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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 12:58PM

Prop 8 was the California voter-initiated law to outlaw same-sex marriage. It passed in 2008, and included heavy lobbying by members of LDS Inc, with strong encouragement from SLC, but with the admonition the they were acting as "private citizens", and not as a concerted church action. Yeah, right.

The law was soon enough invalidated by the courts, but even before the vote that passed it, there was considerable push-back from people supporting same-sex marriage. I imagine it was pretty uncomfortable in a lot of coastal area California high schools to admit to being a Mormon.

There were probably some Mormon teens (and whole families) who bailed on Mormonism right then, but I expect the greater damage would be that kids would stay, but feel vaguely embarrassed about being Mormon. Given enough time, people will eventually abandon an organization that embarrasses them. All those teens are in their mid to late 20s now, the age when they would start moving into leadership positions.

So my question to the California Mormons on RFM, how is the 22 to 32 year old age group holding up? I'm hoping that now that they have moved away from home, they are voting with their feet on what they were subjected to over Prop 8, and the more recent Policy of Exclusion (PoX). What are you seeing?

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Posted by: nonsequiter ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 03:58PM

I was in high school during the whole prop 8 fiasco. I can tell you it certainly was a concentrated church encouraged action. It was talked about during opening priesthood exercises and our ward even held a special class session for the youth about how to tell people you support "traditional" marriage.

At church was one thing but at school was another. I had plenty of non mormon friends who confronted me about proposition 8. They knew I was mormon and I was pretty much unprepared to really back up what I was taught in church. It of course didn't hep that I was a closeted teen.

I still have contact with some of my mormon acquaintances from back then. There are a handful who never moved past the view we were taught at church, but I'd definitely say more than half of my age group from my city's two high schools are now supportive of LGBT people's right to marry. Most of those have left the church. Of course not all of us who left the church did so over prop 8, but I can say it influenced me very deeply.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 04:54PM

I think non nailed it in reply to this...

"There were probably some Mormon teens (and whole families) who bailed on Mormonism right then, but I expect the greater damage would be that kids would stay, but feel vaguely embarrassed about being Mormon. Given enough time, people will eventually abandon an organization that embarrasses them. All those teens are in their mid to late 20s now, the age when they would start moving into leadership positions."

My kids mostly support gay marriage and they are all Mormon believers. They are either in their 20s or almost. They didn't leave the church over the church's position but the church's position just became irrelevant to them.

PropHate in California was just another LDS political fiasco that failed. Funny how future prophet could lead such a cohort of young LDS people for whom homosexuality is as acceptable as heterosexual couples living together.

"1974[edit]
March – BYU president Oaks delivered a speech on campus in which he spoke in favor of keeping criminal punishment for "deviate sexual behavior" such as private, consensual, same-sex sexual activity. The speech was later printed by the university's press.[134][135][136]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_LGBT_Mormon_history

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 05:01PM

"They didn't leave the church over the church's position but the church's position just became irrelevant to them."

Very well put. I think that's how most of the millennials feel. The church has just moved farther and farther from the real world, the world they inhabit.

Prop 8 was traumatic for those of us who lived through it, and caused a lot of us to leave, but it will take the larger toll on the younger Mormon population. Those kids aren't as invested in the church, which is irrelevant to their lives, and it will be much easier for them simply to walk away.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 11:58AM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Those kids aren't as invested in the
> church, which is irrelevant to their lives, and it
> will be much easier for them simply to walk away.

I want to believe this but I believe the truth is in true Mormon style TBMs are becoming (through succeeding generations) more and more CBMs (Cafeteria Believing Mormons.)


The Mormon population in developed countries will make Mormonism into anything individuals want. I foresee a time when LDS Corp will drop their youth interviews if they find inactivity rates so high that they are desperate for youth participation. Youth activity rates already are dismal in my neighborhood. Of the kids who attended with my kids half pretty much don't go much and the other half are usually like my kids less inclined to be 100% active (activities as well) unless they have nice leaders.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2018 11:58AM by Elder Berry.

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Posted by: GNPE1 ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 04:43PM

O, U mean OTHER THAN the $ members shelled out 'donated' to the cause that won't be coming back to them?

sign me 'curious'

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 07:32PM

I do remember at the time that the amount of $ some of the local members were pressured to "donate" was pretty breathtaking. I remember figures in the $5K to $20K range. Maybe these were well to do members, but donations like that would really sting for most people. Especially when it so quickly became obvious that they had won the battle, but lost the war.

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Posted by: praydude ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 02:37PM

I remember when it was released on the internet - the people who donated to prop 8 and in my home ward in North San Diego county it felt like I was looking at an old ward directory. My old seminary teacher and her husband gave $10k. My old bishop gave $3k.

I don't talk to them anymore but I wonder how they feel about things now...

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: March 29, 2023 10:34PM

We were hit up for $5K.

Elder Allen D. Haynie donated a s__t load of money and time to Prop 8 and he won a chair in the first quorom of 70 for his devotion.

My wife finally bailed because of Prop 8.

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Posted by: EXON46 ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 07:29PM

Prop 8 isn't the first time the church has pushed an agenda.
I grew up with ERA. Which as a teen felt in my heard was a good direction the country needed to go. The Church was really up in arms over it.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: September 24, 2018 08:44PM

I can thank Prop 8 for being the reason I started being angry

at the church and ultimately resigning my membership. The

Relief Society President had asked me If I would donate my

front lawn to use for Prop 8 propaganda to which I angrily

said , not in a million years or over my dead body, or what

ever it was in my usual colorful language.

So, thank you prop 8 for opening my eyes to the true hateful

ness of the moron church.. I'll be forever grateful.

All my gay and lesbian family members and friends are glad

too.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 11:27AM

Mormons blamed prop 8 on the catholics.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 05:37PM

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormons blamed prop 8 on the catholics.


They might have tried to blame it on the catholics but Californians knew that the mormons gave money to get
prop 8 accomplished. I don't remember the exact amount
that the church gave to the prop 8 people but they did
donate to it. I'll have to look it up to find out the
amount.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 05:41PM

https://www.deseretnews.com/.../LDS-Churchs-in-kind-donations-to-Prop-8-total-190...
Feb 3, 2009 - The measure's sponsors raised $39.9 million and had $983,000 left over. The LDS Church said it filed multiple reports on it s Proposition 8 contributions per California law.

That's how much money per the Deseret News, that the mormon church donated.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 02:04PM

saucie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.deseretnews.com/.../LDS-Churchs-in-kin
> d-donations-to-Prop-8-total-190...
> Feb 3, 2009 - The measure's sponsors raised $39.9
> million and had $983,000 left over. The LDS Church
> said it filed multiple reports on it s Proposition
> 8 contributions per California law.

Yes, and several of their multiple reports were filed later than the law allows, and incorrectly stated amounts. Which is why the church was deemed to be in violation of CA election law, and was fined for it. Not to mention that their PR spokesman stated on a radio show, just before the election, that the church had put "zero money" into the campaign, a flat-out lie contradicted by the church's late, law-breaking filings, where they finally admitted having directly contributed several hundred thousand dollars, both as cash and services.

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Posted by: Northern_Lights ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 01:57PM

Only because it failed. If it passed they would take all the credit.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 02:02PM

Prop 8 succeeded. It was enacted into law.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 11:40AM

I live in SoCal but know no Mormons so have can't contribute too your main question. I was glad to read nosequiter's post. The people I know don't even realize who was behind Prop 8.

What I have seen in general is that the Mormons back-pedaled as fast as they could and went into Hinckley mode.

"Prop 8. I don't know that we ever did that. I don't know that we ever emphasized that."

Mormons count on everything ugly they have done fading into the mist. Time is their friend. Their followers are happy to believe the leaders. The rest of the world has better things to do than worry about the selfish arrogant Mormons. So Mormonism goes back to its status as a quaint boutique religion and the gay people keep moving up and most people are just trying to get through their day and don't have time for no Mormons.

So it's history just as they wanted it to be. I would say few Mormons are paying the price for Prop 8.

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Posted by: StillAnon ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 11:53AM

I remember that Steve Young got caught up in that bullshit. The church tried to use his name in Prop 8. To the point that Young's wife, Barbara, who has a gay brother, went on TV to specifically state that the Young family would be voting No on Prop 8 and encouraged others to vote no as well. That shut the church up for a bit.

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Posted by: Honest TB[long] ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 12:35PM

The strong support by the Church for California's Prop 8 of course shall be considered a holy revelation through Monson that will be part of our wondrous legacy for all time and eternity. Only a liar could ever deny that fact. What a joy it is to know that anytime a LDS church president has spoken that the world is able to so wonderfully measure and evaluate how true the Church is by the infallible consistency that such statements have for all time and eternity in this unchangeable wondrous gospel full of doctrines. If the Church actually was fickle/changing then it couldn't possibly be God's true Church.

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 06:18PM

My son was high school age at that time, my guess is about 50% of the kids in the ward with him are now inactive or now nomos.

I quit attending church about 2004, my wife was a NOM / social mormon until prop 8, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for her. I know of several members who were adults who had children, siblings, friends who were gay and targeted by the Church, we were asked relentlessly to go to demonstrations or to give money. Many of these former church friends are now inactive, I don't know if they have had their memberships deleted.

Once when a member called my house to get donations I protested that what they were doing was wrong because being gay was not a choice and people should be able to live a normal happy life without the Church imposing it's standards. The caller broke down crying that they were sick of Prop8 and the Church but their spouse would divorce them if they called it quits. One of the more traumatic exchanges I have had about the Church since being a missionary.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 06:35PM

I have a Prop 8 Story even though I was not in CA at the time.
My next door neighbor in Utah tried to recruit me to go the church and call people in California to discuss Prop 8. I didn't even really realize what it was at the time, but knew I wouldn't be comfortable calling people to tell them how to vote on something- especially for a church activity.

I didn't learn until a few years later what Prop 8 was. Once I did, however, I immediately resigned. I had never jived with the lds outlook on lgbt and gender issues, and when I found out they were involved- I was gone. I refused to be associated with them any longer.

My faith broke down pretty quickly after I resigned and along with it a lot of other beliefs, and now I am atheist/agnostic. I'm not sure it would have really happened without Prop8 first, so... good job church.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: September 25, 2018 06:37PM

Oh, forgot to add. Later in college, I was in the staged reading at UVU "8" about the Prop 8 trials. My TBM parents actually ended up coming to that, which amazed me. Unfortunately, it did nothing to change their minds....

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Posted by: Prop-watcher ( )
Date: September 27, 2018 10:21AM

One change I've noticed: very few people are blaming Marriott anymore. There's been a move in the anti-prop-8 crowd away from "let's blame all companies where a Mormon happened to breathe".

That's a good move, I think. More people are realizing today that the Marriott corporation is on the right side of history on this issue, regardless of the Mormonism of the founding family.

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Posted by: Atari ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 12:51PM

I can't speak for other people, but Prop 8 is what turned me from being simply inactive to a raging anti-Mormon. I am happy to say that many of my family members have left the cult since then.

So yes, Prop 8 did make a difference in my sphere.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 02:08PM

My Dad was very upset that my Mom had donated $$$ to the cause. He believed that the church should not have embroiled itself into supporting prop 8. He correctly believed that if prop 8 passed that the courts would simply strike down the laws. It has since caused problems because my mom's name is forever found on the contributor's list.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 10:16AM

messygoop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Dad was very upset that my Mom had donated $$$
> to the cause. He believed that the church should
> not have embroiled itself into supporting prop 8.
> He correctly believed that if prop 8 passed that
> the courts would simply strike down the laws. It
> has since caused problems because my mom's name is
> forever found on the contributor's list.

I wanted to expound upon an interesting tidbit. I have seen my mom's name on 3 different Prop 8 contributors' lists over the years. Each one has a different amount that she allegedly "donated". While my mom has many problems in her life, she is the most honest member that I have ever known. She has always told me that she donated a twenty dollar bill because that's all the she had and didn't really want to donate in the first place. I'm not sure who inflated or may have "matched" her donation, but her name is associated with 100, 500 and 1000 dollar donation amounts on different lists.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 02:07PM

I know a person, a stake president at the time, who was listed in the donation roles for $500 and for $25,000. That was at the stage when the church was calling rich members and asking that they donate the latter sum.

What happened was that he initially answered the call to contribute with the smaller amount--I presume he wasn't emotionally onboard--and then gave the larger amount when instructed to do so.

Anyway, it could easily be that your mother made multiple donations that showed up in different places in different ways, the numbers rising as the church increased the pressure.

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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 05:20PM

I'll never forget the Mormon man in the Sacramento area who gave his sons' college money to the Prop. 8 cause. "My sons will be proud of me for doing it," he predicted. I wonder how those young men feel about it now?

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Posted by: Tembor ( )
Date: March 29, 2023 05:44PM

To this day, 15 years later, whenever I meet someone, before I hire someone, decide on whether to admit a new member to my country club, etc..., I ALWAYS look to the donor list. To the day I die, I will never forget how Mormons behaved around prop 8.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 29, 2023 11:52PM

I remember thinking at the time that Mormon kids in HS and middle school in California would be embarrassed to admit in public that they were Mormon.

When you are trapped in an organization that embarrasses you, eventually, you are going to leave.

All those California kids are now in their thirties or early forties. I would love to know how many have left.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 29, 2023 11:59PM

The numbers are huge. I've heard estimates of 80%, which is compatible with the families I know.

I don't think many of the young people would attribute their defections to Prop 8. It's more subtle than that. For kids that grow up in the church, they just never embrace the organization and its claims. Racism is one discomfiting factor, homophobia another. But the young heretics--a bizarre word in this context since they don't care one way or the other--don't have strong memories of the initiative itself, especially those who have never lived in California.

There are at this point lots of straws on the camel's back.

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Posted by: bluebutterfly ( )
Date: April 02, 2023 02:30PM

I can honestly say I was always embarrassed to be known as Mormon as a kid! I remember kids in elementary school harassing me about polygamy and wanted to see if horns were growing out of my head. TSCC never sat right with me.

I'm in CA and I'm always shocked when I find out that anyone I went to high school with is still Mo. You really have to have your head buried in the sand to be in it.

I remember my parents had a Prop 8 sign in their front yard during that time. Now I'm wondering how much $$$ they put into that. My guess is in the thousands.

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Posted by: dydimus ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 06:59AM

The Prop 8 fallout was "news" but really didn't hit the head/heart as much as MoCorp deciding not only to hate and torment LGBTQ parents; but now to attack children? And to make it policy that the children, to stay in the church, would have to deny their parents LEGAL marriage or Loving relationships. Everyone could see that was pure evil. Even CIS conservative members could see that as a step way, way too far....

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 01:55PM

It was one big fuckup. Then the sudden reversal on the baptism decision made church prophets look like buffoons. The church lost the PR battle and has the scars to show it.

Oh well. Focus on Africa.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 02:01PM

People leave the church when the benefits of staying in are less that the benefits of leaving. It’s that simple. If the pot of gold is worth running the gauntlet of shame you will do it. Man leaving hurts so good!

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 01:52PM

Most my California LDS friends view Prop 8 as a huge disaster. It made LDS church members hated in California right at a time where LDS people were accepted more than they ever were. That acceptance turn to hate because of Prop 8. I know some people who have left. Others stay in but hide the fact they are a Mormon because they don’t want to endanger their career.

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Posted by: Villager ( )
Date: March 30, 2023 03:06PM

I can't find a list of donators to Prop 8. All my searches come to a dead end. Does anyone know where an active list is? I have a few relatives I want to check out.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 02, 2023 03:30PM

I can't promise it will work, and what with General Conference starting in 30 minutes, I'm just to darn excited to sit still and tickle my keyboard into confirming this possible source...

https://cal-access.sos.ca.gov/Campaign/Committees/Detail.aspx?id=1303282&view=received&session=2007

This supposedly covers 2007 and 2008.

If it works, I'll get my reward in heaven.

If it doesn't work, I'll get my reward in heaven.



Update: It works! It's not alphabetical so it would take a long time to peruse 'numb'erous pages.  But ctrl-F works so that could cut the search time down...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2023 03:35PM by elderolddog.

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