I will occasionally have lunch with my son, and we have a beer. My tbm wife is so against drinking that we can't be honest, she is of the mindset that drinking will cause alcoholism. She has never been around social drinking much, but she sees people that drink without morals.

I am done lying to her. My two sons that drink socially are sick of lying to her, to save her being hurt. I have decided to either not drink so that I am not feeling dishonest, or I'm finally going to tell her that we occasionally have a drink with dinner. So how much of a cult is Mormonism? This is such a stupid dilemma that shouldn't even be an issue.

I know her argument when I tell her that I have a beer occasionally. "Is that beer more important than your marriage?" As a spouse, I shouldn't have to even make that choice. I'm not sure of how to answer without being a smartass, but I know how she thinks.

I might add that I don't go to church with her anymore, I drink coffee every morning, and she, with time, doesn't say anything about it anymore. Our marriage has been fine with my gradual changes. For some reason alcohol is so different to her. It seems like the straw that could break the camel's back, but at this point I am ready to live honest, and my son's are too. We all hate lying.

So how is the best way to show that drinking is a normal adult activity when done responsibly? How can you undo Mormon brainwashing? It's about to get ugly, but it needs to be done.

Did I mention that I really hate Mormonism, I mean Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saintism?

...well, you might tell her of Joe's involvement with drinking; Carthage jail incident. Or maybe the Kirtland Temple dedication, where they drank wine until delusional, or what about the various breweries in SLC under BY....plenty to discuss there and more.

My 'short' response:

Mormons are wrapped around "obedience" even though it's often cafeteria style.

I've had mormon gf's who would *__* me all day thru saturday night & then take the sacrament sunday morning while refusing coffee at IHOP after church...

Be true to Yourself AND to family/wife!! Chances are that she's worth your love...

I would give her the opportunity to lay out any current complaints about you and your sons. Make sure you go into this in detail with her. Then tell her that you (and your sons) have the occasional drink when you go out and have been doing so for X amount of time. When she starts to complain, tell her that she doesn't get a do-over; You already gave her ample opportunity to complain about anything she's unhappy about in terms of your habits, treatment of her, etc.

I suppose that you know that she might walk out over this and have made your peace with it. If this happens just tell her that if she's the unhappy party, she's the one that goes. She has no right to deny you your bed, your home, etc. until the lawyers have had their say.

I come from parents who believe one drink and you are an alcoholic. My grandmother used to tell us stories over and over of a guy who drank and then died in the snow and left his wife a widow and children orphans. Of course she fleshed the story out a bit but it was a clear warning to us kids.

Like you, coffee was first. My mother saw the coffee maker and asked, "Do you use coffee" the same way you would ask if you used heroin. Amusing.

I used to hide the fact that I liked a glass of wine. What I finally did when they came to stay was leave the alcohol on the tray on the counter. Went to put it away one time and thought, "ef that,' and left it out. I wouldn't drink in front of them but I wanted it to be obvious that I did. Not that drinking was important but that honesty was-- like you are feeling. We are grown-ups and I couldn't feel like one unless I was just me no matter what.

There is no way you can deliver the news that will go down well, but the least painful way I can think of to rip the band aid off is to say when the time feels right, "You know, Honey, from time to time I'm going to have a beer with friends or a glass of wine--like much of the rest of the world. I know it bothers you, but nothing is going to change and I have to be what I want to be and not what someone else wants me to be. A beer is not mutually exclusive with love, caring, and me wanting you to be who you want to be."


The last line is meant to pre-empt the 'beer vs marriage' phony choice.

If it goes further, just say it is as difficult if not more for you to have her invested in a church that prizes obedience to said church over openly embracing your family. A beer now and then pales in comparison to that. This could also open up a discussion about how NOT family oriented the Mormon church is.

There is something very funny, and telling, about "Saintism." Good one.

From Joseph Smith's diary of June 1, 1844, reprinted in the Millennial Star Vol. 23 p. 720:

"…Then went to John P. Greene's, and paid him and another brother $200. Drank a glass of beer at Moessers. Called at William Clayton's…"

https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/MStar/id/22187/rec/23

[digital p. 541 of 631]

some LDS 'tbms' are OK with reasonable compromises, some are not; it would be to your benefit if your DW is. find out which she is, pronto!!!

My uncle always served alcohol at family parties. Eventually, he found religion and stopped doing so. He became a SP. My dad drank coffee all his life. His parents did, too. His father chewed tobacco (a habit he picked up in WWI) and I found out a few years before my dad died that he also chewed tobacco and had for years.

I asked my dad before he died if my mother had ever bugged him about drinking and he said, "No. She never said a thing." I would have a hard time believing that except I completely trust my dad.

I was one of those who thought one drink meant an alcoholic at many points in my life. Now I'm oddly the one who has a drink now and then. No big deal. Yet those of my family who haven't officially left drink to excess and I mean excess. My therapist says my niece and nephews drink to excess and smoke to stick it to their mormon mother who has their kids check up on them. My little sister I'm convinced has tipped over the edge into alcoholic, although she still holds a job and has held that same job for 28 years, but lately, she has alienated everyone and finally me because of things she has said to us while drinking.

I think the most important thing is honesty. At the same time, she goes to church. I consider that addictive.

"Is that beer more important than your marriage?" That's ridiculous. Would your wife divorce you just because you drink beer? Would she dis-own her sons because they drink?

Your Mormon wife is afraid of the Mormon threats! The Mormons have threatened her with being alone in the hereafter! The Mormons have threatened that she and you and your drinking sons will all "walk past each other as strangers" in the afterlife. In her mind, all that's standing between her having a "forever family" is YOU and your beer-drinking, anti-Mormon rebellion. You already know this, but it is so crazy and bizarre, that you need to remind yourself that your wife is truly delusional.

My advice would be to work around her delusions, if you love her. It's like she's a dear, but she's handicapped. Live around the adamant boulder of Mormonism that blocks your path to everywhere and everything--most of us have had to do that. You do have choices, and I would advise you to take the easiest, simplest path. You are lucky that she is adjusting to your drinking coffee and not attending church. Like you say, "gradual changes."

It would be far, far easier for you to give up an occasional glass of beer, than for her to be awakened from her lifetime (hereditary) delusion of Mormon saintism.

I also like the term, "saintism."

Mine did....
So it DOES happen

more, ('sorry'):

I agree with MWKnows above;

Mormons often 'think' that what GAs & other leaders tell them is more important than common sense, more important than having love & healthy relationships at home.

the Mormons, if nothing else, are masters are indoctrination /intimidation, even if messages contradict each other (especially family/church!).

Haha! Now you know how Joseph Smith felt with Emma ragging on him about his drinking. No Joseph. You and Porter Rockwell aren't going to open a bar in our home! Why do you hang out with that guy? He gives me the creeps!

And you can reply, "I'm not the one threatening to break up a marriage over a drink."

When I was TBM, I was alcohol-phobic too. You’re not going to change her mind. You can negotiate what “moderation” means and then agree on a limit. Beer with food is great. She should try it, but you know, Jesus. He’s more of a wine guy.

My now ex-wife was so TBM that she told me flatout, “If you ever bring alcohol into our house, our marriage is over.”

I didn’t.... but our marriage still came to an abrupt end.
Mormons are psychos. My argument back (in hindsight) should have been: Is alcohol more important than our marriage?
See...the argument works both ways. Her answer would likely have been yes. But if it’s true for her, why can’t it be true for you?

gettinreal Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Mormons are psychos.

This. Always.

Don't forget, you get to determine what your marriage & family is 'worth to you' just as much as your wife does.

Peace.

Did you write this, or did I write this? I guess you did. Weird.

Seems to me she is the aggressor in this situation.

I have a 'dry' alcoholic bother who goes to his meetings without fail every single day (as a good reminder of what his life was like when he drank exclusively).

A couple weeks ago, I asked him what was safer to use--alcohol, or tranquilizers to calm one's self down. He paused a few moments (as if stunned by the obvious-to-him answer) before answering. (No!)

Interesting to add at this point: He always was a man that didn't talk much (if not necessary). As a result, he has been respected at his meetings for being somewhat silent--as his silence has been taken by his co-dependents as being so because he likely killed a man--but, being 'cool'--felt no need to brag about this in his sobriety meetings.

He is grey headed now--and most "active" alcoholics are long dead before age hits them.

The Blue Book (as it appears), was the first help available in helping drunks help themselves. It is not allowed to be sold. I noticed one once in a thrift store, and told them they could not sell it--just give it free for anyone interested in it.

Same in libraries--they do not have to 'check them out', just take one.

It wasn't until I cleared my head of the TBM fog that I realized that DH had probably been drinking here and there for years.

At that point I wasn't upset about the drinking, I was upset about the deception.

I've heard some people say to tell her you're going to be having occasional alcohol as if you haven't been already. That's one option.

I've heard other people say to tell her, look, it's no big deal because I've already had a little alcohol here and there and the sky hasn't fallen.


Saying nothing is always an option, or stopping any alcohol consumption altogether.

I'm just thinking that the issue here is trust as well as control.

It's a hard place you're in.

some personality types will 'smell bait' when they have their way on one thing, they'll find another.

sad, but true.


'mission creep'

seems to fit with the Mormon need to 'be perfect', some like a dog chasing its tail, It Never Ends...

First off, threatening divorce to force compliance with her demands is evil. But then, that is what marriage is for, right?

On the other hand, why do you find it necessary to drink? Where did you get that idea? The stuff tastes bad, is bad for your health (alcohol is a toxin), and is expensive, and can make you stupid.

Turns out that alcohol is a cult, just like religion. I assume you feel pressure to conform and drink alcohol. The idea of social drinking means you must drink to be accepted.

So you and your wife actually have much in common. You fear rejection by drinking friends, and she fears rejection by church friends. Your drinking threatens her status at church should members notice.

You might try doing something original.

danr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> I know her argument when I tell her that I have a
> beer occasionally. "Is that beer more important
> than your marriage?" As a spouse, I shouldn't have
> to even make that choice. I'm not sure of how to
> answer without being a smartass, but I know how
> she thinks.

What’s interesting about your spouse’s question is that she has already answered for herself, in the affirmative. She has made a beer with nachos at lunch more important than your marriage.

Inability to distinguish between trival and important things is a sign of immaturity. My father used to play the "are you ready to get divorced" card over trival things many times when I grew up. It appeared that this was a strategy to always get what he wanted. It completely undermined his marriage, and it was just a question of time before they finally divorced.

What you tell her depends on whether it's a "deal breaker" or not. If knowing you have alcohol from time to time is going to ruin your marriage, you have to make a decision. Don't drink, lie to her or tell her the truth and wait for the consequences. No need to bring it up, however. There is the "lie of omission" which, apparently you are no longer comfortable with. If any alcohol is a major issue, then you have a dilemma.

I started by ordering an iced tea with supper one night, when we were eating at a restaurant. DH knew that I was disillusioned with church (and would later go on to resign.) He didn't have any problem with the iced tea.

We both come from homes where one parent or the other was a terrible alcoholic, so we are all too familiar with the signs of alcoholism. I learned from experimentation in college that I can drink without getting drunk, so now and then I will order a Margarita or a glass of wine with dinner. No big deal.

He is OK with it.

My wife is generally OK with my drinking, though she monitors how much I drink and will frequently ask whether I'm good to drive after only one drink. She will occasionally ask whether she should be concerned that I'm an alcoholic. She and a missionary once challenged me to go two weeks without alcohol. I went two months and ended my ride on the wagon by opening a case of beer that I had saved specifically for one of the missionary's visits. "Here, this is my first beer in two months. I don't need beer, but I like it and am going to enjoy one right here, right now."

My wife's Mormon family and friends also know that I drink, and none have ever given me grief about it. We were feeding the missionaries last night, and one asked what type of beer I was drinking during dinner. That led to a discussion about differ styles of beer, their histories, and how they are brewed.

The acceptance may simply be unique to the "mission field" (Minnesota, in my case), or the fact that I'm not a fall-down drunk and will return any stink-eye I get tenfold.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2018 02:47PM by GregS.

"Is that beer more important than your marriage?"

This is a no win question. My kids asked me something along these lines except with pot which I like (hope this doesn't get deleted.)

My reply was if your mother doesn't want to be married to me because of something I like to do in moderation which hurts no one then we need to get divorced.

They replied that it obviously might hurt her that I use it. I told them that I don't expect your mother to be a completely different person for me and expect the same from her. We can divorce anytime one of us is hurt too badly by the behaviors of the other spouse. I said you going to church and her going to church hurts me.