From what I understand is the church can afford to build these expensive temples and other infrastructure because it did very well in commercial real estate since the 1950's. The church has a history of being insolvent from the Kirtland days. If bought land in Nauvoo on credit. It was broke at the turn of the century. It had a lot of debt in 1959 and probably the guy that saved the church financially was N Eldon Tanner. A real estate expert. Add in the biggest real estate boom in modern history caused by the post war baby boom. Everything was needed from new stores, new offices, and new homes. The church did well. Now it has money.

Now the problem with the church is Christianity is dying in the west. First in Europe and now in North America. Currently 100 Christian church's disappear a day in the US. The LDS church hasn't seen any growth for a decade. Like a big corporation the church has had it's analysts go and see what the problem is. The report is the church is not with the times. It's become old and stale. The solution more sappy corporate type PR. Having a bigger social media presence and such. The problem is the church itself. It's too controlling and it's based on doctrine that can be easily proven false. The church is trying to thrive on the internet which also shows what a fraud the church is.

The church has no chance in hell of growing in this environment and the old men running it are too addicted to having a lot of control. Also can the church survive a big real estate crash? The world is in a real estate bubble and that is a big part of where the church is invested in. It may not have deep pockets or as deep in the future. What we are seeing is a very flawed organization acknowledge it has problems but it's old and dated leadership refuses to change even though they give it a lot of lip service.

The LDS Church is the Sears of religion and will go the way of Sears. We already are seeing the empty buildings that once were full. Just like Sears. Sears was the go to mail order company over a century ago. You even could order houses from Sears. It would have made sense to become the premier internet mail order company. Sear's leadership missed that opportunity completely. Now they are almost dead. Something new came in and replaced them called Amazon. The LDS Church will be replaced. Utah is becoming a different place than it used to be. The church no longer wields the power it once did even there.

I like your lay of the land. Or would that be Land Holdings?

Once Amazon adds "church" to their offerings with free shipping and a list of recommendations of what other people who bought "church" also bought, the hastening of the end for Mormons is going to be faster than a rapture.

their 'hands off' posture on significant problems caused the black/white paradigm are better known now.

Those people are not smart, just pampered and somewhat lucky.

They really made their money by turning the welfare farms into housing developments in Utah and Arizona. Not many welfare farms left now. Here they have a cannery.

Historischer Wrote:
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> Those people are not smart, just pampered and
> somewhat lucky.
>
> They really made their money by turning the
> welfare farms into housing developments in Utah
> and Arizona. Not many welfare farms left now. Here
> they have a cannery.

They really aren't that smart. The post World War II baby boom is what grew the church investments over the past half century. That's over and the church has been spending money like it never did before. People like to liken the temples to McDonald's franchises. Sure McDonald's owns the real estate and they get rent from the franchise owners. McDonald's makes their money from rent. Temples are not a franchise. The are corporate owned. They generate tithing revenue but no other kind of revenue. Sure the land they sit on is worth money but you have a building sitting on it that nobody wants to buy or has any use for. Temples are a waste of money and that mall in downtown Salt Lake was so expensive to build they aren't going to see a return on that either. That mall was just about controlling the property around the Salt Lake Temple. The church can't move it's headquarters and it's now in a Democrat controlled city. Metropolitan Salt Lake is not Republican or conservative. I think the church is spending what it's making on real estate that won't generate a return. Not smart.

Rubicon Wrote:
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> I think the church is
> spending what it's making on real estate that
> won't generate a return. Not smart.

What do you do with money when you don't want to help people but have so much money you need to get rid of some of it?

Fairly obvious that LDS Corp has the problem of a successful contraband business.

It’s an IRL Ozark. You need financial secrecy to do money laundering.

Idaho will probably be the last bastion to die out. These religious people here are stubborn as hell. Sears did go out of business here a couple years ago so nothing is impossible.

Curious analogy Sears:Religion

GNPE Wrote:
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> Curious analogy Sears:Religion

Haha but not totally too off the point of each other. I could definitely connect sears with tcss. Walking into a white celestial temple room, walking into sears. Buy your garments at the door at sears.

Funny you should mention Idaho and Sears going out of buisness. Just yesterday I was in Burley Idaho and did a double take when I seen a Sears store that was open and a big sign in their window that said, "yes, we are open". I too had thought that Sears had gone the way of the buffalo, but apparently there is still one in Burley with it's doors open, and on a Sunday!

If you get back to Burley sometime, go into that Sears and ask if it is a franchise of Sears. I've heard or read that Sears has been franchising their name and/or products. Also, I've noticed Craftsman Tools are being sold in Loew's and other home improvement stores.

This was a very interesting post, thank you.

What I saw in one year in the church:

-when I started, 4 missionaries and 2 senior elders in this ward;
--now, 2 missionaries, no seniors (they were 'centralized')

-last Christmas, 1 Fireside, 2 Ward Christmas Parties
--this Christmas, 1 Fireside at the Stake 20 miles away, no ward parties

-during the year, 6 converts baptized
-Only 1 convert lasted the year, now quit (me)
--all the others came a short time then left

So the 'shrinkage' has been obvious even to me, a newcomer

I'm sure the Bean Counters are closely watching 6 & 12 month retention numbers. Also, when a new convert marries or moves or some other life-change, I'm sure they lose many.

We've known for a long time that the missionary 'effort' is mostly about cementing the missionary / missionaries to ChurchCo; live converts are almost an unexpected 'bonus'

I'm guessing that as the general populace of mormons continues to dwindle, and what was once a steady stream of money flowing in, that the great and mighty mormon church will slowly morph into an elite club that is only open to those who can afford to pay pay and pay some more.

There won't be anymore chapels, meeting halls, and all of the things we currently associate with mormons. The temple will become the halls where the elite are treated to the desires of their hearts and lavishly pampered according to the "donations" they make.

Their slogan will be: "You want to be a part of us? How much money do you have?" It would be way simpler to manage a hundred temples than thousands of aging chapels and "millions" of lowly members who have way too many questions. The talk about gawds will go away too, and the need to explain or justify anything to anyone.

The Christianity that has left Christ deserves to die. It’s like a vampire exposed to the light of day. Today’s mega churches and most flavors of Christianity preach the same feel-good mush, prosperity doctrine, and browbeating nonsense.

God is not dead. We are only being treated to the spectacle of a vampire turning to dust in the light of a new day. May the real Christ please stand up?

The church could save itself by returning to Christ. But it won’t. No way, no how. Every time it opens its mouth, it reiterates its hopelessness.

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
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> The Christianity that has left Christ deserves to
> die.

Jesus did so why not Christianity?

> The church could save itself by returning to
> Christ.

It never knew him.

This is a great topic!

I was thinking about all the men that desire to climb the LDS Corp ladder. Many of them are willing to out do each other to be noticed. Others are hustlers, while all of them are brown nosing to get recognized. My point is that some of them make it into the Q-70. Then they stay a relatively short time, maybe 5 years then they receive the "emeritus staus" and disappear.

Now some of you will cite health and family reasons for being retired. And some of us hope that these church leaders had their testimonies crack and left the church (I actually think most of them don't really care about the spiritual falsehoods and church history problems. I think they all have their 2nd annointings by this point. They stay for the $$$ and the perks).

I offer the notion that some of these Q-70 can't stand to be dictated by rigid, constricting church policy that runs the church bureaucracy from day-to-day. If you think about, these men got where they are by trying to be problem solvers. They certainly didn't climb up by following "the book." Yet, that is exactly what happens. They are told to "follow the church handbook". All of their duties are clearly outlined. Just do your job and don't rock the boat. I actually believe that there are people in their very own leadership that could save the church, but the crusty top doesn't want to hear about it. I think this leads to some of them asking to be released.

The Mormon church is narcissistic.
Which is increasingly extremely damaging to the membership.

The smart people leave .