...judge for yourself, I will not comment nor editorialize. I must have used an improper word earlier.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/vatican-rocked-by-leak-of-300-page-dossier

If it's homosexual activity between consenting adults, it may be of concern to church higher-ups, but it's nothing I need to be worried about.

If it's sexual situations involving seminarians (generally adults training to be priests,) then the moral situation is more that of a professor/student relationship and should be dealt with in a similar way to how universities handle such a situation.

Their is an article on the site called, "Atlanta Archbishop Wilton Gregory Invites Homosexualist Fr. James Martin to Speak" --
Using the word "homosexualist" and all its connotation, doesn't really bode well for reliability of the site.

..."it's nothing I need to be worried about."

Yes, no worry on your part. But what you are watching is the slow, agonizing demise of the Vatican's established Earthly institution. One which has shaped and manipulated huge segments of the world's population for centuries.

We are so sure and confidant that our LDS corruption and falsities merit the highest condemnations from every quarter.

Joseph Smith: adulterer
Brigham Young: adulterer
...yada, yada

Catholicism takes every known LDS perversion and falsehood to the nest level. I am just trying to put things in proper perspective.

...it is interesting, if nothing else.

Do you ever post on anything but the abuse scandal in the Catholic church? I guess it has its place, but this is an ex Mormon board. Maybe you should remember that. FWIW, I agree with Summer. Abusing a child is a crime. Two priests or seminarians having consensual sex is not. It is an internal Catholic problem and I dont really care that much either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2018 07:28PM by bona dea.

bona dea Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Do you ever post on anything but the abuse scandal
> in the Catholic church? I guess it has its place,
> but this is an ex Mormon board. Maybe you should
> remember that. FWIW, I agree with Summer. Abusing
> a child is a crime. Two priests or seminarians
> haveing consensual sex is not. It is an internal
> Catholic problem and I dont really care that much
> either.


THANK YOU!
Getting really tired of non-Mormon threads. Im here because I am a former Mormon. Not because I am a former Catholic, or Orthodox, or this or that, or whatever

A: Yes, I post other things.

B: What is happening within the Catholic Church is an indicator of just how much religious abuse society will allow to occur before society decides to engage.

C. There's no sense in trying to deflect, protect, or divert the reality of what's happening...I have seen your other posts. Do you offer any other explanation for what is happening within the Catholic Church, except that it is a corrupt and decadent institution? I would be glad to hear it if you can posit some other rational reasoning......

There are corrupt people in the Catholic church, but that doesnt mean everyone in corrupt or that there are not good things in the church too.I do not support the abuse. How about discussing the abuse in the Mormon church. It is there and probably as bad as in the Catholic church and that would be on topic. You seem obsessed by this subject to the exclusion of on topic stuff. You know, Mormon stuff. As I said, this subject shouldnt be forbidden, but then, this is an ex Mo board, not an ex Catholic board.

...please do your due diligence.

Fine....You are an ex-Mormon. 5 bonus Temple points. Welcome to the Club! The relevance of these posts is that what you are seeing in real-time, is an institutional fail. One that has been in the works for many years now. And as much as you are LDS and connected to the LDS network, and the possibility that similar corruption could be exposed within the LDS Church, this Catholic case study is invaluable to people who have investigative talent. If you don't get that, well, then, we can't help you.

I don't feel that two consenting adults having sex constitutes "corruption" or "religious abuse." What it does mean is that two professed religious are breaking their church's rules and laws regarding chastity -- which has probably been going on forever.

I've long suspected that a celibate (or "celibate") clergy has been how the Catholic church has dealt with the gay "problem" over the centuries. I'm not saying that all or even most Catholic professed religious are gay. Just that there has been a place for them in religious life if traditional heterosexual marriage does not suit for whatever reason. And what goes on behind closed doors? -- most people don't want to look too closely at that.

In some ways the Mormon church has gone the same route. If gays are celibate, the church pretends to be content with them. Unfortunately there is even less of a place for gays within Mormonism than there is in Catholicism.

The Church can do anything it wants, and people won't care. It's absolutely unbelievable.


Check out the comment below the article:

"Why am I Catholic?
Not because of the pope.
Not because of the cardinals.
Not because of the bishops.
Not because of the priests.
But because of the REAL LIVING PRESENCE OF JESUS CHRIST in the EUCHARIST !"


Wow. Who cares about how corrupt the Church is. We eat real Jesus in the crackers! Screw the kids. I get to feel magic invisible Jesus!

I don't think anyone can fix that level of brainwashing and cultural attachment.

There is NOTHING the Mormons could come up with that the older religions have not done in spades. Mormons are amateurs.

Humans are so disappointing. I'm embarrassed to be one.

I am embarrassed to be a human at times too, but because of bigotry and lack of understanding of other people and their beliefs. As said before, the pope is not the church and all priests are not corrupt. In fact, most are good people.I condemn those who are, but not the rwst. The pope has called a conference to deal with abuse. Before we crucify him, let's see what they do.What a concept.

Perhaps it has to do with the ingrained black and white thinking of having been LDS that even some former Mormons look at things with black and white thinking.

I'm just know I am getting tired of non-Mormon topics that seem to be increasing. I get it, every now and then, but, geezzzz...

It's happened before I know. And Admin did a crack down. Hope they consider trying to bring more of the topics back to Mormonism

I agree. I think that some posts about Catholicism are at least tangentially topical or interesting, but it's been excessive lately.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ,
> but it's been excessive lately.


Yes, it has.

Exactly. Personally, I am getting a little sick of both the abuse scandal, which is abhorrant, and the obsession a few posters seem too have with it.There seems to be a real anti Catholic and anti Muslim bias here that goes way beyong this current scandal.

The great thing about thread titles is they let you know what you will find in the thread.

You have promised several times you were going to disengage from the discussions of Catholic abuse. And yet you keep coming back.

You don't have to read these.

I said I was through discussing it with you, not that I would never post on the subject again. See the difference? More proof of you assuming you know my mind better than I do.

And yet here you are, in the Catholic threads, referring passive-aggressively to unnamed contributors and asking that they stop posting things critical of your favorite church.

No, Bona Dea, the Mormon Church is not as abusive as the Catholic Church. Catholicism has for centuries had a celibate, permanent clergy that has been systemically protected. It has dominated educational institutions, hospitals, orphanages, and homes for unwed mothers in many countries; it has developed enduring and intimate relationships with political parties and governments. It has used those advantages to conceal its own atrocities. And, as demonstrated by CC2's link, it still does not understand that the atrocities are child abuse and not adult homosexuality.

The Mormon Church--watch carefully: this is where the relevance arises--may be introspective and chauvinistic, but it is nowhere near as powerful as the RCC. And there is turnover in its clergy, which ensures that new people see the old crimes and sometimes do something about it. There is no way the LDS Church can tolerate and conceal as evil as the RCC does.

The Catholic Church is what the abusive and destructive Mormon Church could, worst-case scenario, become. Defend what you want, but don't turn around and attempt to silence those who understand the political dynamics better than you.

Lot's Wife, I take many of your points, but I'm just saying that the *number* of threads regarding Catholicism has been a bit much lately. And this is coming from an ex-Catholic who is generally willing to discuss the church's shortcomings.

One problem that the Mormon church has that is distinct from Catholicism is how Mormon bishops, SPs and MPs discuss intimate sexual matters with church youth behind closed doors. Say what you will about the Catholic church, but Catholic confessions are officially anonymous and topics are initiated only by the person confessing. My sexual innocence was never once compromised in the confessional, and my family would have been justifiably outraged had that occurred.

Of course the Mormon Church has less abuse because it is much, much smaller and 1800 years younger,but percentage wise, I suspect it is right up there,esp if you figure in polygamy.
As far as whether this is relevant enough to justify thread after thread is up to the mods but those of us who are tired of it have a right to express ourselves too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2018 06:48PM by bona dea.

The only reasonable comparison, obviously, is proportionality. And no, the mainstream LDS Church is not likely to have the same degree of child sexual abuse as the RCC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2018 06:32PM by Lot's Wife.

That's useful to know.

I believe the authority relationship is the main problem--the notion that one person is God's representative and should be trusted implicitly by the other, that the individual should at the church's behest override her own conscience--but at least there is a boundary when it comes to children's sexuality. That is considerably more respect for the individual than Mormonism offers.

More broadly, I do not believe all Catholics, or all Catholic clergy are bad. The latter are presumably as good as believers of other religions. I suspect the institutional structure of the RCC predisposes it to produce, or harbor, more abusers than the more horizontally organized protestant faiths and even than Mormonism; and I think the senior clergy have almost inevitably been involved in coverups and hence are corrupt.

The key, I believe, is recognizing that structures determine incentives and incentives determine behavior. The stronger and more entrenched the system, the more powerful the coercive effect.

Yes, I believe that the structure of the Catholic church has served to harbor child molesters. There will (unfortunately) always be child molesters, but if they know that they will be reported to the police or CPS, it serves to keep their numbers in check.

I've heard that 6% of Catholic priests were involved in the scandal in the U.S. IDK how accurate that number is, but that's what I've heard -- which means the majority of priests have not been involved. It's still a ridiculously high number, though.

Most priests that I've met have been great. Many are "salt of the Earth" guys. I hate that the good ones (and there are many) have been tainted by this scandal. But the Pope MUST address this situation, and address it forcefully. As I said elsewhere, the public schools managed to figure out how to deal with child abusers. It's more than time for the Catholic church to get it right.

Not always. I read accounts of teachers abusing kids locally all the time.

...what? That's an admission that the higher-ups protect and advance pedos or pervs..............WTH?



"Yes, I believe that the structure of the Catholic church has served to harbor child molesters. There will (unfortunately) always be child molesters, but if they know that they will be reported to the police or CPS, it serves to keep their numbers in check."

They are usually fired if found out and prosecuted if the kid is under the age of consent, but unless someone speaks up, the. higher ups dont know. The molester isnt likely to advertise . Neither is a kid who thinks he/she is in love.

You are reading accounts of it due to teachers getting caught and reported to authorities.

I've worked in two different school districts, eight different schools and have a wide network of fellow teachers. IMO it is extremely rare for a teacher to molest a child.

I have worked as a teacher for 40 years and personally know two. There are also cases on the news fairly regularly. It is usually a teen ager and not a small child though. In one of the cases I knew,the girl was over 16 so it was legal although very unprofessional and creepy. He was her teacher and was married. After graduation, he divorced his wife and married her. The school did nothing. The other case involved the.husband of my childhood next door neighbor. He was a teacher, coach, a mayor and bishop. He is currently in jail.It happens fairly frequently here. Either you are.lucky or your district or the molesters are better at hiding it. I am not doubting what you say, but am reporting what I have read in the papers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2018 03:03PM by bona dea.

What I find fascinating about this article, and the scandal, is that the Catholic leaders are evidently more concerned about the homosexuality--between consenting adults--than they are about the child abuse.

Again--and this is the point of these discussions of the Catholic abuse--the institution is so insulated, so introspective, that its concerns don't even align with those of society abroad. What the reformers want to fix, as shown by Frank's statements and the debate encapsulated in this particular article, isn't even the real problem. The church's failure to understand the rest of the world is the primary problem, the obstacle to reform, and the reason the Church is in serious decline.

THAT is why it is relevant to Mormonism. The same internal dynamics prevent the Q15 from appreciating the problems normal Mormons and non-Mormons confront; those dynamics render "reform" impossible and indicate a high risk that the institution will go into serious decline.

Another issue that strikes me is that the Catholic Church (and other religions) has made gays social outcasts in society and has done everything it can to prevent equal rights for gays.

Then, the Church sets up a "celibate" male group that provides a harbored role for them in the very church that discriminates against them. THEN, the gays within seem fine with their secret lives and persecution of the gay lifestyle.


We've all seen some Christian gays who are filled with self loathing, speaking out against their own gay rights. These religions have damaged a lot of gay people. It's such a weird dynamic.


And that's in addition to attracting pervs who can fit into the dynamic with protection.

I think that is right.

The gay clergy either deal with endless guilt or they harden themselves and learn not to worry about the rules. Neither is healthy.

Then the reformers come along, and the debate between progressives and conservatives becomes one over homosexuality. That prism affects everything, so when these child molestation scandals arise they are perceived as problems of homosexuality within the clergy rather than as abuses of innocent kids. That is what the article above reflects.

The basic problem is readily understood. Catholic priests and monasteries and nunneries were at times in history the sole bastions of learning and traditional religion. At such times the Vatican perceived them as God's warriors and thought it needed to protect them at all costs. That mentality grew entrenched and continues to affect personnel decisions: it inclines the church to protect wayward clergy at the expense of children and innocent outsiders who, no matter how important they are in the eyes of God, are not the church's standard bearers.

Again, some of this exists in the LDS church. Joseph Bishop is from an insider family, and insiders are viewed as the ones God selected 200 years ago. They must be protected. That, and the same concern about reputation and publicity that animates the Catholic Church, means that mere members are sometimes considered expendable.

What differentiates the Mormon hierarchy from the Catholic one are largely time and political power. If given Catholic history, the LDS Church would probably have ended up in roughly the same corrupt place.

Reading the Wiki page on this Michael Voris (the owner behind the Churchmilitant website) made me laugh. He has a problem with homosexuality because apparently he is bi-sexual

"Voris, who has never been married, is celibate,[55] and has been called by independent Catholic news site Crux "one of the Catholic Church's most vocal opponents of LGBT causes."[56]

On April 21, 2016, in an episode of The Vortex, Voris revealed that prior to his return to the Faith he engaged in multiple sexual relationships viewed as gravely sinful by the Catholic Church. During his twenties he was "confused about [his] own sexuality" resulting in "frequent sexual liaisons with both adult men and adult women."[57]

He added that these were all "past sins" which had now been publicly admitted, and that since his reversion, "I abhor all these sins."[57] Voris explained that when he was in Fatima five years before, he had "consecrated specifically my chastity to Our Blessed Mother" and had remained a celibate.[57] "That virtue which I had desecrated, I now asked to be consecrated, protected by her," he said.[57]

He further claimed that the Catholic Archdiocese of New York was collecting and preparing to publish details of his former life in order to discredit him and his work with Church Militant.[57] The New York Archdiocese denied these claims, calling them "100 percent untrue."[58]

..OK, let's focus here. Whether or not this thread is offensive, or is out of place, or is not relevant to Mormonism, is a not the main issue here. What IS important is that this Vatican scandal issue and it's subsequent fallout, is an indicator: that is, that institutions, once held in the highest esteem, are now exposed to the world; levels of corruption, malfeasance, and collusion at levels unknown from earlier times.

We are all sorry that this has come to that. But to hide your head in the sand over this will only make you a more bitter and hateful person. Accept reality, and move forward. All is not what it seems. Unfortunately, more information will be brought forward in the coming months which will truly shock people. Please be prepared, and don't give up hope for humanity.

Some have accused me of selective Catholic criticism; no. I was there when the Glen Pace report was released accusing the LDS Church of Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA). I was just as accusatory then, so don't say I don't know.....I do.

Concerned Citizen 2.0 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
: that is, that institutions, once held
> in the highest esteem, are now exposed to the
> world; levels of corruption, malfeasance, and
> collusion at levels unknown from earlier times.
>

Considering the history of the CC, I find this above statement naive.

"Hah!!...you go girl! Let's flesh that out.....if you can."

The latest news appears to show that in the Netherlands, half of all senior clergy over the last 65 years have either been child abusers or directly involved in coverups. As should be expected given the pattern in other countries, these bishops and cardinals simply moved some of the perpetrators from one area to another.

Would it be unreasonable to extend that 50% proportion to other parts of the world, in particular the developing world where anti-molestation laws are either nonexistent or largely unenforced?

This stuff is not isolated incidents; it is pervasive in a church that views its clergy as more important than its lowly adherents. That ubiquity, in turn, explains why--notwithstanding Frank's decision to hold a (sort of) urgent conference on child abuse next year--reform is so difficult. The complicit parts of the hierarchy are too powerful to agree that everyone's secrets should be revealed.

Everyone's hands, in other words, are red with Caesar's blood.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/16/dutch-catholic-church-accused-of-widespread-cover--up



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2018 03:05PM by Lot's Wife.