Quoting from administrator Maude:

“Hi saucie: It's not directed at only you (even if it feels like it). More that we're in flux, reviewing the rule. Mod decisions can be challenging as many things are not black/white and some interpretation and nuance may be in play (especially with the recent change in status in some areas from illegal to legal). Also, as always, it's a question of mod time. We may see something on a thread we have to delete and then not get back to the thread for a while unless there's a report about a post. It's far from an exact science. You can always query why you've disappeared if it's not obvious or seems unduly unfair.”

Well, here I am making some queries.


I have noticed a rash of deleted posts, both mine and several other posters. I can only assume that the administration of this board has stepped up its monitoring; for that I offer my kudos. It’s a hard and often thankless job and all of the administrators commitment to the board indicates, at least in my view, their dedication and care they have for a forum that has been incredibly meaningful and instrumental in the recovery of legions of individuals, including myself, from the clutches of Mormonism.

With all that said...

It seems like their has been an excessively large amount of post-deleting going on lately. From posts I can remember (mine or others I know to have been deleted) I don’t recall any that had inflammatory language or contained offensive content to any degree. Best I can surmise, the posts were reported (I suspect from the same individual in many cases) due to offense or irritation or hurt feelings, albeit over the internet. I don’t know if that in and of itself is enough to get a post deleted; I assume the reporter, or administrator who saw the post(s) considered it off topic, although the posts were in response to other posts and so far as I can recall reasonably germane to the topic of the thread, or at least related to the direction the thread had taken.

Now my concern is what seems to be the very low threshold and tolerance for in-thread deviation- even if someone has deviated from the topic, which I still submit an argument can be made that these deleted posts were unwarranted and the posts were relevant. Even if someone’s opinion on that matter differed, is the appropriate response to just delete the post? It seems severe. Deleted posts disrupt threads, distort the context of the posts and compromise posters abilities to respond appropriately to other posts or defend arguments or positions in otherwise civil discourse.

It just seems like there’s been a real heavy hand lately. Sometimes I’m completely unaware of why a post had been deleted, there is rarely an explanation by the deleting admin offered, and as far as I know, other than what I’m doing now their is no way to appeal against the deletion or offer explanations. Is there any oversight from other administrators regarding thread and post deletion? Some kind of peer review? Are the deleted posts kept somewhere to be reviewed if needed, or do they just disappear into the ether? I know in a forum I once moderated when a post was deleted a reasoning was placed in lieu of the deleted post, possibly to hold the administration and moderators to account. I don’t know if this is possible or not. I also was able to view deleted posts or reverse deletion.

These are questions and concerns, and I hope some people take them seriously and this thread is allowed to be seen and stay open. Let’s be unlike the church we all rail against and tolerate some constructive criticism with a respectful tone. I feel I’ve been respectful and have abided by the board rules, in the creation of this thread and for the most part in my conduct as a poster. I know, as I’m sure others do, their have been times where I have deserved to have my posts deleted for being obscene or a jerk or whatnot, and for that I apologize. It’s no excuse to say I’ve observed others behaving that way and decided to follow suit.

I take this forum seriously and hold many here in high regard. I respect and admire anyone who has the guts and the bravery to free themselves from the Mormon church, and appreciate their stories and viewpoints. I think my life is better because of what I’m able to observe and participate in here and I hope others feel the same way.

I would like to be able to participate a little better, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 02:33PM by midwestanon.

Midwestanon,

I think a lot of the deletions are due to politics or, in the recent anonthegreat cases, overt proselytizing. I was frustrated when a lot of substance went away with what is now the Bosnian pyramid discussion, but I understand why it happened.

I'm just glad I don't have to make the decisions. It's far from obvious where to draw the lines.

Exactly. I felt like a lot of substantive content in threads you and I both posted in were deleted, which just kind of mucked everything up. The worst part, at least from where I’m standing, was that it was in no way clear to me why it was happening. Just seemed really arbitrary. I understand there is an ebb and flow with regard to how strictly or loosely certain rules are enforced and why it is that way (political climate etc.) but I would hate for anyone here to become pharisaical about the enforcement of one particular rule, with regard to reporting or enforcing.

Not that I’m saying that’s necessarily happening.

I think a lot of this is understandable if we assume that the mods are busy people and have no training in legal sophistry. Or don't use that training.

Some of those rules are tough to implement uniformly, so there is an element of unintentionally unfairness. But it is unintentional.

I presume the mods are doing their best to justify their astronomical compensation packages.

The "heavy hand" is due to the way the board is configured. If a given post is deleted, then the responding posts will ALSO be hidden (in that one, initial, action).

Today, for example, there is a thread where many posts were deleted, but it was because we needed to delete the "originating" post [singular] in either the thread itself, or in the sub-threads which had formed as a result of the original post.

To take out ONLY the originating problem post (in either the main threads, or in the various sub-threads) would leave numerous "orphan posts" behind, and those posts would make no sense because what they were responding to would no longer "exist."

There have been discussions about this for as long as I have been on this board (fifteen years), and there is no way around having to do this, for many different reasons--and we are all sorry when, for whatever reason, this happens.

(Edited: Small terminology changes)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 07:05PM by Maude.

Tevai covered why some good posts get deleted. When we delete an offending post, replies to it are deleted as well. Some great replies unfortunately get lost that way. Too much preaching and just plain weird stuff has been posted lately taking a bit of our time. Weird stuff example - god took animals to another planet so earth could have a flood. We have many newbies all the time. We lose credibility when crazy posts stay up. We are doing the best we can.


(Edited to make slight terminology changes)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 07:06PM by Maude.

Laughter.*


*About the extraterrestrial giraffes and rhinos.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 02:26PM by Lot's Wife.

Thank you both, Eric and Tevai, for responding. Just knowing I’m being heard helps :). And as always, Lot’s Wife, thank you for your responses, which are always thoughtful and erudite.

It’s all about me, me, ME!!! :D



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 02:31PM by midwestanon.

I want to apologize to you Erik for getting way out of line over the last year and half. I was trying to get out of a duressful situation and I know that is no excuse. For the most part my head is on its shoulders although I am not perfect and still vent. I am very ok with my posts getting deleted because mine are all venting still and have nothing really to contribute. Its better if my have no responses so I do not get triggered and say something stupid and regretful. I am a PTSD victim of that religion so my mind has not been completely healed totally I guess you could say but it is healing for sure with the professional help I have been getting. Understanding what the he'll was going on with my brain was a huge thing. I did not know I had PTSD till a couple years ago. Thanks for the patience you had with me for about a year. I come from a home where I was not allowed to speak my mind with a brutal and scary father. So yea thanks. I figure in a few years I'll be doing pretty good in life overall.

The rules are also a warning. Respond to crazy threads at your own risk. They may be deleted.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The rules are also a warning. Respond to crazy
> threads at your own risk. They may be deleted.

This is true.

Babylon is a wise sage on this issue.

It's a three-for-one day today - you're getting Tevai and me and the big boss himself in one place.

midwestanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Quoting from administrator Maude:
> "...You can always query why you've
> disappeared if it's not obvious or seems unduly
> unfair.”

Yeah, I knew that would come back to bite me. Really, it's OK, good to have a chat.

> I can only assume that
> the administration of this board has stepped up
> its monitoring

No, we're putting in the usual hours, days, weeks, months... Maybe it's more that there has been extra work to do lately.

> a forum that has been incredibly
> meaningful and instrumental in the recovery of
> legions of individuals, including myself, from the
> clutches of Mormonism.

Good to hear. Eric started with a simple enough idea, to answer questions about Mormonism and offer support to ex-members. That was over 20 years ago when there wasn't so much information out there and not as many exmos, by far, could easily get in touch with each other. The central purpose remains to focus on the Mormon Church.

>... posts were reported (I suspect from the same individual in many cases) due to offense or
> irritation or hurt feelings

It's hard to guess from out there and without the information we can see from here, you'd likely often be wrong. For sure don't start holding grudges based on incomplete information.

> I don’t know if that in and of itself is enough to get a post deleted

No, it isn't. We evaluate every report made by posters and take moderator action based on whether a post is against the stated rules or not. Often though it's a judgment call and not a simple black/white choice.

> Is there any oversight from
> other administrators regarding thread and post
> deletion? Some kind of peer review?

Yes. Every moderator action is visible by all other mods and Admin. Sometimes you will see a decision reversed after we consult with each other. We don't like to delete posts. We're aware of the time and thought put into creating the discussions. It hurts us too to see great replies having to go along with the offending post that has to be deleted. Sometimes we will talk about a comment or topic before any action is taken so a post or thread may have been reviewed before many even read it. One example is if the subject is political. Many know that politics used to not be allowed. Eric relaxed that rule but asks that the thread author relate their comment to Mormonism. You can see that doesn't always happen. Some of these threads are (benevolently) left up, others have to go if the issue is too red hot (appointing Supreme Court Justices at the moment for eg). Some political topics are okay at one point and not another and perhaps all right if addressed in a general sense and not specific to a certain event.

We appreciate everyone here who posts as the guidelines request. You make this forum. We'd hate to be staring at the same eight threads for days at a time. Most people are respectful of Eric, the board and each other. A few others though do keep us busy.

Please everyone, if you're not sure of the rules review them. We don't enjoy deleting your posts. If you don't respond to obvious trolls or posts that will likely get deleted (eg: preaching) you won't waste energy on something that is going to get taken down. (If you are going to a lot of trouble to write a masterpiece maybe save a copy. If the post you wanted to answer is deleted maybe you can still post yours if it can stand alone without the deleted post, which includes not referencing the deleted post).

One big reason we don't usually speak to posters on their threads or posts is that we don't like to do it in front of everybody.


If you can watch the following everything you write will be enshrined for as long as we last:

- No partisan politics
- No swearing in subject line of post
- No swearing in post without a language warning in subject line
- No fighting with each other, including insults, mocking, bullying, dogging each other's threads, belittling and other negative behavior
- No accusing someone of being a troll - do not respond on the thread to a suspected troll - just report it instead
- No diagnosing anyone with physical or mental conditions
- Be courteous
- Everything else I am forgetting

As Eric has often said, moderation can be largely subjective, even between moderators. What you consider partisan politics (especially if you have a strong opinion about the topic in question) someone else may think is just another day at RfM. It can be a judgment call for the mods. For example, when Mitt Romney was campaigning/running for office the White Horse Prophecy was often brought up. Politics was not allowed at that time at all anyway but especially so with Romney in the race. Now we do allow limited politics and WH prophecy doesn't get deleted any more (to date). Another example: We can discuss assault, abuse, misogyny, etc in general but perhaps not if it relates to an ongoing court case, or if there are allegations but no resolution, in general, and especially not if it is connected to current politics. So timing can factor in too.

The differences and considerations involved can be subtle which makes moderating challenging. But we try. That's why we do indeed earn the big bucks. (That's a joke, we are all volunteers).

Thank you all for caring about RfM.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2018 07:57PM by Maude.

It's unusual for us to respond on the board but today's the day it looks like. We definitely don't discuss in public any disagreements between posters, to be respectful of all parties, but this time, keeping names out of it, a few words about your recent post about another person (your post is now in the great garbage can in the sky as it's deemed to be a personal attack - not allowed to do that to other posters, especially by name).

All moderators can do is monitor posts on RfM to make sure they are within guidelines. Unless public and obvious we can't take off board things and consider them here as a reason for someone not to be able to post. If someone is posting within the rules their posts will stay. If someone is attacking that poster the attacks have to be deleted. This may look to some that one poster is being favoured and another being treated unfairly, not given an opportunity to state their opinion, but it's just a case of one writing an attack post (or anything that goes against the rules) and the other poster not doing that.

We try to make RfM welcoming to all (except Mormon apologists, as stated). Fighting, arguing, expressing dislike of others on the board, undue criticism and other unpleasantness are not allowed. People don't come here expecting to be a target and who needs it - we never know where people are at emotionally. Maybe they just left the church last week and are struggling in the new and strange outside world. Perhaps they are feeling depressed. Not many sign up for the boxing ring, as the punching bag. Other posters don't want to read attack posts either. So nobody wants it to happen to them and most don't want to see it being done to others.

This board obviously can't provide therapy and definitely doesn't promise that. But we can try and maintain a peaceful, if still lively, atmosphere. So we have a few rules. Posts that go against them have to be deleted. The least we can aim for is that people feel better, not worse, by reading the board. You too, Elder Old Dog.

(Again, whether something is an attack or not can be subjective - we have to decide as mods and then keep or discard the post in question).

We do try to be consistent among the moderators, as well as through time. That is, making decisions in line with how previous decisions have been reached and why. Again, not exact science. But we sure put in the effort to be fair as well as impartial.

Interesting discussion!

Thanks for the interesting, even fascinating, inside look!

Yes, thank you Maude, that was helpful. I was unaware of the peer review, I’m sure it’s good for everyone that it’s there.

I agree the presence of administrators works best (mostly) unseen, as opposed to actively participating in say, debating. But popping in occasionally to do this sort of thing is helpful, when one desires clarification or really wants to do better. Given that as you stated things are sometimes in flux it may need to happen more often, I dunno. I can definitely see why more work is needing to be done, as you said: there are things on RfM that must take up a lot of the admins time.

Err, not that I’m telling the administration how or when they should post... :)

I was recently disappointed to see a reply thread to a poster deleted. I only did so because the original thread was closed by the time I got back to it.

It was a post about prayer. I wasn't preaching just answering a direct question to me.

I didn't know if it was the content or because it was a reply to another poster. It wasn't an attack. I just answered his question to me.

If so, I'd suggest you mitigate replies by frequently saying phrases like "In my opinion" or "This is just how I happen to see it."

My suggestion would be to stay away from politics and preaching if your posts are being deleted. It seems to me those are the main reasons for removing posts.

(You write very nicely which makes me think your posts aren't removed for swearing or rudeness as sometimes happens here.)