So my sister just posted a blog about my "probably autistic) nephews baptism. She said he wouldn't even dare to put his toes in the water. He was screaming and they tried to do a bunch of things and nothing worked until they shut the doors. She said they talked to him beforehand and he REALLY wanted to be baptized, but turned out to just be afraid of the water.

She sounded shocked he didn't automatically do it. She was also surprised they let her in the font to help lower him in.

I still can't even... this is so cruel. I wonder what I would have done if I was there... I probably would have walked out because if I said anything my family would kill me.

I've never really had much anger at the church until now. How can they not make exceptions? How can my family sit there and force their kid under water? Why are they all so brainwashed to allow this to happen and think it's a good thing?

The other day saw a video on Facebook where a priest slapped a baby who wouldn't stop crying at a baptism. My sister commented how cruel and awful that was... just a few days after they tortured my nephew with baptism...

I hope my nephew is okay and this doesn't give him nightmares, trust issues, or ptsd. It's really done a number on me and I wasn't even there!

Oh my. I've known of people who couldn't get baptized because of learning disabilities or physical limitations that TSCC decreed made them incapable of understanding the covenant of baptism.

To force your autistic nephew does sound traumatic.

My mom nearly drowned as a young child. She was sitting in her pram under the care of her two older sisters who became distracted. The pram rolled down a hill and straight into a pond. A nearby man jumped in to save my mom. Despite her young age she still remembers this incident. She has had a lifelong fear of water. So she missed out on going swimming. We practically lived at the beach in our younger years and she never came into the water with us. She still shudders at the idea of being on a boat. I can get her infrequently onto a large ferry but she can't look out the window (at the magnificent mountains, ocean, wildlife, birds) and certainly can't go outside on deck. Offer her a round-the-world cruise - she shakes.

Imprinted experiences go deep. Last long. Hurt over and over.

I hope most parents know not to force children to experience fear. Bad enough when accidents occur and big baggage has to be hefted through life.

Here's hoping your nephew will be OK after all, Cftexan. I know they say kids are resilient. But hopefully as many as possible have good memories of their youth and don't have to deal with the dark side, especially inflicted by adults when it didn't need to happen.

I think partly things like this come about due to ideas cementing themselves into people's mindsets to the point they can't be creative. As someone else maybe mentioned, on this or the first thread, they could always have done a ritual without having to completely dunk the boy, such as sprinkling, dabbling (hands in water) or something else to show the intent. God could figure it out.

Or at least wait until a child is not in obvious fear. That is just so very wrong. I too ask why. Why is a ceremony more important than a child's well-being. Why couldn't it be postponed. Why get so intense that you don't respond to a scared young boy's needs. Was it an imperative of the universe that he get dunked that day? He may have been better just watching. Or maybe never participating at all. Jesus was creative as they would know from their scriptures (Bible anyway). And God reads hearts and minds (scriptures again).

So the ritual is of much less importance.

Unless you lose perspective.

Which is what happens when format is emphasized over common sense.

For any child, a scary time is often always remembered. Many can't be avoided. Why impose one on a kid?

WWJD as somebody asked in another thread. At the least, if you believe in him, he was creative and not wedded to ritual, that I can tell anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2018 11:18PM by Nightingale.

Thanks Nightingale, that was very well put. It's everything I wish I could say to them. I'm glad he has me as an aunt. Every other member of my family are deep TBM's. At least I know that I will be there for any of my family or nieces and nephews if they ever start questioning or want to leave. If he ever wants to talk about this bad experience, I'll be there.

Heartbreaking! He probably will be forever traumatized by this experience. I don't get why TBMs are OFFENDED by the baptisms that Catholics do...sprinkling water. They are so hell-bent on full immersion. It's symbolic anyway! Washing away of sins by immersion is symbolic. Your dirty sin germs aren't literally being cleansed from your body. WTF?? But I can tell you that my parents and Mormonism in general brainwashed me to think as a child that a sprinkling-style baptism is blasphemy and not legit.

... which is even worse.

Roman Catholic baptism is no such thing, since it is nothing like what John the Baptist did.

That said, I'm not sure the arm to the square is Biblical in the LDS.

Even ex-Catholics don't regard infant baptism as a bad thing. I was baptized as an infant, and it is fully transferable if I want to join another mainstream Christian church. Or I can simply shrug and disregard it. No one will ever come after me saying that I "chose" to be baptized and owe anyone anything because of that.

Catholics do have a separate ceremony for confirmation, which does mark a choice (of sorts.) It happens around 12 years of age. Like Mormon baptism and confirmation, it is a cultural expectation for the youth of the church. Even then, ex-Catholics have no problem walking away from the church if they choose otherwise at some point.

One of the Mormons' biggest mistakes is the power they give to the things man does. Its what you wear to church, not what is in your heart, its the correct saying of the sacrament prayer, its the no coffee or tea, and its the amount of water for baptism. If you really believed in a powerful loving God, certainly you would believe he was more powerful than the water.

It's very hard to sit back as know that this happened to child you know and love.

That priest was monstrous to slap that poor baby. Makes me want to slap some sense into him. Or at least take the baby away somewhere safe.

I thought that people with mental challenges don't require baptism. That's what the doctrine used to say.

cludgie Wrote:
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> I thought that people with mental challenges don't
> require baptism. That's what the doctrine used to
> say.

Yes, Cludgie. That's how it was when I grew up. If there was a reason to suspect cognitive or developmental disability, the interview was taken a step beyond the usual so that accountability could be determined - probably by someone incapable of making the determination, but it was at least an attempt. Now it seems that everyone is baptized. If a person's mental age is < 8 or if emotions are such that the water frightens them, what is the point?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2018 01:50AM by scmd1.

In this case it seems you're absolutely right, Cheryl, but they do seem to be baptizing people who might not have been baptized in earlier times. When my wife (then my fiance) was completing her master's in ed psych, she had to administer a Weschler Intelligence Scale for Children to a child with Down Syndrome who scored in the "moderate intellectually disabled" (or moderate mental retardation; I'm not sure if it was before or after Rosa's Law) range. I believe his quotient was in the low-to-mid 40's. His family was in my brother's ward, and when we attended sac. mtg. for my niece's blessing roughly a year later, his baptism was announced.

My wife would not normally have discussed anything as sensitive as a child's IQ score even with me, but she was shocked that whomever was charged with making such decisions would have decided to go ahead with the child's baptism in a system in which accountability was a condition of baptism. She brought it up in the privacy of our car, and didn't even tell the rest of the family that she knew the child. The child's parents didn't indicate in any way that they recognized or remembered her from the IEP meeting. (My Latina wife stuck out like a sore thumb in my brother's Utah County ward even with two-hundred or so people in attendance.)

When I was younger, the trend seemed to be more along the lines of considering such children "special spirits" who had no need for baptism. Now in many cases the local leadership seems to proceed with the ordinance. I'm not saying it's good or bad. For that matter, if a child truly desires to be baptized, it probably IS good neither to label a child nor to to deprive a child of having his or her moment in the spotlight just as all the other children have theirs. (I wish they offered that same level of inclusivity to the offspring of LGBTQ parents, but that's another topic.) It's noteworthy only in that it seems to differ from past protocol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2018 11:03PM by scmd1.

Something tells me that if he REALLY wanted to be baptized, he would have braved the water to get what he wanted.

I agree, he would have willingly gotten in the water and allowed himself to be dunked. That's why I don't buy into the idea that an 8 year old "chose" to be baptized, even for those who have no disabilities.

"CHOSE to be baptized" seems to be the line family members are using about every kid who is baptized now. I never heard it until maybe ten years ago. Now they're all saying it - my siblings included - about their kids. I don't get why it's so important to them to say that now when it wasn't important for so many generations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2018 04:15PM by scmd1.

According to the Didache, a first century Christian manual written in Ancient Greek, pouring water on the head is an acceptable form of baptism. Sprinkling has been interpreted to be a form of pouring. Many, many churches sprinkle instead of immerse.Why do Mormons have to be so stubborn?

Sprinkling definitely isn't baptism, especially when done on babies who have no say in the matter.

'Baptizo' is the Greek for immersion, not sprinkling or putting a few drops on a sleeping baby's head.

Baptism is an adaptation of the Jewish mikveh which was used on Gentiles in some forms of early Judaism.

The apostles who wrote the Didache gave permission for it. Remember, this is FIRST CENTURY. Children go through confirmation where they accept the Baptismal Promises at about age 13.

Typeher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sprinkling definitely isn't baptism, especially
> when done on babies who have no say in the
> matter.
>
> 'Baptizo' is the Greek for immersion, not
> sprinkling or putting a few drops on a sleeping
> baby's head.
>
> Baptism is an adaptation of the Jewish mikveh
> which was used on Gentiles in some forms of early
> Judaism.

Catholics don't "sprinkle," they pour. :-)

One thing no one here is considering is that handicapped children want to participate in activities they see their siblings and friends doing. For example, one of my older sisters (who has passed away) was mentally handicapped. She functioned at the cognitive level of a 4-6 year old. However, she always wanted to do what she saw her siblings and friends doing: primary, baptism, girls camp, young women's, dating, driving, go to the temple, go on a mission, get married.

My parents completely understood her cognitive limitations, and yet, it was heartbreaking to hear her ask, "When do I get baptized?" or "When do I get to drive?" or get a job, have a boyfriend, go to college, go to the temple, get married... My sister was intelligent enough to understand that she was often left out from participating in the life experiences she saw others have.

So, out of compassion, my parents provided opportunities for her to experience as many of those life milestones as possible. They did "let" her get baptized, knowing that she did not, nor ever would, understand the religious significance of it, nor did they ever believe that a loving God would hold her accountable to baptismal covenants.

Parents of handicapped children, and Church leaders who minister to them, aren't typically clueless to needs of these children.

Well said.

I have a sister with physical and mental disabilities. Give them as much “normal” as they understand it regardless of how flawed the reality.

You state that your nephew is "probably autistic." Has he been formally diagnosed with ASD? Eight is more than old enough to be diagnosed. Outcomes are generally better for ASD children the sooner they start getting interventions. Some parents prefer to get the diagnosis/interventions outside of a public school IEP process, which is fine.

The video of the elderly French catholic priest slapping the baby was widely reported. The priest was suspended, and I can assure that Catholics were outraged by it as well. There is a severe shortage of priests in the developed countries, and my best guess is that he still working at age 89 long after he should have retired.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2018 09:49AM by summer.

There does seem to be an assumption that 'autism' here refers to the extreme version. Does it? I'm probably on the spectrum MYSELF - I was given an ASD screening test earlier this year by a medical professional, and was very high scoring on it. I will be given another test next year to confirm whether the diagnosis is correct.

In the case of the boy, it sounds like he doesn't have mild autism but quite an extreme form. But that's by the by. The idea that AS sufferers have no free will is wrong - I may be able to say that from a personal standpoint (depending on what happens in my test). I think part of the problem here is that the boy is too young. ASD sufferers tend to develop social skills more slowly or not at all in some cases, but he clearly hasn't got to an age where he can articulate his feelings more fully.

He hasn't. They have had it suggested and always talk about it, but don't do anything or test for it.

Same with my brother who seems like he's on the aspergers spectrum. They've been told to try counseling and they only had him go to an LDS family services one for something like a month. My parents just think he's a weird kid.