was for the sake of the children. I'm not so sure it was but then I had a relationship with them both. And went to live with my dad at 15 instead of staying with my mother.

Expensive cost of living areas are harder to justify when your income gets whopped in half suddenly. So it does make sense to relocate somewhere less expensive.

Best wishes to you and yours. You're going to need all the support you can muster and then some.

I have to disagree with CI2's advice, when she said to move to wherever your wife moves to, so that you can be close to your kids.

I disagree, because I had the same idea when my wife divorced me, moved away, and took the kids.

I applied for a job in the Utah town where she had moved to, and was offered the job. I was really tempted to take it ("I'll see my kids more often!"), but then I realized that the job was not really what I needed, so I reluctantly declined the offer.

It was a good thing I did, because within a year the wife had remarried and moved with him to his new job in Iowa.

I would have been stuck in Utah! And still not seeing my kids.

notamoron, I think the entire situation sucks, and I wish you nothing but the best in resolving it.

By way of consolation, I can add something: my parents divorced when I was 14, my TBM mother divorcing my inactive father (essentially at the insistence of our bishop). We three kids mostly turned out OK, though there were a few rough times.

Oldest is still (sadly) TBM. And then some.
Middle (me) got out right after my mission.
Youngest was out mentally before graduating high school (yes, I had something to do with that). But even the TBM is a good parent to his huge mormon brood, we all turned out OK and had good relationships with our dad. So it's not all bleak when it comes to your kids' future.

Hang in there.

Thanks everyone, the support here is amazing and I wish I had written earlier. All great advice.

Can't imagine the courage it takes to do what you are doing. So much to deal with that I never had to worry about. Good vibes coming your way.

RB

Something about all this bothers me.

First, the assumption that you should divorce because you don't "love" each other and kids shouldn't be in a home where parents don't "love" each other.

What the hell is "love"?

Apparently there is this notion that you should constantly be holding hands and sharing your most intimate thoughts and having pillow talk and make doilies together to be in "love".

BS. You don't have to share everything to be in love. You certainly made kids together - you would think that would be enough to be in love.

If you need more "love" (whatever that is), join a club or something. Or spend more time with your kids. Or get a dog.

For most people, falling in love means you will get something from someone. You think you will find someone who will love you, not the church. Well, what is "you"? "You" is your money, and your looks and alot of other stuff besides your soul. Do you think the next woman would marry you if you were a janitor and looked different or were shorter or whatever?

There's a good chance it won't turn out any better than what you currently have. You and wife are living in fantasy land.

Second, why is it assumed that the wife can be allowed to blow up the family, kidnap the kids, and go across the country? And why do you think that would be good for them, considering they would rarely see you? Do you have any idea what you mean to your kids?

If some bitch pulled that with my kids, there would be hell to pay. I mean, I thought we lived in a patriarchal society in which men were in control, and then guys roll over and put up with this BS. Let me repeat - there is NO WAY IN HELL MY WIFE WOULD TAKE MY KIDS!!!!!!

Years ago my wife sat down with me on the patio and told me that apparently I didn't care about her and we should probably get divorced. I think I hadn't washed the dishes or something and she had gone to visit her mom, who she later admitted was badmouthing me. I also had switched careers and wasn't making much money.

Anyway, I told her, fine, she can leave, but I'm not leaving and neither are the kids. I also told her we should go in the house right now and sit down with the kids and she can explain to them, with me present so she couldn't lie, why she wanted to blow up the family and take them away from their dad.
She sat on the patio for a while thinking and finally said maybe we could work it out. That was 20 years ago.

Things were never the same. From that and other experiences, I saw then that marriage wasn't about love for the person, but love of whatever they could provide. We haven't been close since. I eventually started sleeping in the basement (we sleep better separate). Occasionally have sex.

We are friendly but don't do much together. She has her interests and I have mine. She does house work, I maintain yard, vehicles, etc. I have a small farm. Now we're having grandkids and it's great having her around. Funny that once you expect nothing from someone, you seem to appreciate them more.

Now if you can't stand to be in the same room together, or she is a lunatic, I would say blow it up. But if it was me, I would take control of your life. Tell her they are your kids also, and she won't be taking them away. Start living your own life. Not necessary to drink or whatever, but you can do as you please. Spend more time with the kids.

You think you are pleasing her by bowing to her whims, but ironically, many women find that unattractive. They want an assertive man.

I'm not sure what discussions you've had with her, but I would tell her the following.

Tell her she never considered you her first love. First was the church, then her family, then her children and then you. She wanted you for money, labor and image in the church and family. Explain the whole concept of tribalism and how she is a gang member first. She clings to a group for survival. The larger group trumps her marriage. You were never truly committed to each other.

(I could be wrong and she does want to sit in meetings and practice polygamy for eternity, but I doubt it)

Tell her Satan wanted to force people to be church members, rather than have free agency. You have chosen to not do church, but she, like Satan, wants to force you back, by using threats and guilt, shame, anger, manipulation, all of which is psychological coercion. She does not believe in free agency. She is of the devil.

Tell her that true love is seeing people be happy. If church makes her happy, you are happy for her. If church doesn't make you happy, does she prefer you be miserable? Does she want you to be miserable for eternity? And if church was for everyone, then what's the point of free agency?

Tell her she can keep doing the church thing, but you are going to do what interests you, which is what a good God would want, to see his children happy.

Tell her the most important thing to you is your kid's happiness. And kids need to feel secure, and you are going to give them that. You are not going to let them be uprooted.

She can take off if she pleases and find someone that will provide her the image she needs to impress her gang. She can put her own needs ahead of her family, in order to impress the church which is supposedly for the family!

Right on!

Your post is pretty cynical. Plenty of women fall in love with their man's soul rather than their money. I sure did.

When I met my husband, he was living on $600 a month in a drafty studio apartment. His ex wife was getting $2550 a month in child support, as well as alimony. He'd been through bankruptcy and eventually went through foreclosure when he couldn't keep paying mortgage on the money pit house she'd insisted on buying.

My husband's ex wife is a narcissistic nightmare who constantly worked to sabotage his career and didn't seem to care that not only did she screw him and his kids over, she also screwed herself. She is now on her third husband and has five kids by three different men. Divorce was absolutely the best thing my husband could have done for himself.

Yes, it's true that a lot of men lose contact with their kids. It costs money to go to court and hire lawyers. It takes time out of the workday. My husband was in the Army and had to move where the Army sent him. It was his career. Should he have fought harder for his kids? Personally, I would have. But I can see why he made the choices he made. Overall, they weren't bad choices, especially since his children are now seeing the truth about their mother. I only wish he'd never met her. But then, if he hadn't met her, some other woman would have married him and probably treated him better. He might be "enduring" a marriage rather than truly enjoying being with someone he actually loves.

Some people are just plain unreasonable. Narcissists are great at winning people over and convincing others that they are victims. That is what happened in my husband's case. He could have spent a lot of time and money on court, but it's likely the end result would have been similar and he would have wound up poorer. Sometimes, the best thing to do is cut bait and save oneself.

There are people out there who only care about what another person can give them or do for them. Count me among those who want a spouse with substance. My husband was broke when we met, but things have improved remarkably. We have been together almost sixteen years and I love him more today than I did on our wedding day. I would never dream of leaving him. There are other women like me out there. I think it's worth seeking out a partner you "love", rather than simply enduring someone for the sake of the children.

Your mileage may vary, of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2018 01:47AM by knotheadusc.

Free Man, I get where you are coming from but I feel like whats ok for some is not ok for all. Some can live a loveless marriage and be ok with it. Others cant. Me and my wife cant. Love is a lot more than just holding hands, making out and practicing making babies. Your marriage sounds like its more out of convenience than anything and I feel sorry for you as that is what I dont want and am looking to end.

You are right about her being in a gang, her mormon gang family is more important than me. She has made that clear and now that I know that I dont want to be part of it. I am getting out. Just trying to find the best way to do so with out everything imploding.

There will be an implosion, whether you try to dodge it or not. The best you can hope for is enough steady that you eventually come out the other end with a semblance of stability.

I got a divorce after nearly 15 years of marriage. My kids ranged from Jr. High down to elementary school. It was hard, especially at first. Although we tried to make it as amicable as possible, but sometimes that wasn't the case. Still, I tried very hard never to say derogatory things about my ex to the kids. I just kept repeating that they did nothing wrong and we both loved them.

Get a good attorney, but do a lot of the heavy lifting between yourselves if you can. That means agree to the division of the assets and debts up front. Arguing about them between attorneys will only eat up any assets you have.

Since you've already gotten to the point of wanting out, don't waste any time or money on counseling. In my experience, it's like finding out the church is a terrible scam. Most can't go back and pretend to believe again.

+1000
I'm INTJ and could not fall in love to save my life.

Free Man, thank you for your post. I also am in a loveless marriage. I am gradually coming around to a mind set similar to yours as you so ably articulated. I was initially quite upset when I realized my wife had limited affection for me, but she still has the qualities that attracted me to her all those years ago. Years of spousal neglect have naturally eroded my feelings for her. I guess we are in a case of like, rather than love.

I know that she could tire of our situation and decide to divorce me. As we are both retired, there is no financial advantage to me getting the jump and applying for divorce myself. When I was working, I often used the old saying, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Life is good. It could be better, but it could also be worse. The upside is smaller than the downside. Luckily we live far enough away from church that religion has become unimportant in our lives.

I am not sure why you would want to go to a marriage counselor. It seems like the only thing to discuss is how you are going to go about divorcing.

Perhaps there are counselors who specialize in helping couples through divorce, but since divorce is often an adversarial process, I wonder about the conflict of using a divorce counselor when both of you are represented by attorneys.

As for your wife's anger, that belongs to her. Only she can decide how she is going to deal with it. I would take no ownership or responsibility for that at all.

It sounds like your wife wants to drag you before a counselor who is on her side so that she can force you to listen to her rant. Part of deciding that you are going to divorce is that you don't have to listen to your wife's rants.

I think that you should focus a bit more on what you need from this process and let your wife focus on what she needs. Hopefully both of you will also be focusing on what your kids need, but don't count on it.

Get a good lawyer and stop going along with all of your wife's demands. There is a reason that you are getting a divorce.

I'm wondering as well as some of those above have stated, have you looked into all options carefully before divorce? The post seems like you may be eager to have new fun with a replacement. First just because one is tbm and the other is not doesn't mean you have to divorce. Every marriage has problems at one time or another. No one is perfect.

Have you tried a separation, and then see if you want to hook back up later?

falling out of love is not a good reason for divorce. Society has changed. It use to be that there had to be "grounds" for divorce but that all changed in the laws during the 1960s and consequently women started looking to the government as their husband.

Also consider what sort of women are likely going to want to get in with a guy with child support and a second housepayment and piles of bills. It may very well be a women who has her own set of baby daddies, entitlements, health problems, delinquent debts that she'll expect you to pay for, you'll have to deal with all of that. And there could also be adhd kids that may not be inclined to listen to a step father.

Or it could be a woman like me... I met my husband when I was in grad school. He is my first husband. I have no children and, in fact, couldn’t have any with him because he got snipped when he was with his ex wife. Hell, I was even a virgin on my wedding day and I was thirty years old.

We have yet to own our own home. He went through bankruptcy and foreclosure and paid a lot of child support for years. I tolerated military move after move, and was never able to launch the career I trained for because of all the moves. His children were extremely alienated and hateful, too.

And yet, I wouldn’t trade my husband for anyone else and I doubt he’d trade me. We will celebrate our sixteenth anniversary this year and we continue to work as a team and have fun seeing the world. I couldn’t have asked for a better husband.

There are a lot of good people out there looking for spouses. I would certainly recommend being careful before leaping into another serious relationship, but there’s no reason to stay in an empty marriage because of a lack of suitable partners. They are everywhere, if you open your eyes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2018 07:39AM by knotheadusc.

A very good post.

I have seen women marry a man that was a little down on his luck and maybe not bringing in a lot of money at the time. The men that changed their circumstances and made more money the wife stuck around and stayed married. The men that remained poor or even became worse off, the women divorced.

Don’t have much time, but another thought came to me.

Spouses fall out of “love” when the other quits church. Does that also happen when a child quits?

Should you divorce your kid when they exercise free agency?

What if you want them to be a doctor and they choose sewer repair? Cut them off?


What’s the difference between that and leaving spouse over religion?

Get a good lawyer! Make sure your attorney is on your side!

notamoron, relocate so that you are able to maintain a relationship with your children. Even if it means moving to Utah, Idaho or Arizona, do it.

I've changed my thinking on this subject.

I talked to a guy at work who was in this position 30 years ago. He quit church and his wife was a serious TBM.

They decided to split while they lived in Seattle. She took their 1 year old girl back to Utah.

I asked him if it wasn't hard to watch his wife drive away with his little girl, and he said it was hard, but it was for the best.

I asked how often he saw his daughter after that, and he said about once a year.

So apparently a lot of dads aren't that interested in their kids, and don't care to fight for them. I guess kids for many people are like having a dog - fun to play with, but not that big a deal. Or maybe they like dogs more - this guy is really into his dogs.

So never mind.

Families are a joke, even in the church.

So never mind.

Don’t be ridiculous. It’s not always that simple. Plenty of guys would like to see their children more often but can’t for any number of logistical reasons. In my husband’s case, it was a combination of having no money for travel or lawyers and a psycho ex who pretty much forced his kids to disown him. If you have never dealt with a narcissist— particularly a narcissistic mother with custody— you have no idea. You also have no right to judge anyone else’s situation but your own.

Fortunately, my husband’s daughters are grown and know the truth about what happened. I guess if there’s anything to be learned, it’s be careful about sharing your DNA and don’t make babies with crazy people.

My married life is much like Boner's or Free man's. The first year of marriage was fantastic then after we had a child, it has been a loveless marriage for the past 16 years. Her personality and attitude just changed for some reason and she takes out all her anger on me. I put up with it for years but now I fight back so the smallest argument quickly escalates to a FU fight.

Take in mind, I have done a lot to try to fix the marriage and occasionally she admits how badly and unfairly she has treated me and apologizes. But the apology is hollow as she always goes right back to her nasty, mean behavior within a few days of the apology.

I should have got divorced years ago but I never wanted anyone to say that I stuck her with 2 kids. One of them is very difficult so I can't morally leave her with that burden. But I dream every day of leaving her when the troubled child is out of the house in a couple years.

Oh what a wasted life I've led. I am an easy-going guy that makes a fair amount of money and I could have been so much happier if I had married almost anyone else. By the time I get out of this nightmare marriage I will have missed the best years of my life and will have to more or less start over with not much to show for it as my wife has spent like crazy. No debt but not nearly the assets I should have accumulated given my career.

Kids will be OK but that is the sacrifice I have made. I thought of my kids instead of my own happiness.

+1
Sounds identical to my situation. I have a really close relationship with my two kids. My oldest has thanked me heartfully for not leaving, as he suspects that he would be the next focus of my wife's wrath. My youngest has developmental issues and I spend lots of time with him (my wife would be fine doing nothing for him).
I stay out of love for my boys.

"I thought of my kids instead of my own happiness."

I have so much respect for you. Sounds like you've lead an absolutely amazing life. Treat yourself good & celebrate what you've done for your kids!

Ouch. Similar situation here. And I am currently going through a divorce myself. Tough times. I wish you the best.

No matter how many factors you think you're aware of, and can thus make more reliable predictions, you'll never know for sure what the right decision was.

I did the RM/BYU thing, arriving in mid-semester in 1967 and was 'engaged' by Christmas, with marriage at the end of the following spring semester. Then we had our first child within three weeks of our first anniversary. Yay ghawd!

Seven years later I divorced her. We were living in Los Angeles; she (well, the Elders) packed up her belonging and she and our now three children drove to Dallas, TX. Thereafter I saw the kids once a year, during the summers. But five years into this, the middle child said FU to her mother and the church and came to live with me. The youngest also said FU to his mother but continued to live with her because (I think) he figured he could get away with more than he could have with me.

Only the oldest child (who'll be 50 next year!!!) continued to drink the kool-ade.

Their mother is now deceased. At the end she'd become a burden to the three of them and they finally all pitched in to make up the difference between her SS money and what a cheap Provo assisted-living facility was charging. None of them wanted her living with them.

In the interim, I've been asked by two of my kids (not the TBM) to go live with them. My son (Provo) and I talk golf and life weekly. The daughter I got to raise lives in Colorado with her husband, guns, and dogs. One of her two kids lives with her, having just graduated from college. My daughter and I also speak weekly.

I think the differences in the lives of her parents has my TBM daughter confused. Her mother was a faithful TBM and had what can only be considered a 'lousy life', with poor health and despite being a BYU grad, never a good job. While I, a ghawdless heathen, have had what can only be labeled a "Fun" life. All I've cared about is laughing, eating well, driving fast cars and just generally having fun. (Obviously, I am off my rocker since I play golf for fun!) Since about 1990 I wake up every morning and get dressed to play golf.

The point to my obvious bragging at how the church sure called the outcome of the lives of my BYU temple bride and myself completely wrong, is that you simply cannot predict with any real accuracy just what is going to happen after a divorce. Maybe there are statistics... But if statistics were accurate predictors, why would they bother running the horse races? Am I a complete outlier? Who the hell knows. And certainly, at this point, I don't think about it, except when it gives me a chance to poke fun at the church.

I say give your kids one of the greatest gifts you're capable of offering them, a happy father.

I strongly agree with your last sentence. Staying together for the kids shows them only about dysfunctional relationships. That will be what they learn.

Under the assumption that you, DE, were addressing me, it comes to mind that you may have misunderstood my final sentence: "I say give your kids one of the greatest gifts you're capable of offering them, a happy father."

The reference was to me. I was their happy father because I did NOT stay with my BYU temple bride. I left and found what it was that I found... But of course, there are no guarantees that what you find, or what finds you, will be happy. I just think that taking the chance to find something better is the healthier option.

I was agreeing with your sentiment that giving them the gift of a happy parent is far better than showing them a parental relationship of two unhappy people. Like you said, there's no guarantee, but also agree that taking the chance to find something better IS the healthier option.

It doesn't have to be about showing them what a dysfunctional relationship is.

It can be about showing them how a functional, thoughtful, reflective, wise person deals with a person/partner who is struggling through life. Of course, that means you have to be that person, which may take a lot of work.

I've seen someone do that in their relationship. Over time, the enlightened partner was able to smile into the neurosis being spewed by the other partner. There was no oxygen to feed the fire. And slowly, the insanity faded. She changed. The family healed.

It's one path. It can happen.

^^^ I love this.

My parents’ marriage was dreadful. The fights were terrible. But, they didn’t deride the other one to us kids. Mom never demeaned Pop’s character, nor his intelligence, nor his appearance. No!—-She attributed all of his egregious flaws to being a Virgo.

I say get a dog or cat, they will give you unconditional love forever that will never change.

Plus they will give you kisses, wait at the door for you to get home, don't talk to much or spend to much of your money.

Bonus......you can even sleep with more than one!!

Literal sleep.... not euphemistic (I hope)

Of course..it was a joke. Many people's dogs sleep in bed with them.

The board needs emojis.
I knew what you were saying. :)
I thought I’d be a smart ass tho...

I’m wondering why you think you’ll remain anonymous this time after all that detail. Anyhow, good luck on your road ahead. Make sure your kids know you love them.

For real? Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m wondering why you think you’ll remain
> anonymous this time after all that detail. Anyhow,
> good luck on your road ahead. Make sure your kids
> know you love them.

Because I prayed to Jo Smith that it would work. lol