As I date back almost to the pioneers and my little brain can remember when there were actual lessons on literature featuring writers who were (gasp) non-mormons along with actual dinners cooked in the Relief Society kitchens, I am curious as to what occurs in the hollow Relief Society rooms now.

My faithful mother says all they talk about is ministering, and if she has to sit through one more lesson about it, she’s gonna scream!

they water-down, dilute almost to the point of ghosting certain parts of 'the gospel', but the other parts / points are exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous.


Yup, that's ChurchCo, 2018



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2018 02:06AM by GNPE.

being even more oppressive and ignorant than modern times (due to things like the temple penalty rituals, the "Oath of Vengeance," the priesthood and temple ban enforced against black people), there were also aspects that were more enlightened.

Many decades ago, the Church and it's leaders were more confident. They would boast that they had nothing to fear from people asking questions and studying because, ultimately, everything would prove that the Church was true. They would promote reading and culture, they would let local wards and communities have more autonomy in fashioning programs and events that created a sense of community without the need for EVERY LITTLE THING to be some form of pledging allegiance and loyalty to the Salt Lake City Central Command Center.

I think it was with Packer, Hinckley and Oaks ...and their ilk, that it all started to almost literally become an exercise in product standardization similar to what MacDonald's does with their global fast food chain. And when you are implementing detailed global standardization, your first goal is to eliminate the risk of any non-standard behaviors or programs emerging that would compete with or undermine the centrally controlled standardized programs.

A lot of this is unquestionably right. The "golden era," limited as it was in many social and political respects, was the 1950s, 1960s, and early 1970s. Kimball, after all, was the prophet who opened the vault to historians, urged Leonard Arrington to publish accurate history, and promised Quinn that he would become an apostle. Packer and the other reactionaries were uncomfortable with that but could not reverse course until Kimball was gone.

History is complex, though, and I reckon Kimball was also a major fact in the standardization process. Up until his day there was "free agency;" missions were a matter of personal choice. But he insisted that all young men should serve, thereby eliminating the room for personal choice. More generally, I don't think he opposed the efforts of Packer (the ideological tyrant) and Hinkley (the PR expert and standardizer in chief) to "correlate" all autonomy out of the church. So he was a bureaucratic organizer while also, and somewhat incompatibly, an historiographical liberal.

All of which is my attempt to put a time frame to what you write. The church was more liberal in the 1960s, the heyday of Hugh Brown and Lowell Bennion, and transitioned into a more repressive and standardized organization from the late 1970s through the early 1990s (September Six).

The once and future cult, it was.

If Nelson thinks he can get that back, he’s crazy. TSCC just spent 40 years hollowing itself out intellectually. If a directive came down to allow anything inspirational from any source, they’d be at a loss.

But he wasn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier. He and his allies didn't think they had anything to fear from turning loose the historians.

I think Kimball really did expect the next generation of "Lamanites" to start popping out as white kids. But the "Lamanite" members generally loved him. He paid attention to them and treated them as being special. George P. Lee became a General Authority thanks to Kimball...and then fell apart after Kimball was gone.

Packer and his allies were probably horrified (hence Packer's "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater" speech) at some of the trends that accelerated under Kimball. Although it took them some time to get things under control, they did come to dominate. Kimball probably was easily manipulated when they pushed the right buttons. But a lot of the "damage" was done before they were able to implement their countermoves.

that Hinckley had effectively taken over the running of the Church while Kimball was still alive. IIRC, there was a considerable period of time when Kimball was essentially no longer functioning in any meaningful way and had four counselors. Of those four counselors, only Hinckley was energetic and active. The others were in about the same state of decrepitude as Kimball. It was basically Hinckley's church from way back then.

After Hinckley, came Benson and Hunter. But they were both basically DOA when they became prophets and Hinckley just continued to run the show until he became the "official" leader following Hunter's death. So Hinckley was for all practical purposes the Top Leader Guy for nearly a quarter of a century.

I think he viewed himself more as a gifted administrator, business manager and PR genius than as any kind of spiritual leader. Hinckley didn't do "spiritual."

Oh yes, the modern LDS church is Hinckley's creation. He ran the show, with brief interruptions, for 30 years.

I believe he presided over the demise of Mormonism. He eliminated almost all doctrine, shut down historical analysis, participated in the purges of intellectuals, and then lied on national television. He took the fun activities out of Mormonism, eliminated the programs that people found fulfilling, and reduced LDS faith to a simple routine that must be repeated ad nauseam.

Mainstreaming was a disaster. It rendered Mormonism meaningless, even painful, for average members. Even worse from his perspective, Hinckley mainstreamed the church just as Americans and Europeans were turning their backs on conventional faiths.

It is tempting (though inaccurate) to think that Hinckley set out to destroy the church since his policies so effectively produced that result.

Yes, Kimball went into Zombiehood about 1983, just before my mission call. Then the Hinkster took over like a puppet master. Ezra Taft Benson took over in 1985,and I think was basically half-senile for about about 8 months, then became a Zombie. The Hinster was there again. I can't imagine how happy the Hinkster felt, with the reins of power, the power behind the throne, propping up Benson like Bernie in "Weekend at Bernie's".

Hunter! Poor buy hadn't been awake at a weekly Temple Meeting for thirty years. HE wasn't senile, he just did't give a F****. He'd show up in his all white "Mr. Good Humor" suit at the Temple every week, faithfully raise his hand when everybody else did, and cashed his check. When he became the "Living Prophet" he had no idea what to do or say. The Hinkster was there, writing little notes for Hunter to read word-for-word in General Conference, Marriott Center at BYU, whatever. Hunter wasn't a Zombie, just a Dummy. The Hinkster used him like a ventriloquist's dummy. Hinckley worked at 47 East South Temple (Church H.Q.) LONG before Hunter ever showed up there as an Apostle. Hinckley called that "home" from the early 1930s. He ran the show.



Wally Prince Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> that Hinckley had effectively taken over the
> running of the Church while Kimball was still
> alive. IIRC, there was a considerable period of
> time when Kimball was essentially no longer
> functioning in any meaningful way and had four
> counselors. Of those four counselors, only
> Hinckley was energetic and active. The others
> were in about the same state of decrepitude as
> Kimball. It was basically Hinckley's church from
> way back then.
>
> After Hinckley, came Benson and Hunter. But they
> were both basically DOA when they became prophets
> and Hinckley just continued to run the show until
> he became the "official" leader following Hunter's
> death. So Hinckley was for all practical purposes
> the Top Leader Guy for nearly a quarter of a
> century.
>
> I think he viewed himself more as a gifted
> administrator, business manager and PR genius than
> as any kind of spiritual leader. Hinckley didn't
> do "spiritual."

Again, I agree with you.

I think Kimball was not at first manipulable, but he lost his mind and by the late 1970s the less gullible and more cynical Hinckley was in effective control.

Kimball is an important character to keep in mind. With his Lamanite and history policies, he clearly believed a lot of the Mormon doctrine. I suspect he also believed God was speaking to him--sort of a supercharged personal inspiration--and hence that he was not a charlatan. Hinckley, Packer, and some of the others were more realistic and shut the door on intellectual inquiry and historical honesty as soon as they could.

The irony (I drone on) is that some of the more liberal leaders in Mormonism sowed the seeds of their own demise. McKay was a liberal, by Mormon standards, and yet he buckled to pressure and let McConkie resume publication of Mormon Doctrine. McKay also allowed the ordination of Packer as an apostle. Similarly, Kimball accelerated the process of correlation and initiated the process of standardization, something that greatly facilitated the efforts of his reactionary successors.

McKay and Kimball made the mistake of trusting in the goodwill and integrity of their colleagues. In short, they believed their own PR.

I may be too pessimistic about today’s generation. They might take to autonomy like a fish to water. The leadership nowadays, a critical mass of which probably understands the BoM to be Bible fan fiction, may be willing to let ridiculous ideas ride. They can’t be more ridiculous than the BoM origin story.

Plus, social media goes both ways. They can monitor propagating memes and shoot down offending ones as they arise, or push along useful ones. New Mormonism could be the primordial soup of doctrinal evolution, with them playing God. They could use their spy skills to control the narrative rather than play Whack-a-mole.

Mormonism, for lack of a better word, defies orthodoxy. I don’t know if Nelson understands that. I suspect the groupthink-hobbled Q15 doesn’t. The world is still a cold place. It will welcome genuine grace with open arms. Hopefully they can turn back the era of disgrace. But pride. This crazy train has no brakes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2018 04:55AM by babyloncansuckit.

I could not help myself but to google your question, I have not been to RS in years.


https://www.lds.org/languages/eng/content/manual/come-follow-me-for-elders-quorum-and-relief-society-october-2018/schedule-for-october-december-2018


In 2018, Sunday elders quorum and Relief Society meetings follow this monthly schedule:

First Sunday:Counsel together about local responsibilities, opportunities, and challenges, and make plans to act.

Second and Third Sundays:Study recent general conference messages as chosen by presidency members or, on occasion, by the bishop or stake president.

Fourth Sunday:Discuss a special topic chosen by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. From October through December 2018, the topic is personal and family scripture study.

Fifth Sunday:Under the direction of the bishopric.

So on fast Sunday in 2 days they will learn.


"First Sunday:Counsel together about local responsibilities, opportunities, and challenges, and make plans to act."

Feed the missionaries, clean the ward building, attend the temple. Read your scriptures. Increase your fast offerings. They used to teach that we were the chosen generation I wonder if they still do that?

And I thought the lessons were boring back in the 80s and 90s. At least, back then, each lesson had some sort of point to it, that you could work with if you were teaching.

This "Counsel together about local responsibilities. . ." business sounds absolutely horrible. While some of the RS sisters in our old ward were bright enough to take even material this thin and do something interesting with it, I don't think most of them were. And they were absolutely hamstrung with fear about getting something wrong if they got too creative with the lesson.

It seems to me that the Church/Nelson is subtly eliminating Scripture study by passing it on to parents in the home - which most often doen’t get done.

And now they will use one or more of those Sundays to regurgitate the GC talks????

It’s not a wonder why the Mormon Church is spiritually half-dead. The goal of the Church is to perpetuate the Church (NOT teach about Christ) and to accentuate the “authority of its leaders”.

SO GLAD I’M OUT!!!

Fake righteousness and gossip.

++100% yes!

If we allow/agree that medicine is a science ( some say partly art), Nelson is a scientist.
Scientists want predictable if not uniform outcomes.

Nelson is obviously on an authoritarian High with no indication of changing that, even if outcome might be uncertain or not 100% guaranteed. So, comsidering the recent church history (trajectory), he's a Trail Blazer seeking to leave his name on the signs.

Appreciate the feedback.

And I so agree that I used to think years ago that it was boring!.....compared to now it was a picnic (well, perhaps that is a big stretch, but at least we did not have to listen to GC talks regurgitated over and over and there was a wee bit of autonomy that floated in the room).

I did not last long years ago as a TBM.....and, now not even that long.

My guess is that the RS sisters still work their tails off helping others. Through the years of their existence they have done most of the "Christ-work" of the MormonCult. Helping new Moms with countless dinners, helping single Moms daily make it, and what about all of the funeral gatherings made possible for families in grief. I say MANY, MANY KUDOS to all those helping handS of the Relief Society. They are the real heroes of Mormonism in my humble opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/03/2018 04:24PM by presleynfactsrock.

About 15 years ago in Colorado a stake made quilts for a Colorado women's shelter. I was very active at the time and made a quilt too. Several hundreds of beautiful quilts got donated. It was a wonderful experience for me to be part of giving to a shelter.

when does the RS meet? Is it in the 2 hour block?

Seriously, didn't it used to be on a separate day?

If M-F, between 8 & 6, very few working gals would attend, that's for sure.

Yes, both the RS and the Priesthood will meet twice a month during the Sunday block. The other two Sundays will be GD. The occasional 5th Sunday will be at the bishop's discretion.

My (few remaining) Mormon friends say that the sacrament meeting talks are all based on General Conference talks, also. Yes, these are extremely boring, created to appeal to those with a second-grade education, and repetitive. It's called "brainwashing." The brain is more vulnerable, when it is in a soporific state.

The RS lessons are based on MALE talks. When I quit the cult, the RS were studying old talks from the old polygamous prophets. Nothing applied to Christianity or even to everyday female life.

There were two lesson subjects:
1. Honoring The Priesthood
2. The temple.

I was asked to teach, and I couldn't find even one lesson in the manual for the entire year that I could teach with integrity.

using the standardized lesson manuals that featured a different prophet every year?

I was long gone by then, but a friend gave me one of the manuals and that prompted me to look up more of them. Even considering the source, I was a bit shocked at the way that they pretended in each manual like the old polygamous prophet in question had been a loving, caring family man with only one wife. The manuals really strained themselves to only referred to the first wife and children by that wife, while completely omitting any mention of the practice of polygamy.

In the Wilford Woodruff one, I remember they only showed a photo of him with the children from the one wife that they pretended had been the only wife.

I wondered if all of the plural wives and their children were told at the time that the Church in the future would treat their memory as though they were nothing more than prostitutes and bastard children to be concealed forever from public view. (I'll bet you they promised them all kinds of future blessings and glory in exchange for their obedience to the "sacred principle of polygamy.")

Those manuals seemed to be a new low in official dishonesty.

What was more ridiculous was seeing TBMs who knew better just playing along and pretending like Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, John Taylor, etc. were virtuous one-wife-at-a-time practicing monogamists.

That is like when they do the block of Joe and Emma, a Love Story crap. Hell, he wasn't even close to the first woman he was sealed to. He slipped her in between two teenagers.

An active single female "Mormon" friend of mine told me once that the reason why Mormon women want the Priesthood, is because Relief Society class is "SO Boring". I told her: "You think Priesthood class isn't????" I tried to trade places with her (this was a Young Adult Ward, so some of the Sisters in Relief Society were pretty hot), but the Bishop wouldn't let me.