Today I feel as if the "one true church" just made a pronouncement that I am just a number in a book.

I'm shedding massive tears because I KNOW the church leaders KNOW about abuse and continue to allow it to happen. I didn't spend 8 hours of emotional turmoil detailing #646 just to have them say … "F OFF". It does feel like a big finger was pointed my direction.

I am glad to see some people awakened and turned in their papers in support of protecting children. However, I'm sick to my stomach that so many TBM's think it's apostacy to speak up about abuse when the church refuses to do anything to stop it.
Plus I am shocked how many know and are OK with the gay policy, JS's teen polygamy practice, rocks in the hat, evolving first story, etc.

My TBM sister summed up what seems prolific to many mormons when she said...."that's not MY church", as if because she believes it to be something else in her heart, all evidence to the contrary should be dismissed.

No, I didn't expect a different outcome for Sam, I just expected more human instincts out of more TBM's.

It's to protect kids.


Jesus said it best.


Didn't they just reinforce their name has Jesus in it? For Christ's sake, just be it Mormons.

I have been out of the Mormon church for over 30 years. I Felt so over this all for so many years, but old wounds are popping up again. I felt the need to do "something". I feel wounded again.

I relate to your pain in the "gay policy". A very close family member is gay as well and I love him no different since his coming out. However, his mother gave him a letter that absolutely crushed him. She kept calling him a "homo" in this revolting letter.

This wonderful, loving man got married recently and his Mormon mom said she was attending then cancelled at the last moment and said her husband was sick and she couldn't leave him. It was later discovered she was traveling to see her sister and when she was confronted she lied again. OH...what values to lie for the Lord.

To the leaders, there is no WORTH OF A SOUL, except their's. That is what I found out when I was dealing with the leaders and got a horrible letter from Packer about gays. He let me know in no uncertain terms that I was NOTHING to him.

I'm sorry this hurts you, but it is the truth. Better to know the truth than live with their lies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2018 06:52PM by cl2.

cl2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the leaders, there is no WORTH OF A SOUL,
> except their's.

Except for what can be taken/stolen from any given soul
in the name of Jesus for LD$ inc

ummmmmmmmm Joseph Smiths MORmON scam was basically founded on ABUSE ===

I hope you realize that had the church leaders only mildly punished Sam with disfellowshipment that it would have ramifications that the top are not really leading the "true church ". Unfortunately, you can not expect integrity from an organization that doesn't respect its members.

From an exmormon perspective, Sam is 100% correct in his quest to protect children. From a member's perspective, Sam was right about bringing up the issue, but think that he should have backed off when the church made a partial accommodation of allowing a parent to sit in. Some never-mos while disgusted by the church's morality questions believe that parents should step up and leave to protect their children.

The partial accommodation you suggest is a course of action to protect the church, IMHO. Their is no actual requirement for a parent to be present, only a possibility that the bishop MAY allow a parent in after a child requests it.

If a parent requests they be present, no authority in the church has the right to state they can not be present, as they are the legal authority of the child. It is their duty to protect their children.

Let's leave the sexual discussions to the experts and the parents.


I liked the suggestion following sam's announcement today that we ask the parents if they have talked to their children about chastity, rather than allow the Bishops free-reign. (the parents are asked about it as part of their worthiness interviews.) anyone have thoughts on this?

I liked his suggestion about putting some pressure on Mitt and every mormon politician.

agreed. that was hilarious. Sam running for office so he could ask Mitt about the masturbation question.

now that I am thinking more on the ramifications of parents being asked about their kids little factories I'm thinking I was way off base on that. Not sure I am in my right mind to be on here today ;)

I misread messygoop prior message....sorry messygoop, the tears are still getting in my eyes. I am angry, then sad, then emotional. And then it starts again. I apologize if I unloaded on you messygoop. I get now what you were trying to say.

Not offended at all.

I was a victim of being asked about touching myself as a Blazer.

I would like for the church to follow Sam's idea and end the questioning altogether.

The correct answer is to lie unless you want to make a public scene to change the LDS Church. Masturbation and premarital sex is not in the Ten Commandments, and the LDS authorities have no right to ask those questions. Tell them what they want to hear. We need to be as wise as snakes, so to speak.

Now if the person is gay and someone else tattled to the Bishop, then the person lies. It is told there must be a misunderstood joke that you told. It is just untrue gossip going around. They are not lying, but they misread the joke. The jokes on me. bla bla bla I'm not gay.

That should end the problem.

If the gay persons want to come out and say the truth, and fight the LDS Church, and the Church wants to excommunicate or disfellowship them personally, then they fight fire with fire. They know the Church is false, but they want to stay in the Church for social reasons. Then they can be discrete in their practice of it and lie. Or they defend themselves if they want to make a public stink about it.

The Sodom and Gomorrah story is misread. and the gays were not destroyed for being gay, but they were destroy for pushing the practice on children and adults against their mind and will. God is about freedom, and that is reasoning used to the authorities. Simpl tweak the interpretation with rational thought, and no more fighting over the issue of gender that the Bible doesn't say anything about. Gay behavior is a sin is an assumption everyone makes based on tradition. It is not in the Ten Commandments or golden rule.

If they bring out Paul's first chapter in Romans, then the rational argument is he was confronting the people in secret societies in his days that do all the things he writes because they do it to flip off Yahweh to prove he is a lying criminal. Paul is not talking to the gays at the bottom of the pyramid structure that are outsiders. They don't have the same intention of the gays at the bottom on as outsiders, so the gays can use this reasoning to confront the Bishops or Stake Presidents and leave them speechless.

Warn them these ideas will go public, and you promise to keep the practice discrete and not promote it in the church, they will back down and keep it quiet, and you will not be excommunicated. They would not want a public fight against reasonable ideas.

But the gays can have a heyday with these ideas and force the LDS Church to change like they did with blacks and the priesthood. It may take five or ten years for the Church to accept the practice secretly, if the practice is made discrete in Church for the sake of the children. Eventually, the FAKE prophet and apostles will make a policy change under political pressure, but eventually, the gays will not be excommunicated based on the Bible they supposedly follow, but don't.

If the Church keeps pushing excommunication, the gays can stand up publicly that the Mormon Church is going to excommunicate them supposedly based on the Bible, which is an irrational interpretation, because they won't stone them to death anymore, which is Biblical hypocrisy.

These kinds of ideas, by stepping out of the paradigm boxes, will give the winning hand to the gays who are not gay like some we know in the news today who are also child molesters to flip the finger at the God of Moses. Whether the ideas are true or not, it doesn't matter; the reasoning is solid. Finally, use the Book of Mormon against them. The Bible doesn't say it, but Book of Mormon says the Law of Moses was done away with Christ;and therefore, so went away the Levitical law of punishing gays. Point to the Book of Mormon and say, "Look! It says not to punish the gays anymore. This something the LDS Church needs to change like blacks and priesthood!" Now that's a whole different discussion, and I won't bore anyone.

To summarize, the first strategy is to lie because you are lying about yourself and not bearing false witness against your neighbor. If they find out the truth from an informant, say it must be a misunderstanding. Don't lie about your neighbor. The next level is if you want to make a public stink about it. These are mortal principles of power we need to reasonably work out in our own minds.

Someone in history must have understood mortal and moral appear to come from same root ideas. It would be a project worth investigating the theory, but I just thought about it, without doing the research. Next I will do the research to prove the theory true or false if possible. I don't know the facts.

Hmm.
Personally, I don't think it's a very good strategy to battle something immoral with your own immorality. "Sinking to their level" comes to mind.

I suppose if the goal is "stay in a cult under false pretenses," sure. But if the goal is "live an honest, healthy, dignified life..." Not a great idea to lie your way around it.

If inappropriate questions are being asked and a truthful answer gets a child beaten or assaulted, I pick the lie until I am 18 and can leave, which is what I did.

As an adult, I abhor lying. Can't tolerate it from anyone, but I did it as a child in these interviews at the advice of my older sister to prevent the shame in the worthiness interview, and emotional and sexual abuse of my mother. (I reacted strongly when I saw Mommy dearest because I recognized my mother in the character.)

I do admit that once kids have to lie to support their own well being, making the choice to be honest 100% and changing responses to be honest is a difficult thing to do. My suggestion is stop asking the questions that should not matter, and the lies will likely stop. There are reasons why people are not being honest in their interviews with the bishop.

My experiences were that girls are told it is their fault boys can't control their little factories, and boys are told they can't masterbate.

If all the mormon boys were actually to STOP masterbating mormons would have one hell of an icky sticky chuch building. Boys would be popping off all over the place once those hormones kick into high gear. sorry if that offends...just trying to keep it real.

I would be surprised if even 50% of the respondents to the chastity questions have been 100% truthful anyway.

Of all the young girls I knew when I was young (and we talked secretly after the questions) very few were honest. Judging by that I would guess that would mean a lot of boys were also not 100% honest. (This was back before porn was readily available. My brothers kept the Sears catalogue lingerie section in their dressers)

What is the sense of asking the question, only to be lied to.....OH WAIT A MINUTE<<<<HOLD THE PHONE>>>>they want us to be like them.....they think we should just lie about that.
Got it now. ;) My sick humor that is very dry, of course.

They lie because it is the right thing to do. It is not the Bishop's dame business. See my other post.

Pyramid structure of power vs circle of unity creates a natural conflict in everyone. Unless you are at the top of the pyramid structure to lie to everyone beneath you to keep your power.

Even though I was a victim I don't want to be known as a victim or a number anymore. I am a human being with unique attributes. If I can overcome the entire cult in my mind then I will have won I think.

As a 30 y/o woman, I was asked if I have anal or oral sex w/my husband.

I’ve never told anyone this until now.

I had no idea about this practice was going on with children. My kids were too embarrassed to tell me what the bishop had asked them, so I never knew. I imagine there are a lot of other parents who have no idea.

My ex was fondled in the temple. No wonder he never went back. When I asked him if that had happened, he turned around and shuffled papers on his desk.

He was ashamed!

MORMONS——latter-day SHAME!

I went through hell beforehand because, as everyone should know, my ex is gay and I knew before I married him. I learned more about sex from the bishop than I'd ever known and I was VERY, VERY naive.

I had to go to my cousin for my TR as I had moved home and my cousin didn't know what was going on and I was told not to tell anyone. My cousin could tell there was something wrong and he made me feel like a piece of shit because I wouldn't "fess up" to my fiance being gay. I had done nothing that needed confessing for. I even refused to go to tithing settlement. I couldn't bring myself to be under the control of a bishop in a room by myself as an adult.

This is so sick in every way. I wouldn't want a parent with me either. My parents obviously didn't know as I asked my mother. She couldn't even speak. My mother was very shy so this was something we didn't talk about.

Teach the kids sexual education by parents or in schools, but for hell sakes, NO ADULTS asking these questions including parents. (P.S. I got called out in my R.S. lesson for saying that maybe we should teach sex education in school as parents didn't seem to be doing it.) So then we send our kids into these interviews with no sexual education at all. I hadn't a clue what masturbation was at the ripe old age of 12. Let alone when I was 16.

I had the same lack of sex education in my parental home as well and the impact to my older sisters was severe. (this was in the late 60's and early 70's).

My oldest sister didn't know what sex was at all. No clue. She had been engaged in kids playing doctor with our brothers mormon friend, and didn't know that was inappropriate for children, because the kid was a deacon and held the priesthood, so she assumed it was OK. Let's face it the church does some weird things and kids are taught to respect the priesthood holders as men of god. However, she figured out this secretive thing didn't feel right so she hid from the kid the best she could. At 16 she had her first good mormon boyfriend and still didn't know what sex was and got pregnant one night after things progressed. (I think the ban on masturbation is a big problem contributing to unwanted youth pregnancies, but that's got to be another post) At any rate, she still says she had not a clue that was what sex was, and how babies were made. Either she got pulled from the school discussion, or they didn't have any at that time.


My sister was told she would be sent away until she had the baby and then she would give it up for adoption to church services. Sis said no way and raised her beautiful boy on her own as baby daddy was too busy buying 45 LP's at the expense of diapers and food.


My next sister was promiscuous (brothers friend got her too), but avoided the pregnancy trap and went on to marry a pseudo mormon man and they had a ton of kids and she stayed in the church....still is. She thinks this new church is not her church. OK...whatever floats your boat.

Next sister was kept at home away from people. Literally kept on a farm doing chores away from friends or outside activities. When she got a boyfriend at 14, my mom shipped her off many states away to stay with a nice mormon family. She worked performing chores nonstop after school and on weekends, and then was accused of stealing from the family. When the police were called she told the police, if I had stole the money I would have been three states away by now because they treat me like a slave and I'd rather be anywhere than here. My aunt made the effort to check on her and found her bloodied and bruised after a beating and rescued my sister and took her home. My mom wanted to send her away again, so my sister ran away with her boyfriend and the next time I saw her she was almost 16 and 8 months pregnant. Sis stepped up and raised her child on her own and built her career path and exceeded all expectations. Same as our oldest sister.

Next comes me. My mom wasn't going to let it happen to me, so she doubled down on me not going anywhere. I was basically chained to the farm. However, she let me go to camp fire girls and the 80 year old feminist leader was damned sure all of us girls knew about what sex was and how pregnancy occurred. She also had us fill out post cards to Kimberly clark so we could get free tampons and pads sent with instructions for use. My mom was PISSED. When the package arrived she sat me down with my brother two years younger and told us both what I was about to experience when I became a woman. Horrible experience for me, but worse for my brother. He was horrified for me. Actually treated me a lot better after that. Sweet brother!!!

I managed to not get pregnant and left the church at 18. Sis's taught me well.

Key takeaways for me:

children need to be informed about their bodies and how they function in their younger years. If parents aren't going to do it, then I am all in on school education. I paid attention and learned from watching what happened to my sisters.

masturbation should not be condemned for either sex. It's a great stress reliever, and if more mormon boys and girls were banging it themselves maybe the option would prevent more unplanned pregnancies.

I wasn't taught a d@mn thing about sex. My father has been sexually confused his whole life so could not relate to me and my mom taught me nothing. They were quick to condemn me to hell for watching porn though that is for sure. I thought porn was the most evil thing in the world from then on but I loved it. I learned sex and love from porn basically which is not very good.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2018 03:14PM by badam2.