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Posted by: Scarletfish ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 12:33PM

Help explaining the church to non-mormons?

My closest friend is the only one I've told about leaving, and she's 100% atheist. I don't know how to explain the deep internal conflict I have over even small decisions, the guilt, increased anxiety and depression, loss of identity, fear of retribution from everyone I know, mission ptsd (I don't even know if it's fair to call it that, sorry if I offend anyone), etc.

I've looked for an article succinctly explaining what it's like to leave and why it's such a struggle when you know it's not true, but I can't find one so I thought I'd ask here. My friend is very supportive, but has voiced a few times it's hard for her to understand with no religious background.

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Posted by: Paintingnotloggedin ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 01:03PM

I don’t know I think explaining personal processing & internal cognation to friends or neighbors only gets in the way of the gardening or coffee or enjoying brunch together

Is this one friend a sort of intimate? Is there any reason you see you want them to know your thought processes? (Instead of doing or snowboarding or something together? It’s not like inner thought processes are small talk walking along main street USA anywhere I know )

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 01:15PM

My lifelong partner is one of those who first time he heard the Noah's Ark thing as a kid thought is was ridiculous while I ate it up. He never gave religion a second thought.

He does not understand at all even after all this time how deep and pernicious the Mormon tentacles are and how hard it can be at times to come to terms with it all once we knew the lie. He thinks I should just get over it the same as if someone had cut me off in traffic and I was upset.

Most have no way to understand.

If your friend is the empathetic sort (mine isn't) the right article could really help.

Why don't you take some time to write your story. Just write about your first bishop interview as a small start. Write somethings your parent did. Write about how you felt about your struggle with your own feelings not jiving with the strict obedience of the church but how you felt you had no choice but to obey. Think of an experience where a church leader made you feel 'less than." Unworthy. How that felt. Why you allowed that to happen as we all did.

Let those sit on the page for a while. Go over and over them. Maybe have someone who is good with writing read over it. Give that to your friend or someone else who loves you.

I wrote mine out. Did me a world of good. Ended up with nearly seven hundred pages. You don't need to do that. Four or five pages will work wonders. There is a lot of power in the written word carefully considered.

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Posted by: Paintingnotloggedin ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 01:23PM

That’s a nice idea Done & Done. I like it because it honors both scarlet fish stated intention to make transparency about unshared experiences with her atheist friend and the need to honor those experiences

In a way that won’t interfere with snowboarding or enjoying brunch walking on any mai street together USA

That’s cool

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 01:27PM

Never stop having fun no matter what else is going on. Right you are, Painting! I'm still skiing though--not ready for no snowboarding.

I also found that writing it out sorts it all out in your head like just thinking about it never does.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 01:16PM

I've found finding a couple exMormon friends in real life helped so much for me after over a decade of finding understanding ears here.

I got to the point where I needed to commiserate in person with people about the experiences of my past.

It is natural. I hope you can find someone.

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Posted by: scarletfish ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 06:21PM

thanks everyone for your suggestions- Painting, you're right it's not common small talk over here either XD I don't talk about it at all with most people, but this one friend is very close and has been concerned (and I'm sure a bit frustrated) with my mood swings and changing behaviors.

Done&Done, my friend has a similar outlook- leaving the church is like trying a new coffee shop. She asks questions and tries to understand, but I can't always explain what I'm feeling. I definitely am still getting rid of toxic habits and thinking patterns.

(For example why worry that if my siblings find out that I got a tattoo, they will leave the church themselves and be damned... which I don't even believe anymore... I get why she's confused.)

Writing it out actually sounds very therapeutic! If anyone knows any articles either that resonated with them I'd love to hear it

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 11:11AM

(For example why worry that if my siblings find out that I got a tattoo, they will leave the church themselves and be damned... which I don't even believe anymore... I get why she's confused.)


Ha ha. This made me laugh. I had those kind of knee jerk reactions for years after I figured out the fraud of Mormonism. The indoctrination runs very, very deep and it takes a while for that nonsense to pack it's bags and go.

I always liken it to getting on then plane for a vacation and then having the thought occur, 'Did I lock the front door?'

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 06:52PM

to go see my therapist as he doesn't understand what being raised mormon did to me. My therapist knows immediately what I'm talking about. I'm also lucky that my ex is an exmormon. Many of my family members are out. Most of them are. My son is out.

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Posted by: badam2 ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 12:08AM

My counselor is an ex-mo and it does help. She got out young but was born in it. She said I was the most knowledgeable ex-mo or Mormon she had ever counseled with. That was a crazy compliment I did not expect. I did feel experienced that he'll on earth(Mormonism) from almost every angle. I know almost every tactic they do to control people because it was all used on me for many years.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 28, 2018 11:52PM

100% Atheist ??? As opposed to ...

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 02:49PM

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 100% Atheist ??? As opposed to ...


Dave: Scarletfish explains it right here:

"...it's hard for her [the atheist friend] to understand with no religious background."

The focus isn't that the friend is atheist but rather because she is atheist she doesn't automatically understand what it's like to be in an all-consuming religion and then to leave it.

Even people of faith, if used to mainstream church communities, can have trouble knowing what it's like because they don't have the same experiences. There is no almighty leader, no rigid structure or hierarchy, no exorbitant expectations, no church practices/beliefs laying out your path from cradle to grave, no church authority checking up on you; in short, no looming presence in your life acting like a keeper and robbing you of your own free will. Mainstream churchgoers can switch between denominations with no repercussions. They can choose for themselves which beliefs and practices they want to observe and to what degree. They can skip church on Sunday, attend sporadically, leave altogether, without being cast out of society. They can still maintain their church friends if they and the friends want. They can even stop attending any church at all and nobody will come knocking on their door to try and bully them back or condemn their decision. There are no proclamations from on high governing one's behaviour, choices and life. (I'm talking "mainstream"; of course it's different on the more fundamentalist side). In mainstream, it's more a question of having a central belief in common (God) and a general acceptance of the main doctrines (that which defines an individual denomination; if you don't agree with or like it you can switch - you still have the central beliefs in common with fellow congregants).

This is in stark contrast, as we know, from fundamentalist groups like JWs and Mormons.

If a person doesn't have experience with these types of controlling environments it is difficult/impossible for them to understand what the big deal is for the person who has been immersed in it and then leaves. They have to cope with their programming (often from birth), their family members' reactions (often negative), their own feelings and reactions, the loss of friendships, loss of place in their family (especially severe for many exmos), the real potential for losing a marriage (Mormonism) and the upheaval of their entire world perhaps. They must deal with their own private world of shock, loss, grief, confusion, pain, questions, regrets and emotional reactions. There is a private place of loneliness where nobody can feel how you feel even if in general they get part of it (such as exmos understanding each other). Some pain is yours alone.

Some people are thrilled to find out that Mormonism isn't "true" and they can't get away quickly enough. Still they may take time to adjust and come to terms with what happened in their life. Others, depending on their circumstances both in and out of the church, may be happy to get away from it but are struggling with the sequelae of their experiences there.

Many outsiders will see only that you left a church, switched to a new one, don't attend one any more, whatever is obvious on the surface. The emotional part is largely invisible. It may look to them like changing a job or buying a new car. Riding in your shiny new red convertible how can you possibly miss your old hack.

When I left the JWs I was besieged by workmates (and bosses too) asking me to go with them to their various churches. To them it was just an invite, to me it felt like unholy pressure. The very last thing I needed at that time was to start attending a new church (after years of the programming that there is only one true church, as well as wanting a break altogether from religion). I needed some breathing space. Nobody recognized that. They were so happy I had left the JWs. They thought it would be fabulous for me to experience their church. It was just more unbearable pressure for me, with a different name.

So, it can be a lonely process, not understood by people of other faiths or by those who are not religious, especially if they have never been churchgoers.

That's what I get out of Scarletfish describing her friend as "100% atheist" and wanting to know if there's a way to explain all the above, and more, to her.

Even if you can say the words it's hard for someone who's never had anything like the same experience to understand what it's like in the way we would wish.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 08:57PM

What if a person is only 42.7 percent Atheist ?

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Posted by: anon2828 ( )
Date: September 29, 2018 12:33AM

I feel you on the loss of identity. That's a big one. I like the writing it out as a story suggestion. One thing you could do is ask your friend what he/she centers their identity on. They may say something along the lines of a specific hobby, friendship, family, a specific ideology/philosophy, etc. Whatever they tell you, help them imagine what life would be like without it. This should help them understand why it's hard for you to move on in life at this point. The second difficult part is explaining why it's not part of your identity anymore and why you can't accept it anymore. That's about explaining the negative, draining aspects of Mormonism. You miss the fact that this was your life for a long time, but the bad outweighs the good.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 04:49PM

I had it from a combination of an abusive childhood plus an abusive marriage that I thought I was "escaping" into.

I can recall being thrilled that the combination of symptoms I had had a name and was a real, diagnosible and treatable problem.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: September 30, 2018 10:10PM

Mormonism is about installing "buttons" in you from infancy.
You are conditioned in no uncertain terms exactly how to think,
feel, and act. This conditioning is still there after your
higher cognitive functions finally realize that their claims are
bogus. The "buttons" are still there and can be pushed by just
about anything. Things that are simple actions for those who
have never been in a cult are a complex process involving
consciously suppressing the "button reactions" for those of us
whose personalities were formed in a cult.

Add to this the ton of semi-hidden, passive-aggressive crap
(which is attached to the "buttons") we have to negotiate in
dealing with our close relatives and you have what the average
human who never was in a cult just can't understand.

Mormonism is a form of mental illness.

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Posted by: scarletfish ( )
Date: October 06, 2018 01:38AM

*For people asking about the 100% atheist haha I just meant she was never born in a religion, none of her family is religious, and she's never questioned or been interested in god. Sorry if I offended anyone- nightingale explained things perfectly

It's so great to hear people putting the same things I'm dealing with into words- I like the button analogy baura, that's perfect.

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