I have written a post that is too long to post here. There seems to be a 5000 or so word limit on this board, and the essay is about 15000 words long.
I posted a link to it here once before, but I have since made some large revisions.
I try to make the case that even if God exists, even if morality is real, there is still no such thing as sin.

Please enjoy.

https://unexaminedfaith.blogspot.com/2018/08/zeuss-thunderbolt-euthyphros-dilemma.html

You have obviously thought this subject through, your presentation is very reader friendly, and much of what you say in this article could be the starting point for a large number of discussions in non-Mormon/non-Christian venues.

My personal background is different from most everyone else on this board (I am nevermo), but as I read your words I was almost immediately aware that taking your post, point-by-point, would be excellent topic ideas for, potentially, many discussions in groups and classes.

From my nevermo perspective, you have most effectively pointed out discussion points of departure from Mormonism, and from Christian thought more generally, which could be intensely interesting to explore.

[I am printing this off and keeping it, because if, in the future, I were ever to lead shiurim--kind of informal, free-wheeling, largely intellectual, usually humorous, discussion groups of Jews--your article is where I will look first for topic ideas! :) ]

Very interesting....and very well done, srichardbellrock.

Thanks for the kind words Tevai.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I appreciate your comments. I don’t have much to say regarding your comments, except to point out that the reduction in my piece is not linked at all to an eliminative materialism. And while much of want to say has to do with morality, I made a point to differentiate morality from the question of sin. And one final thing, it’s to pick a subject to get into a debate here, but I completely reject the notion that you can derive morality from nature.

Thanks for pointing out the glaring problems with the Mormon obedience-based morality. Shit gets crazy real fast when the shelf collapses. Maybe Divine Command Theory was a better fit to civilization before the Information Age. The Divine Monarch was a natural model for God, in that time.

I’m not sure that will stick. The ultra conservative religions are trying hard to keep that model alive, but the world is moving on so ideas of God will change. Buddhist and Hindu ideas are increasingly popular in the West. There are schools of thought that have God on the inside, not the outside. No divine command theory there.

Speaking of the West, reductionist materialism hasn’t so much achieved victory as declared it. That puts it in the same boat as religions that claim knowledge of God so that no further seeking is necessary.

Nature may be the ultimate guide to sin. Plants and animals are pretty gangster. It may be that “sin” is a synthetic thing that enables civilization. It might not exist, but it’s practical. Like Santa’s threats of a lump of coal. Since the 20th Century we’ve had the block universe of Einstein, which calls into question the reality of free will. Can you have sin without free will? Maybe not, but if you drink a bottle of booze and puke your guts out, you might rethink that after the first hurl.

Any change in the meaning of sin changes the game. For example, you could take Albert North Whitehead’s notion that the future is something that pulls on being. There are many possible futures, but one optimal one. To stray away from that is to sin, which could mean all sorts of things. What if obedience is keeping you from your best possible future? Then that is the sin.

"reductionist materialism hasn’t so much achieved victory as declared it"


Can I get an amen? This seems to be the analysis paralysis solution. Can I simplify the discussion without saying anything negative about a clearly well thought out post?


Sin is inseparable from a salvation based god. It is defined as violation of gods will, law, word. or what ever word you choose.

Using the word sin as interchangeable with immoral, wrong, or evil is disingenuous.

Very astute comments. Thank you.