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Posted by: oldmanw ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 04:49PM

I'm older in my mid-50s and have several children.

I'm not a member and never have been, but have been attending church with my wife since we got married a long time ago.

I've stood outside the temple a few times waiting for my newly married daughters to pop out.

Not usually one to care much what people think but:

I've reach a point in my life where I'm tired of Mormon. A topic for another day.

Tired may not be the right word, but best I have right now.

I've been invited to a Niece's wedding reception, not the wedding itself. My wife received a wedding invite and reception invite but got her own envelope.

Told wife, that I'm not going to any of it.

Subtly explained to me that I was being very "Petty". That the wedding isn't about me.

I told her that it really had nothing to do with my feelings, I'm not hurt by it.

But it just seems like that before I die one day, I need to let the mormons know that I disagree with this.

It seems wrong that I continue to stand outside, even at my own children's weddings, and act like it all doesn't matter.

I asked her;

No one stops and contemplates that I can't attend children's weddings unless I: Join, have a worthiness meeting, and pay 10% of money?

She said - "I don't think that anyone thinks that deeply about it."

Told her that maybe it's time everyone started thinking about it.

Petty. I suppose.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 04:54PM

I know nothing about your larger family dynamics (and I absolutely do know that every extended family is different), but on this issue, I (as a nevermo) am absolutely behind you 1,000%.

If you "can" (given the realities of your family, which you know and I do not), I would stand my ground on this and refuse the crumbs being offered.

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Posted by: Anonish ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:04PM

They have already shown they don't care about you attending, or they would not have sent two invites.

Why on earth did you let your daughters be involved in this church?

What will the outcome be between you and your wife if you don't go?

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Posted by: oldmanw ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:13PM

1. I don't know. It took me a long time to understand what was really going on at the mormon church. I wasn't raised in it and saw most mormons in my wife's family as very nice. I really thought it wasn't much different than methodists.

I really didn't start seeing a problem until my wife and a friend convinced me several years ago to start going to the men's meetings after the sacrament meeting. I now know after reading on this site and other places this site has led me to - what's really going on.

Having said that - a few of my children - both of my Sons aren't believers. But, they are struggling with this.

2. My wife is...a happy, smart person. I understand now that the church is a system that takes otherwise good people and turns them into mini robots on a number of issues. Their brains literally shut off it seems. I haven't really confronted this until recently. I think that my wife will eventually see it differently. My oldest son's feelings on the subject, have moved her emotionally, and it seems that the robot juice may be wearing off a bit.

We'll see.

In the meantime - I'm a petty petty person.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:19PM

One who stands up for their own dignity is not a petty person. How mormons treat others is shameful. Speaking out against that does not make you petty. They are the ones who insist that those who don't give up 10% if their income to the corporation aren't "worthy" to see their own children get married. How petty is that?

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:24PM

oldmanw Wrote:
> In the meantime - I'm a petty petty person.

I totally disagree with your self-assessment here.

"Standing your ground," honoring your own sense of integrity and justice, is what the greater culture of this country is all about.

As we were all taught in school: "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country." (Nathan Hale, before he was hanged to death, September 22, 1776.)

[I understand that the actual quote is not identical, but this is the version that, to my knowledge, we were all taught, in our homes and in our schools, as we grew up.]

If you are bothered by this as a matter of principle, it is the very opposite of "petty."

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 07:20PM

What is *not* "petty" is not being invited to your own child's wedding due to religious differences. You are such a bad influence that you must stand outside your own family's weddings. According to them. Meanwhile, who knows what's up with those who are deemed worthy to go in.

I remember as a (so-called) convert going to the wedding of one of the missionaries I knew on his mission up here. I met his sister outside afterwards. She had not been inside. Not knowing much about Mormon doctrine, despite having been baptized and having tried hard to study more of it, I thought she had to stay outside because she had "sinned". But she was quite young. I couldn't imagine that she was that "unworthy". Later I found out it was merely a question of her not having been endowed yet herself so she was not eligible to enter the holy temple due to that. This too separates families on wedding days. So all younger siblings don't get to see their older sibs being wed. Family church - NOT!

I thought at the time that it was just very odd that I, a relative stranger, was able to go into the temple to see the wedding whereas a blood relative was barred from entering.

It's not at all, at all, like non-mo weddings. Understatement.

To the OP, you must be a very patient man. Lucky wife. Too bad she hasn't decided to leave and just be a non-mo with you. And your kids.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2018 08:20PM by Nightingale.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:18PM

Could you just say that you're not a mormon and are tired of doing mormon standing outside while your kids get married.

No one can come back on you for not keeping the mormon rules....because you aren't mormon.

>> "Subtly explained to me that I was being very "Petty". That the wedding isn't about me."

Maybe you could subtly explain that you know it isn't about you....its about mormonism.....and you're not a you aren't going.

A mormon wouldn't wait outside a bar while you go in for a cold one. Why should you wait for them outside a temple while they do their mormon stuff?

One of my TBM sisters once asked if I was coming to one of her daughters weddings (out of state and in the temple). I said that since I was no longer a mormon and couldn't attend, I wouldn't be going all that way just to wait outside. She then said that I could babysit all the children of the mormons attending, using a voice that sounded like it was a great offer that I couldn't pass up. I chuckled a bit and declined the offer.

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Posted by: oldmanw ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:30PM

to stand outside the temple. No one will even notice I'm not there.

It's that I've taken the position that if you are going to get married in a place that requires a join a club, get a worthiness interview, and pay 10% to watch someone get married...that I'm not going to go to any of it. Wedding, reception, luncheon etc.

Just done with all of it.

Thus the pettiness.

The issue with the children - I still have a few believers - she doesn't seem to have fully realized that I'm contemplating doing the same when they get married - no temple - no nothing.

If they want to get married in a normal way so that everyone can attend - than great.

I may not be considered just petty once she really understands what I'm driving at.

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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:41PM

"I may not be considered just petty once she really understands what I'm driving at."

I hope you're right. But the conditioning is deep.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 05:27PM

I love your post. Even if you don't go all Howard Beale and start shouting out the window you should be at the point you are.

You are not being petty. Period.

Your wife is being insensitive and shallow and proving that the Mormon church is more important than you. Not just your feelings, but you.

The wife is right though. They don't think deeply about any of this or about anything other than their own self importance.

Mormons love to make it look like you are being petty to be offended thereby making being offended worse than the offense.
It's what they do.

You are going to hate yourself if you sit outside the temple one more time.

I went to one sister's wedding years ago and waited and then joined them for pictures in front of the temple. I felt like some prop, nothing more, and for good reason. I was a prop. That's all I was. I never allowed myself to be treated that way again.

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Posted by: oldmanw ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 06:00PM

At my children's weddings - a knife in the heart each time watching both come out followed by extended family and friends who were in hurry to get to home depot.

It's not that they can't do what they want.

They can get married in the mormon building and take the position that I'm invited -

I'm not trying to stop it.

Am just trying to open some eyes.

There are a number of other issues the mormons are the same way about, but this one has put a dent in me.

"You are going to hate yourself if you sit outside the temple one more time."

I will.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 06:05PM

I feel for you. Sort of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" scenario.

You did it for your children as hard as it was. That is class. But a niece? No way on earth. That is crossing the line to door-mat.

Best to you. I really hope your wife decides to think deeply and see what this really is. You deserve that.

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Posted by: not logged in today ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 06:08PM

Nah, you're not being petty.

If your niece and daughters cared about family more than cult, they could have regular weddings, all invited, then wait a year to get sealed. But the cult shames people into not doing that.

It's the pharisee cult that sets all the petty BS rules, uses those rules as weapons to enforce compliance, then judges as "unworthy" those who don't fit their unisize model.

Ironically, the cult allows "worthy" people in the temples who have no sense of integrity, honesty or decency. That's why the lockers in the changing rooms have locks on them. "Worthy" my ass.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 06:30PM

I would tell your wife that you would be happy to go if she sits outside the temple with you. Or if she just goes to the reception with you. Tell her that if she's not willing to do that she's just being petty, and that it's not about her.

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Posted by: liesarenotuseful ( )
Date: November 10, 2018 10:44AM

This is perfect, summer.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 06:55PM

Bad enough that your own daughters felt their church was more important than their father being at their wedding.

But then...two separate invitations for a husband and wife?

Make your quiet stand. If they don't get at least some feedback, they'll never actually "think deeply" about how absolutely stupid they're being.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 07:32PM

Yeah. Can't quit thinking about that separate invitation thing.

The two separate invitations is absolutely a slap in the face and tacky. As low class as you can go. Who on earth would do that to a married couple? Mormons. They still have a Caste system and always will.

He's been married to a Mormon like, forever. And he knows how it works. But they had to make sure he knew he wasn't invited to go in the temple anyway. Cuz that's what matter here. I'm starting to get really mad for and in behalf of oldmanw . . . I better go.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 07:52PM

Oh, good grief. First of all, it is not "tacky". I never even see that word except when someone is turning their nose up at something to do with weddings. Then suddenly everyone thinks they are Emily Post.

What are they supposed to do? Send one invitation inviting both people to the sealing and reception, knowing one can't go? Send one invitation and invite both to the reception only, then call the mother and tell her she is invited to the sealing too?

Neither of those options look to me like an improvement over sending two invitations. They were in a no-win situation. There was no good solution short of not getting married in a temple ceremony. That would be an excellent idea IMHO, That's probably a bridge too far for the wedding couple. They didn't have a good option. Two invitations seemed least damaging, though not by much.

FWIW, I think OP nailed it when he said maybe it is time that everyone [in the family] started thinking about it. We should not be protecting them from the consequences of their actions.

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 08:10PM

Oh good grief! Tacky is a very useful word. Who's the real Emily Post here anyway, Brother of Jerry?

Having gone through most of my life with a partner whom I could not marry, not being treated as a couple by so many of the Mormons was offensive. I used to get wedding invitations all the time from nieces and nephews to me only. We didn't want two invitations. We wanted one with both our names. It is what is done for couples.

Sorry you can't understand that.

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 09:46PM

The temple wedding policy is where he should begin. If they can delete the "penalties" and delete the "Five Points of Fellowship" and delete the "Oath of Vengeance" and delete the groin oil massage parts out of the temple rituals, changing the wedding ceremony around so that it's family friendly and includes non-members and members alike should be a no-brainer.

So easy to do. The bride and groom can still do the creepy endowment stuff without non-temple-worthy family members being involved (if that's what they really want to do). But how hard would it be to design a wedding ceremony inside the temple that can include the exchange of Mormon wedding vows and be open to non-members, inactive members, etc. and also have some of the traditional elements of normal weddings? Not hard at all. There is no doctrinal basis for the exclusion. (Plus, anyone who's examined the temple rituals knows that the secrecy aspects originated with the undercover practice of polygamy, at a time when Joseph Smith and the other plygs were publicly denying what they were secretly doing.)

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 01:06AM

It makes too much sense and would destroy the sense of high-hat "worthiness."

They WANT to make members jump through hoops so that they can go to the temple. That's the whole idea.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 10, 2018 11:27PM

Exactly. How can you take the endowment seriously if it doesn’t have the “Oath of Vengeance"? How can you have a real anointing without all the touchy feely stuff? Nobody even gets naked anymore. It’s all a sham now, so why bother with it?

The basic problem is that keeping the peace is counterproductive. OP should not support activities he thinks are wrong. Nobody in his family should either. Why shouldn’t he set the example?

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: November 08, 2018 10:24PM

I agree 100%.

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Posted by: moremany ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 02:37AM

¨I don't think that anyone thinks that deeply about it.¨

Thatś the problem: mormons don´t think [very deeply about anything]!

If they could see the big picture, they could see the small one.
However, they don´t even seem able to notice the pictures-moving.

They think they are (near, or all the way) perfect, like their crutch thinks it is.
They don´t see the other side of the [INEQUALITY] coin. They don´t see discrimination, prejudice, etc.!

They won´t understand because of their petty practice of pointing.
They are blind to the negative nature of their church cult.


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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 03:55AM

"I don't think that anyone thinks that deeply about it."

"Subtly explained to me that I was being very "Petty". That the wedding isn't about me."

My TBM daughter used the exact same arguments against me, a few hours ago, regarding a niece's temple wedding I missed.

I have been out for almost 10 years, now. I have been the "babysitter" in the temple holding pen for unworthies. It's a hot, stuffy room, with not enough seating for everyone. Unsupervised kids are screaming and running all over. A TV constantly blasts Mormon propaganda at you. It's a version of Hell! I usually take the kids out for a walk on the grounds, but in Utah, the weather can be stormy or blazing hot. Once, a kid got muddy, and his parents scolded me, and I said, "You're welcome--I babysat him for free."

It accumulates! I have finally reached the point of saying, "Enough!"

Darned right you are a "prop" for the photographs. Why have your picture taken as an attendee, when you weren't really at the ceremony? It's fake.

I have taken a stand to not be fake, for anyone. Not lie, not pretend that being treated rudely is acceptable.

I have also taken a stand that I am no longer a member of the Mormon cult; hence, I will no longer take orders from Mormons, or be coerced into obeying their petty rules.

I wanted to go to a funeral of an old Mormon neighbor, and could barely make it in time, after an important business meeting and a 3-hour drive. I had everything arranged, but had forgotten that I had to wear a skirt to the funeral, because it was being held in a Mormon chapel. I don't like to wear skirts, except for dressy dresses. I had given away all my church clothes, when I resigned. Anyway, the best option was to bring a skirt on a hanger, in the car, and take off my pants and put on the skirt, at a gas station. (I didn't want to spend time in a Mormon church bathroom.)

Then it hit me: if I wore my normal office pants (which are very nice), I would be glared at. Maybe they would even not let me in. I tried not to feel angry, and thought maybe it's like there are skirt-women and pants-women, and I was a pants-woman. That's all. Nothing deep.

But it does go deeper than that: I was going to take orders from a cult which I had paid a huge personal price to escape from!

I couldn't have worn pants to that Mormon temple wedding reception, which I had ditched out of the week before--but I did send a gift.

I had to remember not to call it "the Mormon church" or refer to them as Mormons, or myself as an ex-MORMON." If I did, a Mormon would correct me, again.

I had to remove one of my earrings, the second piercing in that ear.

When was the last time I had seen the deceased? It was the ONLY time she had ever called me, and she invited me to go to the temple with her. I told her that I had let my recommend expire, and she gave me the standard lecture about that. That was 12 years ago! Her children had grown up playing at my house, with my kids, and I would fix them snacks. I taught them in Primary. My neighbor had visited with me at the mailbox or out on the sidewalk, but I had never actually been INSIDE of her house--ever! When I brought her food when she was sick, I handed it to someone at the door.

Why subject ourselves to this torture? Being in a Mormon chapel again, listening to their "plan of salvation" again, and all the lies, always triggers PTSD flashbacks, and it's awful.

No! I wrote a nice note on the Mortuary website page, about how my neighbor and I had enjoyed our children and the neighborhood IN THE PAST--and let it go at that.

When years pass, we grow. We move on. We gain perspective. What we once tolerated, we can no longer tolerate. That's not being petty.

If we demonstrate that the cult has no power over us, it helps our children. It helps other ex-Mormons. Also, it makes us feel really, really good!!!!

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 10, 2018 11:37PM

That’s how the cult trains us. Go along to get along. But at what price? Going along with stupid begets more stupid.

The way offense actually works is if someone doesn’t like that you won’t be their doormat, it’s on them.

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Posted by: baaaaadam5 ( )
Date: November 11, 2018 03:52PM

You are making me think twice about going to a friend's reception in a Mormon chapel right no ex-minion. Can't compromise, not for anybody. His wedding is in a park thank god, neutral territory. So I at least get to see the wedding.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 07:54AM

I've seen situations where the "unworthy one" not only is expected to wait outside, they are asked to watch the children while the parents are in there.

Don't go. Just don't go. Show up at the tacky ward-house reception if you must. Give them a gift if you feel like it.

You're at the age where you get new aches and pains all the time. I think you should say you have a mystery gut pain that only coincidentally flares up when there are Mormon events. "Darn, that pain is bad today. I'm going to need to stay home but you go and have a nice time" (reaches for remote control).

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Posted by: Elyse ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 08:19AM

You could both compromise.
Your wife does not need to be inside while you are cooling your heels outside for 2 hours.

But it will probably be nice to go to the reception with your wife and just visit with family.

But I would never sit outside a temple and wait or -God forbid- babysit anyone's unruly kids there.

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Posted by: Happy_Heretic ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 08:37AM

Hey.. I am in my mid 50's and I am not... shit. Yes I am. Old... crud.

But I would agree with your wife in that the wedding is about the bride and groom. It is their day. I think that they treat you and your wife as though you are separate guests was rude.
I agree however that being left out because you a not a member of the cult is exhausting and isolating. But, you are a good man for supporting your children in their choices. Please take solace in that fact.

A mixed marriage requires a good deal of compromise and sacrifice. I, for one, would not be up to the task. You are a better man.

Your need to express and discuss how it affects you is honest and deserves some dialogue and it is good that you opened that door. Your feelings matter, and you have a right to be respected for your beliefs and convictions as you respect others.

Hats off to you man. We old fogies can still learn a thing or two about our importance in the world.


HH =)

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Posted by: a nonny mouse ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 10:42AM

I think Mormons are oblivious to how completely rude it is to ask family members to wait outside the temple so they can be in the photo afterwards. I now refuse to do this. I will attend the wedding showers, receptions, anything else, but I will never again wait outside the temple. Nope. They can take my picture at another point in the day.

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Posted by: Mother Who Knows ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 12:23PM

Roy C Biv wrote: "Maybe you could subtly explain that you know it isn't about you....its about mormonism.....and you're not a you aren't going."

This is the stand I take.

I agree that demonstrating self-respect sets a good example for your children. You can teach your Mormon children how to set boundaries, and be assertive.

Self-respect does feel very, very good.

From the bride and groom's perspective, they register for gifts, and would love to receive a nice gift from you. Send them a loving, happy message along with the gift. Join in with other parts of the occasion.

This would apply to Mormon funerals, as well. It's about Mormonism. Send flowers, or sympathy cards. Go to the viewing, and to the graveside ceremony. All of these things honor the deceased and the family--but as a non-Mormon, you are not required to sit through all that Mormon preaching.

Your wife is going to the ceremony without you, and she can go to the reception without you. She can hang with her Mormon friends and family, and might be more comfortable with all the church-talk, without you there. Be cheerful, and take her out for ice cream, or rent a special movie, when she comes home.

If you make a big deal out of it, or if you argue about it, the cult wins, yet again.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 01:44PM

They are being RUDE.

Someone above said that they had to send 2 invites because he wasn't invited to the temple wedding. NO. Usually they add a card that says they are invited to the wedding. They either could have put her name on the little card, but HE KNEW HE WASN'T INVITED to the temple. It was a given. Everyone knew. He didn't need to be told that. It was a slap in the face.

It basically said, like D&D said, they aren't a couple. Well, they "aren't" per mormon teachings.

There is no way I'd show up at that wedding. Your wife is being extremely insensitive. I agree with summer. If she won't stay outside with you, then I wouldn't go.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 04:09PM

Do what is comfortable for you.

My thoughts are Mormons are so indoctrinated to believe that what they are doing is the right thing to do because they earned this position by their performances up in heaven that they cannot easily see or accept any other way.

But change can occur to some, but it happens slowly, often at a snail's pace; amazingly it can and does happen, with us on this site examples.

Your smart wife sounds like a candidate.

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Posted by: Free Man ( )
Date: November 09, 2018 11:11PM

Some things I once believed:

Healthcare system is about health.

Public school system is about education.

Military is about defense and protecting our freedoms.

Feminism is about equality.

Marriage is about love.

Welfare is about helping the poor.

Government is about protecting our rights.

The church is about family.

But then life happened, and I saw reality.....

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Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: November 10, 2018 11:22AM

I see what you did there and it's one off the best posts I have ever seen. Zing!

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Posted by: realginrummy ( )
Date: November 10, 2018 09:38PM

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Posted by: notmonotloggedin ( )
Date: November 10, 2018 11:24PM

That statement alone speaks volumes for the level of absurdity Mormons have reached. The fact that you’ve been excluded from the weddings of your own children is beyond abhorrent.

That you’ve taken so long to arise out of your reticence to cry out about this absurd injustice is evidence of just how thoroughly the cult seeps into the subconscious of even those who aren’t Mormon. Your spouse is delusional as to just how deeply the cult has made her insensitive to common decency and of course, she is incredulous at any attempts by you to poke holes in her fantasy.

Don’t give up or in. Be brave. Take a stand.

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Posted by: lulunickels ( )
Date: November 11, 2018 01:08PM

very sad to read that. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I was always amazed at people who are so immersed in faith that they are ready to abandon their relatives.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: November 11, 2018 01:15PM

I'm going to suggest something that worked for us. I left Mormonism while married to a strong believer. We settled on a few compromises, little by little. The agreement that worked the best was my husband's suggestion: "lets agree to disagree." Simple, to the point, and let the subjects rest as they were.
It worked, very well, for the most part. I was the one that had trouble with it. If I kept quiet about my disagreements, and didn't pester him about things, and kept it light and funny, often sharing funny stories about the religion, it worked wonderfully. It was a matter of respect for our own rights to our personal beliefs. That, in my view, is what is too often missing.

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