It seems like there are GAs who don’t consider it a historical record. How are they playing that off?

That was the thing that floored me when my shelf broke. The BoM was provably false. If I knew it, did they know it too? I figured only the true Kool Aid drinkers made it to GA, so it’s plausible that they really believe the BoM origin story. But maybe not so much anymore.

I thought the Santa Clause story was more believable than the Book of Mormon. Even as a kid, that whole story of the Jaredites crossing the ocean in water tight dish shaped ships full of animals was a tall tale hard to believe. I bet those ships smelled like a barn that hadn't been mucked and then all that pissed and shit up bedding rolls around when the boats get tossed around by the ocean. With no ventilation the air could become poisonous to breath due to ammonia and CO2.

to think it is.

I guess it's possible that they rationalize it in their minds as something inspired, even if it is not what it is claimed to be. That's the same thing that they do with the Book of Abraham. They seem to acknowledge these days that Joseph Smith did not actually translate it from the funerary scrolls that JS bought with the funky mummies. But they seem to imply that it has a spiritual role to play in the plan of salvation, whatever that is.

It's hard not to conclude that the top leaders know that they are perpetrating a fraud. They know that they don't speak to angels and have meetings with Jesus in the temple. They know that Joseph Smith used a turd-sized/turd-colored rock to translate the Book of Mormon. They know that Mormon history is full of potentially embarrassing things and they were willing to buy Hoffman's forgeries in order to keep them under control and out of sight. Packer gave a whole sermon about the importance of recognizing that "some things that are true are not useful" which was essentially a public confession that he and his colleagues practice deception as a matter of policy.

The way the Book of Mormon is used these days is mostly as a talisman or sales gimmick. There are only a few basic passages in the Book of Mormon that they ever quote or preach and, in terms of substance, those passages don't really add anything. They could just as easily expound on similar concepts found in the Bible.

But they can't completely disown it or ignore it for the time being. It's too ingrained as an essential part of their origin story. And without their origin story, their claims to special authority and knowledge logically fall apart.

I think their long game is actually to ensure that the membership of the church have so little in the way of logic, knowledge and critical thinking skills that eventually they will be able to do anything they want, secure in the knowledge that the sheep won't notice or complain. But they're not there yet.

It sure isn't like it used to be. I remember when Marion G. Romney said in General Conference that the final battle happened right in New York at Hill Cumorah. It was promoted as real events with real people, etc. but that was in 1975. Nothing like that happens anymore. The prophet and apostles won't even say where the stories were supposed to have played out.

Members of the Mormon church are divided, some insisting it was in the United States while others claiming to know it was in Mesoamerica. Mormon members are making money with their tours to Book of Mormon lands. No matter what a member wants to believe, there is someone willing to take their money and promise to give them a tour to a place where it supposedly happened. But archaeology and DNA studies have been getting better and better in the academic world, each new published report further shredding the possibility that the Book of Mormon could be a true historical record.

It seems to me that true believers are falling into a nutcase category and many more just don't even talk about it. I think they recognize what it means. If the Book of Mormon isn't a historical record of real people, then Joseph Smith isn't what he claimed to be and the church isn't what they were taught to believe it is. It seems like many, many Mormons just close their eyes and try to ignore the glaringly obvious conclusion.

The status of the BOM?

I checked. It's still very boring.

Nelson was one of those that said the BOM was not historical though it contained some history. It was not a record of all the inhabitants just a few groups.

and referred to the historical accounts about the way that the peepstone was used to "translate" the Book of Mormon. This was at a time when most TBM apologists were trying to pretend that that particular "fleck of history" did not exist.

They are scientifically screwed with no evidence of ites or any DNA evidence of Jews, but so are the people that built Noah's ark and run the creation science museum with people riding dinosaurs. There will always be non-critical, emotional "thinkers" that keep the B of M alive.

All they have left is to say: "We don't know everything, but keep the faith and when you die you will see we are right." This BS mantra is constantly taught at church schools. Doubt your doubts and have faith - Its a no lose position.

I know a guy with BS and MS degrees in geology that went on an all expenses paid trip to Baja to try and find evidence of the B of M. The guy is otherwise a good geologist, but jettisons all logic when it comes to his membership with LDS Inc.

A rational mind cannot accept the BoM. So the question is, are these rational minds we are dealing with? Or, are they minds clouded by unhealthy ego?

The church is their talent. "Lording" is their gift. The church is what makes them special. Everyone wants their moment of glory and want to make it last as long as possible. Can that deep human need be at odds with the rational, the empathetic, the honorable? I think it can and is for some. I think in the case of the Gerontocracy it is for sure. Adoration by the masses is a powerful drug.

Ignorance and selfishness are not the same thing. These men and Wendy are not the kind who would settle for only fifteen minutes of fame.

Clouded with ego and a need to prove how great they are - totally agree

I think that’s it. In TSCC, the emotional mind rules even if it has to do so in a bubble. Just don’t pop the bubble.

It’s the Mormon way. They’ll tell you it’s the only way, which is nonsense. There are a million ways to be. Only a small subset of people are suited to the Mormon way of thinking, and that subset is being seriously encroached upon by scientific discoveries as well as easy access to knowledge.

I don't know about the leaders. But the lay people I know don't talk about it as much. IT is like a switch visibly happens when they speak of Book of Mormon things as if it were real. I think they are more focused now on the "spiritual" things like Alma 32, Lehi's opposition in all things, how The Book of Mormon is a template for our day, how these things could have happened only in North America.


The stories aspect of it aren't as important. Methinks this is happening with other Jesus believers and their Bible stories.

MoLeaders, at least the FP, can't back away from the BoM;

I (limited legal training) back away from use of the words 'proof' & its derivatives, strictly for courtroom use.



So, I think of the BoM as Unsupported as to its accuracy. rather than provably false.

IOW, sorta like Quakers on the Moon:
just because we haven't found them doesn't mean they don't exist...

The BoM is still boring and irrelevant to .06640106% of the world population.

5,000,000 active members divided into 7.53 Billion people.

ummmmmmmm it is still a (epic) POS, in every way ! .....just like it always was!

It is only veritable, for WHATEVER reason, among real MORmONS, and that crowd is dwindling rather quickly, as opposed to when it was actually growing, but those days are OVER!!!

The following video clip as produced by LD$ Inc as a PR declaration, where Ballard is the face of LD$ inc so that he is speaking for all of LD$ Inc executive leadership, is a de facto admission that the Book of MORmON has NO real substance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AQTr9oB8lw

smirkorama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ummmmmm it is still a(n) (epic) POS, in every way! ...just like it always was!

This oft-posted study deserves linking again re the "epic POS" called BoM.

The authors begin by opining that young Joe likely read "The Late War" and was prompted to do his own expanded version.

I reckon, however, that it was likes of Rigon, Pratt and Oliver who conspired to perform the long and sloppy literary pilferage.

The lads lifted prodigious amounts of stuff from many other works.

This site totally exposes that stolen and boring book for what it is.

wordtree.org/thelatewar

They can’t frame it as a pious fraud because Joseph (and Brigham) were anything but pious. They were all about the power. They made and destroyed lots of enemies. It didn’t matter who got in the way. Nancy Rigdon, gone. Even today TSCC claims to sustain the law of the land while at the same time holding up polygamy as the heavenly ideal. “We’d practice it, but you know, laws and stuff.”

As other people have pointed out, they have to keep the BoM because it is their link to the realm of the miraculous and the intervention of God into our mortal realm. They need a link of some sort to justify their claims of divine authorization for everything else they do.

Is polyg legal anywhere the church has stakes/wards?

Polygamy is legal under Islamic law, which also forbids conversion under penalty of death. So restricting the church to countries like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, UAE, qatar, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Iraq, and Iran would be a two-fer.

Mormons now make the distinction between "true" and
"historical." Many scholarly types recognize that the Book of
Mormon is not historical--the civilizations described in the
book didn't really exist. But they consider it "true scripture"
that is inspired of God. In that scenario Joseph Smith is an
inspired author who puts a lot of "spiritual truths" into the
book that he channeled from God. However they also recognize
many 19th century ideas.

This "true scripture" but not historical used to not be allowed.
There was at least one professor fired from BYU for holding that
viewpoint--not teaching it to BYU students, but simply having
that opinion himself.

Now with the historical problems with the BOM many "faithful
Mormons" are accepting that it's not historical and are flocking
to the "true scripture/inspired fiction" viewpoint. The Church
will never officially promote this viewpoint but they are now
much more accepting of members who have that viewpoint. There
certainly may be some among the GAs.

Eventually I'd imagine that the "inspired fiction" viewpoint
will be openly accepted by the Church and people bringing up
stirring defenses of the historical viewpoint by previous
prophets will be a small bone of contention. Just another
example of how yesterday's Mormonism becomes today's anti-
Mormonism.