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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 02:45PM

I was writing this out when the Williams cartoon thread closed. Remarks about criminal records between Jay, Lot's Wife and others got me to thinking. I think I have something here, and it actually relates to LDS issues. My "essay," as I had it before that thread closed:

I think the matter of criminal histories with pro athletes is common enough, and is caused by a sense of entitlement and privilege. This is not defined by race or gender.

Sports victory is prized in all cultures, and youngsters who show promise are identified at an early age, whether in suburban primary and middle schools, the Soviet block, or runners in Ethiopia and Somalia. (This applies to ballet, too. These youngsters are identified as special, and may be separated into special programs and schools, and learn that they are "special." As their cohorts become smaller and more refined, they are recruited by coaches and pursued by prospective sweethearts. Their sense of elite identity is reinforced and they are often protected from the consequences of misbehavior. When they get to high school, they may be placed in special academic programs, given tutors, and their teachers are told to make sure they pass.

Relevant to this discussion, when they screw up with the law, or a sweetheart, or a motor vehicle (etc.) important people are contacted, and the problem is fixed. Sometimes repeatedly, and they learn (wrongly) that their wrong actions will not have negative consequences. So the likes of OJ get away with abusing women over and over, and this was how he defined his relationships: I get what I want, you better do what I want, cause nothing's happened to me so far, and you know what I mean.

As a cop, I once pulled over a pro athlete, whom I did not identify as such, on operating with an invalid license. Although I had a "right of arrest," I was simply going to tow his car and issue him a court summons, which I regarded as sufficient for the violation. When I called in his name for a check, a sergeant showed up. He had me write a minor ticket on a vehicle malfunction (to justify the stop), let him call a friend to drive the car, and cut him loose. (BTW, he was not a starter.)

This does not define professional athletes, but I think this "syndrome" shows up often enough, so it gets the headlines.

This happens in other milieus, also. Consider the LDS elder, RM, BYU business or law major, sure to make bishop someday, a golden boy in his particular universe. How many times have we had posters bemoan these men who abused or cheated on their wives, exploited their business connections in unethical or criminal ways, violated the WoW, and still maintained their callings and TRs? They learned from an early age that they are "special," and negative consequences that other people suffer do not apply to them.

And don't get me going on political connections!

So the problem is very common to human society. In sports it is more conspicuous. Because they are rich, elite, and very public, we love to read about it and talk about (that was a long thread!), and indulge in schadenfreude.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 02:50PM

Very insightful.

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Posted by: GregS ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 02:56PM

This reminds me of a local sports radio personality who would make his prognostications based on which team had the most misdemeanors and felonies. The team with the most, and most recent, legal woes would be the team he picked to win.

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:01PM

The steroids probably don't help either.

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 03:04PM

She seems to have become more emotional since having her baby, probably her hormones are still all over the place.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 03:21PM

It’s funny I was just thinking about this today, while getting coffee, about how adulation of GAs is really bad for them. You don’t want to be treated as if you can do no wrong because it’s corrosive to the soul. They’d be so much better off if they constantly had people calling them on their shit.

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Posted by: Susan I/S ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 04:29PM

Yes, in LDSInc no one speaks truth to power.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 03:01PM

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, in LDSInc no one speaks truth to power.

Speak no ill of "the Lords annointed"

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 04:32PM

Protection from the consequences of of bad decisions is wrong in childrearing, and adult life as well. Executives are foolish to pack their boards or hire subordinates with people who always agree with them. Now, consider that the CoJCoLdS is as much as business as it is a religion...

I like your thinking, Babylon.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:27PM

I'd like to jump on board, but I think we need some data.

Since the subject is tennis, can anyone cite some statistics to demonstrate that professional tennis players have criminal records more often than the average person?

If not, then I'm still wondering if asserting that athletes have criminal records doesn't tap into some subconscious racism.

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:34PM

I'll see if I can find the actual stats but I know I have read from reliable sources that pro athletes actually have fewer encounters with the law, on average, than the general population. I don't get how any of it is racist unless one automatically associates pro athletes with a particular race (ethnic predominance varies widely by sport) and in turn associates that race with crime.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:42PM

"unless one automatically associates pro athletes with a particular race (ethnic predominance varies widely by sport) and in turn associates that race with crime."

It's the unless. Some people probably do subconsciously equate pro athletes of a particular race with crime.

It would be something along the lines of institutional racism.

This is what I was suggesting Lot's Wife consider regarding her assertion about professional athletes and crime. We all have the potential to exhibit racist, sexist, mysogynistic, etc. attitudes. Even if it's not intentional and we get there unwittingly.

It's usually easier to spot in someone else rather than in ourselves.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:50PM

I would state again that I have seen the data by sport and by position, but not by race. My personal view is that the requirements of the sport and the position drive behavior and that race isn't an important factor.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:54PM

Can you give us a cite some statistics to demonstrate that professional tennis players have criminal records more often than the average person?

I'm not claiming you intentionally or consciously are referencing race. I'm asserting that it is possible that you're unconsciously tapping into that - which some people claim is just as insidious.


edit to include citation from Todd below:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rate-of-domestic-violence-arrests-among-nfl-players/



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2018 06:09PM by jay.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 06:08PM

jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you give us a cite some statistics to
> demonstrate that professional tennis players have
> criminal records more often than the average
> person?

Again, I cannot provide such statistics and I do not think they exist. As I said, I think tennis players probably have less criminal exposure than the average citizen.




> I'm not claiming you intentionally or consciously
> are referencing race. I'm asserting that it is
> possible that your unconsciously tapping into that
> - which some people claim is just as insidious.

I would agree with those who think subconscious bias is as invidious as overt racism. I do not, however, think that was an accurate interpretation of my views. As I said, I have seen analysis by sport and position--not by race.

My point was that in some professional sports, a recklessness that often correlates with poor judgment and criminal trouble is common. Race is irrelevant; tennis is irrelevant.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 06:13PM

Without data to support your assertion, I have to wonder where your claim comes from. Is it an unconscious judgment that relates to race? It seems possible since you have no data to support your claim. You have to ask how you arrived at your conclusion.

The cite Todd provided demonstrates that athletes in one of the most violent sports have lower incidents of arrest.

I think maybe one of the biggest hurdles in racism, sexism, etc. is seeing it in ourselves. As I said, it's easier to see in others. When we can see it in our own judgments, actions and words, then maybe we can work on eradicating it in our own lives.

I know I certainly have to work on all of that in my own thinking, words & actions. Maybe you do too?

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 06:18PM

Maybe not the MOST violent. MMA fighters are rung up on domestic violence at higher rates than average, according to HBO's real sports anyway, can't find anything concrete in regards to their sample size or methodology.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 07:21PM

jay Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Without data to support your assertion, I have to
> wonder where your claim comes from. Is it an
> unconscious judgment that relates to race?

I have explained where the comment came from: an understanding of how certain sports routinely address criminal records for every draft decision. I did not insert race into the question, and the sport associations do not.



> It
> seems possible since you have no data to support
> your claim. You have to ask how you arrived at
> your conclusion.

I have stated the basis (see above) for my claims. I also have access to evidence regarding some sports but chose not to produce it because 1) I was making a joke, 2) the point is based on other information (see above), and 3) neither the joke nor violent sports are relevant to my propositions about Serena.




> The cite Todd provided demonstrates that athletes
> in one of the most violent sports have lower
> incidents of arrest.

Read the rest of the article, particularly the part about domestic violence--I excerpted it in another post in this thread. Then, more generally, correct the existing data for income levels and education and you'll find seriously elevated rates of violent crime in the NFL, the NBA, the NHL, and elsewhere. Few people with base salaries north of $300,000 have serious problems with impulse control and criminal violence.

Note also that you are the person who keeps insisting there is implicit racism in the data and the league practices. You are the outlier here.



> I think maybe one of the biggest hurdles in
> racism, sexism, etc. is seeing it in ourselves.
> As I said, it's easier to see in others. When we
> can see it in our own judgments, actions and
> words, then maybe we can work on eradicating it in
> our own lives.

All true.



> I know I certainly have to work on all of that in
> my own thinking, words & actions. Maybe you do
> too?

I suggest you examine your assumptions about my ethnicity. You don't have a clue who I am.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 02:41AM

Jay,

It's nice that you added the citation to Todd's article. I remain, however, hopeful that you will actually read it. For if you do, you may note that the article says the prevalence of domestic violence arrests for NFL players is "downright extraordinary."

That supports my position, not yours.





----------------------

"But there are 83 domestic violence arrests, making it by far the NFL’s worst category — with a relative arrest rate of 55.4 percent.

Although this is still lower than the national average, it’s extremely high relative to expectations. That 55.4 percent is more than four times worse than the league’s arrest rate for all offenses (13 percent), and domestic violence accounts for 48 percent of arrests for violent crimes among NFL players, compared to our estimated 21 percent nationally.

Moreover, relative to the income level (top 1 percent) and poverty rate (0 percent) of NFL players, the domestic violence arrest rate is downright extraordinary."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2018 02:42AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:47PM

I believe I was the one who brought up criminal behavior.

I did so as a joke. Having said that, I did not mean it as relevant to tennis. I suspect tennis players have fewer than average interactions with the criminal justice system. I believe the same is true of professional athletes in general.

The places where you get unusually violent athletes are the unusually violent ones, a subset of professional sports in general. And there the problems actually line up with the different positions, which makes sense where recklessness is an athletic advantage.

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:51PM

I would agree that anyone making those leaps of logic should be challenged.

As info, regarding a majority black sport.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rate-of-domestic-violence-arrests-among-nfl-players/

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:57PM

Very interesting. I wouldn't have guessed.

That's sort of what I'm referring to with people unconsciously and unintentionally drawing conclusions or making assumptions about athletes and race.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 06:14PM

"But there are 83 domestic violence arrests, making it by far the NFL’s worst category — with a relative arrest rate of 55.4 percent.

Although this is still lower than the national average, it’s extremely high relative to expectations. That 55.4 percent is more than four times worse than the league’s arrest rate for all offenses (13 percent), and domestic violence accounts for 48 percent of arrests for violent crimes among NFL players, compared to our estimated 21 percent nationally.

Moreover, relative to the income level (top 1 percent) and poverty rate (0 percent) of NFL players, the domestic violence arrest rate is downright extraordinary."

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 06:22PM

For the record, I don't think you were or are being racist. I think its tricky to include income level in this one, considering what outliers professional athletes are.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 07:25PM

Yeah, I'm not.

On your other point, professional athletes are privileged. They often come from disadvantaged backgrounds, but they generally go to good colleges and get more education than poor people. Then they get high-paying jobs.

If one wants to evaluate the level of violence in any profession or social group, education and income are important considerations. I would venture (this is a guess) that one of the few places where one would find a greater combination of education, income, and caught or uncaught criminality would be Wall Street.

Or is that statement about Wall Street racist?


;)

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 10:59PM

I think we are venturing into speculation here but speculation can be fun as long as we understand we aren't trying to prove anything. Would be great to run the same numbers on 1st and 2nd generation college graduates. I think its possible you overestimate the impact education has on first generation student athletes. Many of them take easy majors and faculty routinely abet academic fraud on behalf of their athletes. What I would actually pay money to see is a chart comparing wunderlic scores and crime rates. I would be stunned if it didn't show an inverse correlation.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:07AM

"Yeah, I'm not [racist]."

Maybe not. I notice you're completely closed to the idea that you could be propagating racist assumptions, racist thinking, etc.

I have a hard time imagining that I don't exhibit or have racist thoughts & actions, sexist thoughts and actions, etc. I did grow up in this Country and was exposed to the institutional racism, sexism, etc. It would seem strange to me that I would have completely escaped being influenced by that.

I say that though I grew up telling any acquaintances who used racist language that my mom was black - just to see the look on their face - many of my (non-athletic) idols were and are black, my Dad had strong connections to the black community, and my mom never hesitated to speak her mind when she heard someone using racist language.

Yet, I think I'd be naive to believe that my mind is completely free of the influence of my society.

You, on the other hand, seem completely closed to the idea that you also might be an unwitting participant in racist, sexist views. And you may be right. But, if you're not even willing to consider that possibility. If you're not even willing to say "maybe so" - then you can't take the next step of looking at your own words, actions, assumptions & beliefs.

I think we see many people on this board bemoan the fact that their family members are unwilling to even consider they could be wrong. I find it worthwhile to take a hard look at myself even when I'm convinced no fault lies with me. Because often I'm wrong.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:21AM

Or maybe LW has been a target of racism or her spouse or a relative has. There are reasons why a person could definitively state no they are not racist. I get your point but don't think it's useful to belabour it re a specific person.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2018 12:24AM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:40AM

Nightingale, I don't mind.

My family and I have been subjected to prejudice in many situations in many places. I have had it a lot better than many people have, but we are no strangers to various forms of mistreatment.

That does not, however, mean I am free of racist sentiments. Everyone is a product of their family and their culture and their society.

In general, I believe I am quite sensitive to racist, sexist, ethnic, and socioeconomic biases and reasonably good at calling such things out--even when they manifest in me.

And in this case, Jay seems to believe that because he perceives a possible bias, that bias most definitely exists. He is wrong, but you have to admire his tenacity.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 01:03AM

I'm sorry for that happening to you and yours LW. Yeah re Jay's comments. You said what I was struggling to convey. I didn't want to get personal or make assumptions. My sister has mixed kids. I try to be sensitive for them and everybody. Right though. We are products. Sometimes I shock myself with an unwelcome random thought. And wonder where that came from. Forces buffet us of which we may be entirely unaware. As you say, culture etc.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:32AM

Jay, I'm not sure why you are so hung up on this point.

In answer to your question, of course I am a product of my times. Of course I have racist and sexist and other negative impulses. My family comprises multiple races, and we love each other as well as our various friendship networks, but ethnic and cultural minorities are all subject to environmental influences--prejudices--as well. So yes, I have some forms of unfounded prejudice although they evidently are not the ones you assume.

But the issue you and I are discussing is narrower than that. It is my statement that in some sports there are a lot of violent people. I would think that is self-evidently true, since that is what those sports require and offer. But you asserted, and continue to insist, that I was speaking in code and denigrating a particular race.

I have answered that that is not the case. Your imputation of racist sentiments to that statement was a mistake. I am perfectly capable of introspection on this and many related topics--and often engage in such self-evaluation--but in this case my statement was never about race.

I'm sorry if that disappoints you, but that is the way it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2018 12:16PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 05:41PM

wrong place -----



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2018 05:42PM by jay.

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Posted by: nevermojohn ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 11:33PM

I think it is beyond inappropriate to title a thread as being related to Serena Williams and have the thread about criminal behavior of pro athletes. I follow tennis closely enough. I am unaware of anything that Serena has ever done that would rise to the level of criminal.

I think that this thread does a great disservice to perhaps the greatest female tennis player ever who lost her cool during the US Open finals. Nobody got hurt. No crime was committed. She was punished according to the rules.

Are we now trying to lump Serena in a “thug” category?

McEnroe said and did much worse. I personally witnessed some of it. Yet, conversations about him never veered into this territory. Oh yeah, I forgot. He is white and male. That’s why it never happened.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 11:41PM

No one has said anything about Serena Williams being anywhere near a thug or a criminal. The notion that people would make that mistake, in fact, seems highly unlikely to me.

You are right that the title doesn't fit the material; it was just done, presumably, because the topic followed from the Serena thread.

I, for one, believe Serena (and Naomi for that matter) are awesome people and athletes. I think the former overreacted at the tournament but, as I have said several times, I'd bet significant money she was right about sexism and racism in pro tennis.

People may debate that narrower assertion, but I sincerely doubt anyone thinks she is less than a fine person.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2018 11:43PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:13AM

I dig Serena. I've lost my cool many times. I can't imagine having to keep it together all the time under such scrutiny.

I would say if we're going to be stereotype athletes and their criminal records - well, I see professional athletes standing up and speaking out on important issues. I'm glad to see it. And I think they are in a position to make a difference.

So, I'll take this route:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2795262-kyrie-irving-among-athletes-enrolled-in-harvard-business-school-program?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 04:05AM

TBH, "Believe in something, even if it means sacrificing everything" sounds like something a brainwashed Mormon or other cult member might say.

Believe in something? (Even if it's not really true?)

Sacrifice everything? (Even if nothing is really sacrificed? Or even if the sacrifice is made for something that is not true? Kind of like the way that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young....Warren Jeffs "sacrificed everything" for their belief in the sacred principle of polygamy (aka, harem-building)?)

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Posted by: Todd ( )
Date: September 11, 2018 11:43PM

I think she's a cheater and a phony. Look up her history of post facto therapeutic use exemptions or how she evaded drug testing authorities at her home and at the olympics.

She is abusive to people she views beneath her and the deflection to McEnroe is silly. McEnroe's antics didn't go unpunished and I haven't seen anyone here defend McEnroe.

You might have picked the wrong crowd for hagiography.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:22AM

I feel my essay at the top of this thread was for naught. My position is that the culture of sports and elevation* of sports stars creates a "syndrome" of privilege that starts early, even in primary grades. I think this has little to do with race, even less with gender, and varies among the sports. Bad behavior, ranging from the rude, to the narcissist, to the abusive and on to the criminal can be caused by many things.

The problem, or "syndrome" as I like to call it, comes from setting up youngsters as elite who are frequently protected from painful consequences for misbehavior--as long as they're good at their sport. Then we're shocked when they act as though they're immune from the rules and laws that we lower beings must abide by. As I stated in the essay, we see this in the culture of elite LDS males from privileged families and wards.

And other subcultures.

Sorry I reignited the sparks among you fine folks. To steal M.L.King's line, "I don't want to judge a misbehaving athlete by the color of his skin, but by the length of his 'rap sheet.'"

*Yes, "hagiography" is just the word, Todd. Tip of the hat!

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:37AM

It could be from including Serena in the subject line that it's diverging from what you expected. Too though discussions here can be fluid. It's all good. I don't think you wasted your time. I,for one, am interested in these replies.

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:41AM

I had a friend whose son was being scouted by major league baseball in the 7th grade. This was a stable boy with a father who knew the business end of the game. It was interesting to see how special schools (in high-level conferences) were applied to, summer programs, winter baseball in the Caribbean, and the like were carefully researched and exploited to develop his talent.

I've been out of touch for a few years, but I think that is one young fellow who can keep his head in the dizzying world of professional play. Many can't.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 12:42AM

I agree.

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