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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 07:48PM

Evidently worried about the revelations of abuse and coverup that have roiled the church in recent years, Pope Francis has just announced that he intends to convene a meeting of all the church bishops. It appears, however, that he is motivated less by concern about those who have suffered from the church's systemic ills than by a desire to preserve the church's reputation.

Yesterday, for example, he said, “it seems that the Great Accuser [Satan] has been unchained and is attacking bishops. True, we are all sinners, we bishops. [Satan] tries to uncover the sins, so they are visible, in order to scandalize the people." In other words, the problem is not the church's sins but the revelation of those sins and the alienation of "the people."

Frank goes on to suggest that the scandals are the work of a conspiracy among global elites. In his words, "The elites criticize the bishop; while the people have an attitude of love towards the bishop, . . . which confirms the bishop in his vocation.” So there you have it. The scandals are the result of an elite conspiracy to drive a wedge between the bishops and the members, who naturally love their church leaders.

Frank is not a reformer. What worries him is the damage the "elites" are doing to the church, not the damage that the abuse did to the children.



https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/for-pope-francis-the-great-accuser-tries-to-uncover-bishops-sin-to-cause-scandal-98903

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 07:54PM

Why does this remind me so much of the Dallin Oaks quote that it is" wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true?"

The Pope is demonstrating that it's not just the Mormons who value their facade above all else. The children of both churches are expendable. The reputation of the Church trumps their suffering. Old white men must be revered at any cost, dammit!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 08:18PM

Yes, the Pope and the Q15 are bureaucrats who rose through a system rife with abuses and coverups. They cannot implement the toughest reforms because they are committed to the system and personally implicated in at least the coverups.

Give up the untrammeled claims to God's authority? No way.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 09:34PM

I was thinking of Dallin Oaks’s deflection speech about the Mormon Church also being a victim in the Mark Hoffman violence. No, Dallin, the church got caught with its pants down buying forged documents with money from Zion’s Bank orchestrated by Gordon “The Salamander” Hinckley.

Yes Pope Francis, Catholic clergy did the unthinkable to the most vulnerable in their parishes. Bishops were not the victims of such abuse. Individual bishops may have done the right thing, but the seriousness of this repeated abuse has dishonored all in the episcopate.

In the words of an iternate Jewish rabbi, “Better that a millstone be placed around the neck than to offend these little ones.”

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 09:47PM

I like what you did there.

But Brother Fyodor informs us that the church has gone beyond the founder's vision and can now manage things without his guidance, thank you very much.

It's been a pleasure meeting you, Jesus. Now let me show you to the execution chamber.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2018 09:50PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: BYU Boner ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 01:38AM

The Brothers Karamazov! Oh Lottie, how could you!!!

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Posted by: ragnar ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 02:31AM

"Old white men"

Why bring race into this? Is there any evidence that old men of any other color would not do the same?

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 03:21PM

Maybe because they *are* all "old white men?"

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 08:24PM

...we are now starting to see what happens as the extent of the Church's corruption oozes out; that is, they will start turning on each other. And this is just the beginning; the early stages. The Church has had centuries to refine it's corruption, which extends from the top to the bottom, and it's only shocking now because they used to be capable of managing the decadence. But because of the level and extent of the perversion, even the most proven and tested safeguards have broken down. The orchestra is just getting warmed up for the main performance...

"Overture For a Fallen Frank" in F....(diminished).

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 08:59PM

That first paragraph is a jaw dropper.

He didn't own up to the problem. Satan and elites are the bad guys FOR EXPOSING this.


What little respect I could muster for him is gone. Just spine up and own the problem. Your church has a bunch of creep priests and the organization attracts them. Stop with the blame shit.


Satan? Oh good grief. The devil - great accuser is behind this!?


I suspect people are going to let them get away with this. Unbelievable.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 10:25PM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2018 10:33PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: [|] ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 09:08PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45500072

> More than 3,600 children in Germany were assaulted by Roman Catholic priests between 1946 and 2014, a leaked report has revealed.

> According to the report, some 1,670 clergymen in Germany committed some form of sex attack on 3,677 minors, German outlet Spiegel Online reported.

> According to the new study, only 38% of the alleged perpetrators were prosecuted with most facing only minor disciplinary procedures, German media said. About one in six cases involved rape.

> Predatory clerics were often moved to new communities, where no warning was issued about their actions.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 10:59PM

Priests molesting boys has been a cliche for as long as I can remember.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 12:34AM

Apologists would have us believe that the church is not systemically rotten, that Francis may not have known about the widespread abuse, that five years as pope have been an insufficient time in which to address the problems of molestation and coverup.

It is all nonsense. Francis's dilemma arises from the fact that he believes those who comprise the church hierarchy are so important that they deserve protection more than children do.

Shed a tear for the poor, poor bishops.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2018 12:38AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 09:33PM

...the Pope could care less what his parishioners think. Word is that he can get his old job back, just in case he gets sacked.

http://i.imgur.com/T9bpvRE.jpg?1

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Posted by: smirkorama ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 09:52PM

it's a Hell of thing when THE (Roman or MORmON) Church, an institution that is supposed to represent Christ to support the down trodden and helpless has an extensive problem with rampant child sexual abuse....... even as most outlaw biker gangs like the Hell's angels do NOT have the same problem, not even close.

There might be a lesson in that about how unquestioning blind obedience leads to bad outcomes.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 11:04PM

Hiding behind, "we are all sinners" is not going to work in this particular instance.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: September 12, 2018 11:10PM

Thud.

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Posted by: Human ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 11:08AM

Former catholic Jimmy Dore, a comedian, tells Joe Rogan what it was like for him and his friends to be fondled/molested by their parish priest, “happy-hands” Holaghan, as children growing up in Chicago:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XnAN64wyP7Y

Hilarious presentation of what couldn’t be anything other than horrifying, especially since the “adults” in charge of their safety protected the priest precisely *because* he was a priest.

Also, I love the ‘old-school’ mentality most of us grew up with; if the priest “got” you, it was YOUR fault.

(This is only a clip. The entire interview is well worth watching. It’s not only about growing up catholic.)

Human

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 11:38AM

Funny how I once considered this "church" a great whore. It was worse than I thought. Both my beloved prophet and this church were into the same things. Instead of being a whore (which could even be considered respectable in some cultures) the Catholic Church is the great pedophile enabler and Joseph Smith Jr. the great sexual predator.

White is black and hoary old men have license to steal innocence from children to protect their hoary horny hierarchies. Take that Neal Maxwell.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 02:58PM

Power corrupts.
Religious power corrupts absolutely disgustingly.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 03:12PM

It appears, however, that he is motivated less by concern about those who have suffered from the church's systemic ills than by a desire to preserve the church's reputation.

WHAT A SURPRISE!!!!!

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 03:57PM

In a religion where birth control is discouraged every minute another believer is born.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 05:02PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In a religion where birth control is discouraged
> every minute another believer is born.

...and another potential victim.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 07:40PM

I don't think it's even as much as the church's reputation. I think he is trying to preserve the church, period. He sees what is happening in western Europe. The Catholic church is headed to irrelevancy there.

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Posted by: 3X ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 08:26PM

"Frank is not a reformer. What worries him is the damage the "elites" are doing to the church, not the damage that the abuse did to the children."


He does not evince the requisite strength of character; he does not have the in-church power base.

He will not be a reformer.

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Posted by: lisadee ( )
Date: September 13, 2018 10:40PM

The Pope and TSCC musta been Flip Wilson fans back when.


"The devil made me do it."

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 12:39PM

Common sense tells us that any senior Catholic leader knows, by dint of many decades of experience in the Church, that the sexual and physical abuse of children is endemic and that said leader almost certainly participated in covering up such sins. Despite that, some people have asserted that perhaps some of bishops and popes are pristine, having neither known of nor concealed priestly sins.

It's time to put that canard to rest. It turns out that Pope Francis was deeply involved in covering up sexual abuse cases when he was in Argentina. He went out of his way to protect corrupt bishops and other leaders. He defended abusers, spent large sums on their defense, and published reports blaming the victims.

The man is as venal and dishonest as the Church itself. He thinks his bishops are the innocents, the victims, and that those who complain of being abused are the aggressors. There is nothing "holy" in him; he neither wants, nor is capable of, reform.

It takes willful ignorance to defend that man.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/10/pope-francis-sexual-abuse-victims-catholic-church

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/pope-francis-was-often-quiet-on-argentine-sex-abuse-cases-as-archbishop/2013/03/18/26e7eca4-8ff6-11e2-9cfd-36d6c9b5d7ad_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.8e00685e6e86

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/cdl.-bergoglio-protected-convicted-pedophile-in-argentina

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 12:52PM

In light of this...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/apr/01/catholic-priests-abuse-warning


...the "progressive pope" seems like a scam.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 01:10PM

EB,

I don't think any senior Catholic can be a sincere progressive. It's unrealistic to expect him to given that there's no way he could remain untainted by the time he received his bishopric. It is a thoroughly corrupt system, and eventually every leader is compromised.

I have to think the same thing is true of the LDS church. I (perhaps naively) think that there could be a number of 70s, perhaps even a few apostles, who have never had to defend child molesters. But that may be wishful thinking; perhaps all of them have had to sign off on coverups at various times.

The root of the evil is the structure of these organizations: leaders with absolute power, surrender of the individual's conscience and moral judgment to those leaders, ritualized confession of sexual sins, the sexualization of little children, one-on-one personal contact, parental complicity, the inability to get a public hearing, the church's desire to avoid all public responsibility. When those things are in place, the upshot is sexual abuse and coverup.

Sadly, most human moral behavior is the product of individual and institutional incentives. It is very rare that someone violates those imperatives, particularly if that person is a bureaucrat who rose to the top through obedience and biddability.

The challenges that confront, and may well destroy, the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church are similar in that regard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2018 01:21PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 01:25PM

Sad but true.

Mormonism hasn't had the PR need for some "progressive" leader like the Catholics have. But like Dallin Oaks stating categorically that LDS Corp will never apologize - cover ups are their natural defense.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 01:29PM

Herewith news that yet another Catholic bishop, this one also on the East Coast of the United States, has resigned under scrutiny.

This scandal is not just about coverups, however; it is another case of a bishop who himself has a long history of sexual abuse.

I frankly (intentional pun) don't think having abused children bars any priest's progress up the Catholic ladder. It almost seems as if the church views these sins as inevitable, and hence forgivable, among the clergy.

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 06:17PM

"I frankly (intentional pun) don't think having abused children bars any priest's progress up the Catholic ladder. It almost seems as if the church views these sins as inevitable, and hence forgivable, among the clergy."

...in the eyes of the Vatican hierarchy, it is THE prerequisite for advancement.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 06:26PM

I wouldn't agree with your last statement. Seems they advance despite not because.

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 06:59PM

...I know it seems extreme, but we have to view the totality of the abuse scandals; in the total world view, past and present. The Church Seminaries have been rife with abuse and corruption for decades. Most of the young men admitted to Seminaries world-wide,(in order to succeed) have had to either accept, ignore, or worse, participate in the scandalous behavior occurring in their midst. Thus, a culture of perversion and sexual decadence has been allowed to flourish and thrive within the Church structure itself. At this point, accusations and denials are being thrown about; mostly as a diversion/denial strategy. But, if you do an unbiased investigation into the Priests, Arch Bishops and Cardinals overseeing these "Institutions of Godly learning", unfortunately, you will find that almost without exception, men advanced to higher positions within the Church hierarchy, have been groomed by the higher-up predator Priests. Sounds horrible, which it is...wish it wasn't true.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 07:07PM

I'm not willing to go that far.

I suspect, with some confidence, that everyone in the upper reaches of the hierarchy knows abuse is rampant and has participated in multiple coverups.

I am not, however, confident that the senior people are all sexual predators. It seems clear that some of the bishops are, or have been, but I can't see how a history of abuse would be a career "plus."

But they must have their equivalent of a second anointing, meaning that people can lie and conceal in the interests of the church without worrying about any condemnation or damnation. My guess is that it works like Dostoevsky said, with the people at the top thinking they are so important that nothing--including right and wrong, including Jesus--can be allowed to get in the way.

That is where the conspiracy seems clearly established.

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 07:24PM

...well, first, "It's a club, and we ain't in it!"...second, pedophilia and child abuse is not limited to the Catholic Church...British Royalty comes to mind. What I'm inferring is that in order to reach the elite, higher levels of Vatican importance, there is a "token". Which in reality is the mechanism of blackmail. As in political intrigues, sexual improprieties are one major component of any compliance or "loyalty test" to the firm. No differences between political or religious organizations that I can tell. Remember Hugh Hefner who hosted many US politicians and celebrities during his glory years? Some of the "improprieties" were captured on film within the Estate's viewing rooms. Politicians were duped. That was then. What about now?

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 07:41PM

"I'm not willing to go that far.

I suspect, with some confidence, that everyone in the upper reaches of the hierarchy knows abuse is rampant and has participated in multiple coverups."

OK...."the hierarchy knows abuse is rampant and has participated in multiple coverups?"

Why?...What is to be gained/protected/concealed by Vatican officials? Systematic child abuse?...pedophilia?...trafficking?...what?

The question is raised. The answers will be hard to accept.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 08:04PM

When you cover up child abuse, suppress or destroy (Germany) documents so police can't see them, and perjure yourself in interviews with police and court officials, you are guilty in law in many countries and of gross malfeasance publicly. When bishops' complicity is revealed, they lose their reputations, their influence, and often their jobs. That is more than enough komprimat to ensure that the senior leaders will stay silent.

What is to be concealed? Why child abuse, of course. Sexual abuse of children and vulnerable adults, children being passed around from priest to priest, priests being passed around from diocese to diocese, children tortured and occasionally killed in orphanages. That is what the Vatican and the bishops are concealing.

This is an easy story to understand.

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Posted by: badam2 ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 07:03PM

I've used the "Satan made me do it" card when I was a kid haha now the bishops are. It didn't even work for me back then.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 07:08PM

To be clear, Pope Francis is not saying "Satan made me do it" or not even "Satan made the priests and bishops do it."

He's saying, "Satan made the victims come forward and embarrass me."

That's even worse. It implicitly denies that Francis and the bishops and cardinals did anything wrong.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2018 07:09PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: badam2 ( )
Date: September 15, 2018 01:54PM

Oh I read it wrong. But still it's the blaming Satan card in a way.

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Posted by: Concerned Citizen 2.0 ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 08:19PM

..."This is an easy story to understand."

No, not so much. Might be easy for folks like us in the know, but for devoted Catholic members, they are in crisis mode right now. Their world is falling apart, and how do we help them?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 14, 2018 08:43PM

I agree with you. The politics are easy to understand to us but not to devout Catholics.

I don't know what "we" can do to help them. I am tempted to say that the destruction of the Catholic Church, or its reformation into a more modest and less authoritative entity in which child molesters are not protected, would represent progress for the believers.

But obviously that is my opinion and not theirs. The revelations must inevitably be traumatic to tens of millions of people.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 15, 2018 05:12AM

The American Conference of Catholic Bishops just flew to Europe to talk with Pope Francis about the sexual abuse scandals that are tearing apart the church in the United States. After the meetings, Daniel DiNardo, the president of that group, told reporters that the Pope had listened sincerely.

Yup. That's all they got.

Meanwhile, back in the States, Bishop DiNardo himself has now been accused of covering up a pedophile priest.

Yup.



https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/pope-francis-orders-investigation-of-wva-bishop-on-sexual-harassment-charges/2018/09/13/b0ebdd34-b741-11e8-94eb-3bd52dfe917b_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.2ca15775a001



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2018 05:12AM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: September 15, 2018 09:39AM

And the thing is, the solution would not be that difficult. Public schools figured it out a long time ago.

Train all church clergy, religious, and officials that abuse of children, minors, and vulnerable adults will not be tolerated.

Train them that all reports of abuse that are brought to them MUST be reported to the relevant government officials (police, CPS, etc.) under threat of losing their positions within the church.

Train the church membership that they, too, should report suspicions of child abuse to the relevant government authorities.

It's really not that difficult. Come up with policy, train on that policy, execute the policy. This is bread-and-butter to any administrator.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: September 15, 2018 01:12PM

Exactly. Make the policy public and strongly enforce it openly and publicly. There can't be transfers for the "repenting sinner" (eye roll) to be given a second chance.


Can you imagine if a public school "transferred" a child molester to another school decided to just keep quiet? Every administrator would be GONE.


Can you imagine if a public school blamed it on an invisible boogeyman (Satan) trying to ruin their reputation? That administrator would be gone.


A "confession" should be given to law enforcement and the victims, not secretly to some clown in a confessional booth. I don't know why so many people are OK with this as a method to resolve guilt and feel a Sky Daddy forgave them. Obviously the priests wink and nod knowing full well the benefit of this system is not really having to act on anything.

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