...that my youngest child (30, with two kids of his own) says these sorts of things:

1. Fossils were scattered around the globe by God to confuse us and test our faith in the actual story about the earth's beginnings.

2. Negative news stories about Joseph Smith, found in newspapers and other media outlets of the day, must have been planted by people in this generation so Joseph looks bad even though he wasn't.

3. He would take a bullet for the prophet and be glad for the opportunity. He truly means that.

4. We weren't good parents in some ways because we didn't provide him with what he needed (FHE, etc.)

And on and on. We were active Mormons, but I couldn't bring myself to really believe it all. I was scared to ask questions, but things never made any sense. The cognitive dissonance and pressure on my supposedly un-spiritual, non-discerning self nearly did me in. We never went to all our meetings and we never had FHE (I loathed it as a kid and still loathe it now). We didn't pray at home either - I wasn't about to physically force my body into a submissive posture and talk to an invisible guy about stuff he supposedly already knew.

Still, we lived the Mormon lifestyle and even lived a few feet from a ward building for many years (easy for meeting attendance, Scout and Mutual stuff, etc.). So, I kind of blame myself. He's in and won't leave, and our grandkids are being indoctrinated in every way possible every minute of their lives. It enrages me, partly, but mostly...my heart is shredded in a million pieces. I remember corresponding with Kathleen for a while privately - she said the younger generation is so tuned in tech-wise that they'll figure it out in enormous numbers. Our grands are very intelligent too, so that gives me further hope. But, they'll be hardpressed to go against their parents at any point in their lives.

Still...I hope. I hope.

I learned it too, the hard way. They're literally beyond rational thinking and reasonable discussion, which is heartbreaking. I look back and I think - did I appear that way to others too??

Cathy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2. Negative news stories about Joseph Smith, found
> in newspapers and other media outlets of the day,
> must have been planted by people in this
> generation so Joseph looks bad even though he
> wasn't.


Wait...seriously?
Even though the church's own history contains copies/quotes of those then-current stories (usually to try and refute them)?

Wow. Just...wow.

Yeah. I was floored, but...I guess I wasn't overly surprised too. He raises his arm to the square even at home when church authorities are affirmed in major meetings too. He was one of the missionaries who not only followed ALL the rules, to. the. letter., he found rules most never knew about and even compiled some of his own and followed all those to. the. letter. as well. He's hardcore, more than any other person I've ever met, and our grands, ages 4 and 3, are exposed to that environment all the time. He's now in the bishopric, but is quite disappointed (although he won't overly admit it) that he didn't make bishop before he was 30, mostly because Thomas Monson did. The older he gets and the longer it takes for him to move up the church hierarchy the more he figures he needs to try harder to show his utmost obedience and submission. He's a huge proponent of blind obedience too. I grieve.

Wow. Obviously he's not taking a very healthy approach to his religion. That's got to be distressing to you. It would be to me.

None of us can make people see things they don't wish to see. He's got in his mind that he can just try harder and he'll reach the perfection nirvana he's worked so hard for and he's owed. It will be a bad, sad day when he doesn't get the things he believes will happen for him -- or maybe he will.

About the best you can hope for is that he'll keep the lines of communication open -- if that's what you want too. He's still pretty young, mentally. He might change his point of view.

Edit to add: I don't see how any of his desires and choices are your fault. He's obviously got needs most of us don't have.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2018 07:00PM by Devoted Exmo.

It is incredibly distressing. We have struggled to deal with his wife too, for several reasons. We've upset them a number of times, due to religious and familial reasons, and our grands were removed from us almost totally. I thought I would die from a broken heart - we adore those kids. So, we walk a very fine line and have to keep a lid on things much of the time. I speak out when I'm not around them or when they can't see what I'm saying or doing, but it's stressful to juggle it. It's horrible to know that it can and, possibly, will happen again, though. We communicate and visit each other sometimes, but...it's a bit rough. The elephant in the room is gigantic.

He's definitely working toward perfection and will let NOTHING stand in the way of that. And, of course, he'll never know it's all a scam - the church has a fantastic gig going, promising endless polygamy (which he vehemently denies is included in the temple marriage ceremony, BTW), planets, and eternal life, but not being accountable when none of it can be delivered. It nearly drives me mad to see them spend so much time and money pursuing their dream life in the hereafter.

I'm sure there are many mormon parents who feel they have to keep their deeply held opinions to themselves around their children who adamantly don't believe. It's really difficult all the way around. But even if you don't respect their beliefs (and honestly I find little to respect), you can respect their right to those beliefs so long as they're breaking no laws, etc.

Perhaps you can find a way to let them know that you respect their right to believe and love them anyway. Oh, and then keep your contact to that which you can tolerate.

That's what we do. We have less than zero respect for the beliefs, but we respect their right to have them. The issue is when we can't find safe ground and the kids are removed from us. I know many people on this board experience the same thing. It's one of the many reasons I despise religion - it tears families apart (quite deliberately, with regard to the Mormon church especially).

How tragically right you are. But the kids are theirs and it's a real shame. My heart goes out to you. The only good thing is that those same kids will grow up and decide for themselves what they believe and their parents won't have a whole lot they can do about it either. But they will likely remember their grandparents love.

I hope so, more than I can say. We always try to show them a good time when they're at our house - we spend one-on-one time with them every chance possible and we expose them to more literature, music, and interesting experiences than they often get. We don't allow praying at our house, but we wait quietly when we're at their house so they can do what they do. We've made it clear - their house - their rules, our house - our rules. That has helped, but they're still wary - they think we'll undermine them even though we've told them we absolutely won't. I do a lot of family history scrapbook-wise for the grands - they'll get their albums when they're older. Hopefully they'll see that, although they spend far more time with the other grandparents (uber TBM's), we were always here waiting...waiting...waiting...and doing whatever we could for them every chance we got. Two other grands - daughters of our youngest daughter - are kept away from religion and told what a scam it all is. It is a stunning relief.

Cathy, I had in mind what I was going to write to you, in response to your initial post, and when I got down to your paragraph that begins with, "I hope so, more than I can say. We always try to show them a good time..." Bingo! There is was!

My happiest moments on RFM are when posters come up with their own solutions! It's so gratifying!

Yes, do all the positive, normal things that loving grandparents and parents do! There are so many things you can do, that I can't possibly name them all here. For starters, you have mentioned the most important things, and many of these things, they will never find within the confines of Mormonism.

Give them your unconditional love

Never try to "take away" their faith or their religion. Never undermine the kids' parents. Don't argue. Don't debate with Mormons--those numbered 4 points you brought up, illustrate how futile it can be to reason with a cult-braniwashed mind. (Does your son have a touch of Asperger's?)

Be positive, instead of negative. Built up the good things in life, such as (again No. 1) Love, honesty, kindness, good manners, learning, good health, appreciation. Children can be greater than adults, in many ways. For example, my children were never racist and sexist. Equality came naturally to them

Yes,our Mormons family members are holding all of us hostage! They are nasty people (Sorry!), who will withdraw their love, if we threaten anyone's testimony, or if they judge us to be threatening. They are brainwashed to put church ahead of family. We have to live around this ugliness--which is why we need RFM.

Still--we can "inoculate" our children, by teaching them that it is good to question. We will answer their questions. The questions that their TBM parents will not allow, we will answer discreetly, steer them to read and inquire further, and answer other questions. Dinosaurs are a good example of this. My TBM grandchildren learned in school what they were, and all the names of the dinosaurs, and we took them to the museums, etc. They were also very small, when they learned about natural science. We had pets, that we loved, and that made us laugh. We would always say, "God really has a sense of humor!" We use the word "God", but we really mean "The Universe." It doesn't matter, because the grandchildren view the world as full of wonder and beauty and exploration and questions no one really knows.

I taught my grandchildren how to (hopefully) avoid criminals, child molesters, and abusers. We taught classes in this in the California schools. You can get books and pamphlets on the subject. This teaches children to not blindly trust adult strangers who claim "authority" over them. Children obey teachers, but they are not required to do anything that doesn't "feel right." Wow--so much in Mormonism made me feel creepy inside! Why couldn't women and Blacks have the priesthood? Why couldn't I go to my siblings' temple weddings? Why couldn't I fall in love with my Atheist boyfriend? Why couldn't Mother Theresa go to the Celestial Kingdom? Even as an adult--it felt very weird and "off" to perform those death oaths in the temple.

Be an example. Your grandchildren will trust your integrity. They will respect you, that you don't pretend to pray, but just sit quietly and respectfully. Let them catch you doing good deeds for others who really need help.

Listen. Where in the Mormon cult are children ever allowed to express their individuality, their opinions, their hopes and dreams, their problems? They are constantly being given orders, or being preached at. They aren't allowed to have feelings.

Keep open communication with them. It will come naturally, without you having to pry. You don't need to know all about their church junk. I hardly ever mention religion, and that keeps it in perspective. It's a tiny speck in our abundant life! Give them honest compliments. Appreciate them for who they are. Pay attention to them. Put them first. Live in the moment, and don't dwell on death, burning, or the end of the world. Yikes! Primary actually gave my children nightmares!!!

Children respond to the light, and to goodness.

Teach them to trust their own instincts, and to follow their own heart. More and more, as they mature, they will choose their own path, instead of that straight-and-narrow path of Mormonism. It's human nature. It will help them to remember that this was the path their grandparents took.

I have great faith that our grandchildren will save themselves. I wish we could live to see it. I have seen my own children (except for the one TBM mother) break free, and together we have found more joy than we ever thought possible!

Never give up!

Beautiful post and spot-on in every way. I know Mormonism inside and out - I was Mormon for 45 years. I know what they're doing in their home and I know how kids can feel about it all. We will NEVER make them feel that way here. We try to do all the things you mention, in abundance, and we laugh a lot - we make messes, play with toys they're not allowed to have at home, admire nature, get silly, play dress-up, snuggle endlessly, and talk about, as you brought up, things like dinosaurs so it plants questions in their minds in the most subtle of ways. But we don't discuss religion, argue about it with their parents (yes, our daughter-in-law is the same way he is, perhaps even more so), or attempt to undermine them. We just show them, by example, hopefully, that people like us (read: sinful folks who have fallen away and lost sight of eternal goals and all) are really pretty nice people who enjoy life and are as authentic as we can be in a crazy world. Both of their kids are incredibly bright, which gives us hope that they'll start asking the hard questions soon. They'll be smashed down and forced to conform, of course - they need to look and act perfect pretty much at all times, especially in front of other people, so dissent won't be tolerated. Maybe, hopefully, that will backfire in a big way. Crossing my fingers...

I think you can call people on the argument that god planted fossils or changed DNA to confuse and trick his children. Ancient Mythology is full of caprious gods who used deception and trickery. Loki of the Norse gods comes to mind, and Greek and Roman gods were always out seducing silly women, but these gods were not righteous. If god deceived then he would be evil and cease to be God because he was unrighteous. God can not be perfect and deceitful. So the argument has to be false.

Why assume that God is righteous? That notion is not self-evident, nor is it obvious from a reading of the Old Testament.

Excellent point.

The notion that God is virtuous and loving is surely a projection of what people want. We want it because the alternative--the possibility that life is essentially random and short--is deeply unnerving. So there must be an afterlife.

That afterlife, however, must be of a certain sort. It must be overseen by a God that is good, predictable, and loves "us"--which usually means not humanity in general but our particular tribe. It's never logically clear why that God singles us out for unique attention, but for whatever reason we are special and s/he wants to reward us with eternal bliss.

Which brings us to one of the basic truths of human behavior: people almost always believe things that comport with their material and emotional interests. In that sense God is suspect because s/he happens to be exactly what we would want, which is a pretty heroic assumption.

It is a rare person who is courageous enough, honest enough, to question that axiom. But surely it takes a leap of faith to believe God exists and an even bigger one to think God is exactly as we would want.

God could be evil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2018 10:16PM by Lot's Wife.

Well said. Now that I really think about it, Hitchens was right in describing heaven as a "sort of divine North Korea". If he exists he owns us, dictates where we end up, and rules over us forever. Not appealing and certainly with aspects of evil. I'll pass.

It's sometimes easy to tip over into a nihilistic point of view - I struggle with that. But, it's still more authentic than buying into such a fairy tale. I guess I knew that all along, but I couldn't admit it to myself, much less to anyone else. I had hoped that my journey to an authentic life would cause our religious children to think through their choices and faith. So far it's a no go. I still hope.

You are playing the long game. It may take your children years or even decades, but the church's constant errors (or sins or crimes) are corrosive and may well induce a change in their thinking. In fact, I'd bet on it.

And when they are ready, your example and your love will still be there. God may be a reaction against nihilistic uncertainties, but meaning can be found in personal relationships and your bond to your children is secure. Over time, that matters.

That's what Kathleen told me, and I've tried very hard to keep it in mind. I know it intellectually, but my heart is shredded every time we hear about how much more time the other grandparents get with those kids because they're very religious and all. We're going to keep on doing what we do and hope it is an example of what non-believers really are.

As a kid I recall hearing about people who left the church and even went (and this was literally whispered in hushed tones) "anti". It seemed the most awful thing in the world and I figured those poor souls were cold, mean-spirited individuals who could never know true happiness. Maybe one of my life's goals, then, is to bust that stereotype - that atheists and anti-theists are soulless persons who deserve sympathy at best and serious anger at worst. I want to show the grands, and others, that life can be joyous without the structure of religion dictating our every move. By and large atheists are funny, grounded, and generous (unlike many Mormons and members of some other churches). I have lightened up on a number of issues and understand myself better than I ever did or could have before - hopefully that will count for something to the grands. It means something to me that other people might learn more about non-believers too - there is so much misinformation and distrust out there. I was one of those before, so now I work to minimize that.

I have a brother and some nieces and nephews like your grown son.

My hope is for the grand nieces and nephews.

My brother is so heavy into the indoctrination, his family has been blindfolded along with him.

I'm so sorry to hear that. It's heartbreaking, but it enrages me too - none of it is necessary and all of it is so damaging. I have to compartmentalize it all sometimes or it would eat me alive.

My brother is exactly the same as your son. He is now an Area Seventy. Most of the TBM family can hardly tolerate him he is so self righteous. He always made sure his kids were kept well away from me. My family all stands and raises their arm to the square when watching General Conference as well. We got the die-hards, Cathy. I'm fine about it, but I really feel for you. Your post put a big lump in my throat because I get it.

Another bit of hope for the grands. I would say that often an extreme parent such as your son-and I would guess his wife as well--is that the over the top behavior like theirs can drive a wedge in as well as inspire perfect obedience. The real world and real friends can have an influence as well so you never know.

The choice they are giving you is tough because you love. Tow the Mormon line or be exiled. Still, they are the parents and in our society they have all rights to do with their kids pretty much what they want.

It's a long time to wait, but things could be pretty different when the grands are gown. I hope they don't lose their chance to see how wonderful grandma is.

Me too. You're right on the money with everything you've brought up. Our son aspires to be a seventy and more, and we have no doubt it will happen. He is incredibly ambitious as far as social status, money, and church leadership is concerned, and he has the charisma, intelligence, and discipline to make it happen. Strangely, he doesn't see the problem with desperately wanting to move up the ladder in the church and having it be a supposedly inspired situation. He really is extreme, in every way, and she is too. We do just have to wait and hope, but the wait will be long and very difficult. If we step out of line at all the kids are gone again, and they do have that right. However, she doesn't have too much trouble letting me know things I don't do right, although I cannot do the same with her. I'm in a no-win situation, so...I wait. Those kids are some of the brightest lights of our lives, and I know many other posters feel the same about their grands - what a difficult thing it is to really see what's going on, but have no power to change it.

Oh, don't worry - converts nowadays don't last long because the facts are out there in black and white. They will figure it out.

I hope, more than I can say, that you're right...

Hi Cathy,

My hope is for the internet, but it will become so threatening to The Empire that it will end up on the "word of wisdom" --just to become one more thing that one must avoid for the E-ticket to Heaven.

TSCC knows the internet will bring them down. They will blame pornography--it's not naked butts that scare the church--it's naked truth.

That stunt of telling women to stay off social media for ten days was a flinch test.

Hopefully soon, Mormons will become an embarrassment, and our grands will start being influenced by their saner friends. I hope and pray, anyway.

Please hang in there. Sounds like you and I have the same son. He has a Down Syndrome little boy whom none of us apostates have seen in years. I loved that little boy so much.

I personally plan to antagonize the church at every single opportunity. I have nothing to lose.

But for those who still see their grandkids, it's very touchy. I know you need to be careful.

Take care. Love and best thoughts in the world for you.

--Kathleen

"They will blame pornography--it's not naked butts that scare the church--it's naked truth."

With that phrase and the "flinch test" bit you hit the bullseye, kathleen. Shame this is such a long slow game of darts.

Thank you, my friend. I have missed your wisdom. I'm with Done & Done - the pornography and flinch comments were spot-on.

Cathy, your son claims that God is testing the faith of people by using falsehoods and trickery.

This sounds like he is asking for a sign?

But!
>4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it...

How can he square that?

He can justify absolutely anything in his mind. He's a smart guy, so it's baffling to me why he continues to do this. He served a mission in a country with extreme poverty. He swears by blind obedience because he saw "miracles" in some members, especially one or two in which the missionaries drove out demons and brought souls to Christ, yada, yada, yada. The cherry-picking is mind-boggling - he saw people with literally nothing, and the most terrible of living conditions, but hey, the missionaries and members/potential members were blessed and all. Therefore, it's all true. *sigh*

My mom was that gung-ho as a Mormon, and look how I turned out. The other siblings are social Mormons. The next generation doesn't even rise to the Social Mormon level.

Fanaticism doesn't transmit all that well to the next generation. The fanatics are just too annoying. Think Bednar.

That's what we're counting on. The grands are extremely intelligent (yes, I'm biased, but they really are that smart too) - I can't wait for them to start asking some questions that make their parents very uncomfortable. It won't go well for them, but that will actually help in the long run too.

This post should be flagged and referenced when someone on the Board expresses the view that it is O.K. (and somehow in the best interest of the marriage, children, or family) to remain an active member of the Church after they come to know it is all BS. Your apparent weakness will follow you for generations.

So true. I still beat myself up for it. I lived in fear, as members must, because I was taught that I would not see my family or gain amazing rewards if I did not do as I was instructed. That thought terrified me like no other. (My immediate family, mind you - much of our extended family I can do without NOW, much less forever and ever and ever) I kept ramping up what I was doing and how hard I tried to believe even though it just didn't ring true, and now I'm paying for it. Our whole life was wrapped up in that stupid religion, so it seemed incomprehensible to leave it behind. The difference, though, is that I didn't have anyone to talk to, anyone to ask the hard questions, and anyone to feel safe with when really sussing out the absurdities of the doctrines that dictated my life. My children DO have that - they have me. But, they live in fear - they think they're living a wonderful life full of promise, but it is a life of fear nevertheless. It's hearbreaking.

Cathy, you did what you thought was right at the time! If I saw someone beating you up like you're beating yourself up, I'd pepper spray the bastard !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2018 04:09PM by kathleen.

Cathy, You said, "The difference, though, is that I didn't have anyone to talk to." That was me too, and most of us moms in the time we raised out kids.

So, Anonymous Today, STFU !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2018 04:08PM by kathleen.

I knew I liked you. :)

Cutting Anonymous Today into thin slices might feel therapeutic, but would give this tribe a stain too similar to Mormonism.

Find the nearest recliner and cool your heels. You're gringding of molars will haunt you after 80. Yes, soup can be pre-blended, but those flat surfaces will serve as a cutting board for further tongue mutilations and your lack of self control makes men evermore justified in continued female oppression.

Mormon Nomore, I did sit in the recliner and calm down.

But, why kick Cathy when she's down? We had no idea what kind of monster we unleashed on especially our sons. I was the worst offender. It was me who prodded my sons to go on missions.

When my son got home, he said, "If you knew where I ended up, you'd have come and gotten me." How on Earth can I EVER forgive myself for that?

I want Cathy to quit hammering herself. I want to quit hammering myself.

But, don't tell me to put the knife down. Women don't lack self control any more than men do. Men will NEVER be *justified* in continued female oppression.

The Mormon church gets ALL the blame starting with Joseph and going all the way down to Rusty. One hundred percent of the blame. The leaders have always been self serving, arrogant, power hungry and lacking in empathy.

So they make nice people question themselves because that is how it works. Doubt your doubts. Blame yourself. The Mormon church knows where all our buttons are because they installed them. And they know exactly when to push them. And Cathy's got pushed as did mine. As did Kathleen's. And a lot of others.

What was Cathy's crime? Loving her kids too much? Wanting them to have a celestial reward? Being human? Not realizing she was in a cult and therefore unable to correctly process all information? That she didn't even have all the information?


She is here with a half broken heart and still wanting to blame herself because we were all part of the "Church of Blame the Victim of Latter Day Saints." And as Exmos we have to learn better than that.

So Cathy pays the price for someone else's doing. For the Mormon leaders doing--not her own. The Mormon Cult is pernicious and the innocents of the world don't stand a chance. Having a big heart makes you easy prey for the likes of them.

I'm with Kathleen and next time, don't mistake strong convictions for a knife. They aren't the same.

Thanks, my friend. I still think I could have, maybe possibly, gotten up the courage to get out sooner, but I can't think of a safe outlet that would have aided me. I mocked the accusations that the church was a cult and couldn't believe how monstrous people were towards such a righteous organization. I want to bang my head against the wall now, but I really have learned a great deal. It's been a painful journey to get to where I am now, but it's been worth every minute. I'll never stop fighting against this corrupt and manipulative organization - it's too important. Sometimes it's in subtle ways, sometimes quite overtly, but the end goal is always the same. I can't bear the thought of others going through what we did.

We supported our sons when they served missions, fully and completely, even though things niggled at me night and day. When we were raising kids we didn't have the internet, smartphones, and other tools to find the truth easier. We had to rely on church leaders, friends, and family (who were, oftentimes, also snagged in the fabric of the cult). I just assumed (and was told) that I wasn't spiritual enough and that I needed to "ponder and pray", the dreaded and despicable phrase unleashed on thinking members who desperately needed an outlet for their concerns. I hated that phrase. Most members hate that phrase, I'm sure.

And Kathleen - ouch. "...you'd have come and gotten me". Oh boy - I'm not sure I'd be able to recover either. I'm so sorry. It's all so tragic.

First, I feel the need to apologize to Cathy (and perhaps others) but I am not exactly sure why, other than it was not my intent to hurt feelings by pouring acid on the wounds of a fellow exMo. After all, I only said what Cathy herself noted in the OP, and which she acknowledged immediately after my comments. In any event, I am sorry for any offense--to anyone.

I note further that my comment: "Your apparent weakness will follow you for generations," was not intended to single Cathy out, but to apply to anyone who fails to act consistently with the conclusion that Mormonism is false, harmful, and evil; which applies to most of us to some extent. I myself sent a son on a mission during a time when my doubts were taking root. He remains TBM today, and teaching my grandchildren the nonsense I taught him. So, I am not innocent.

My point, just to reiterate, is that in my view too much emphasis is placed upon a "let's all get along" attitude with our spouses and children, instead of just owning what we know to be true and acting accordingly. It is too easy to rationalize acquiescence to Mormonism, and continued activity, instead of facing the often extreme immediate consequences of being true to one's newfound convictions. What Cathy's point teaches us is that the comfort of avoiding harsh immediate consequences results, almost invariably, in even more extreme lasting consequences; yes, even across generations.

Finally, Done & Done's comment: "The Mormon church gets ALL the blame starting with Joseph and going all the way down to Rusty. One hundred percent of the blame." is a nice rhetorical comfort pill, but obviously false. The Church, of course, gets the blame for creating the moral dilemma in the first place. But the blame for what each of us do after discovering its falsehood is upon us. That is what moral agency is about, and why the dilemma exists at all.

So, I guess the bottom line is that I agree with Cathy. She made a mistake (as did I, and most of the rest of us) So let's not encourage those that follow us to make the same mistake by discounting the consequences of feigning belief or tolerating harmful Church policies after we discover that it is false. The rationalization that it is somehow for the sake of family harmony is a short term illusion, and doesn't cut any moral ice, whatever the adverse short term consequences might be.

O.K. I will now STFU.

Very nicely put, Anonymous Today. All of it.

Being the only non-believer as a spouse and a parent is one of the toughest positions ever to find yourself in. It was bad enough for me just being the black sheep son, so, when it comes right down to it, about all I can do is wish those with that dilemma the best and hope they make the choices that are right for them in the end--because the choices rarely feel right in the present when they are being made.

P.S. I still get where Kathleen is coming from and wanting to support Cathy. We all draw from our own experiences and some of them have been pretty traumatic. Assigning blame is a tricky business. I understand that Cathy assigned herself a bit of the blame, but I still think it's pretty damn hard to see the edge of the cliff when you are in a heavy fog.

I do think this whole thread and conversation are very valuable for anyone lurking and I hope it helps someone.

Thanks for all the comments. I bear no ill will at all. And I do agree that going the easy route causes further damage, for generations, and that we should stop tolerating the utter nonsense Mormonism is, but...those grands. Those funny, silly, gorgeous, loving grands...I feel like I would die without them in my life. So, I play the short game and hate it (and myself), but I cannot jeopardize even a moment with them. I want, so much, to put my foot down and call out the church to everyone I know, but in some cases I cannot. Just...cannot. what are we to do then?

Rhetorical question.

Cathy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I want, so
> much, to put my foot down and call out the church
> to everyone I know, but in some cases I cannot.
> Just...cannot. what are we to do then?

First, with respect to my comments and attitude about all of this, I do not mean to suggest that we need to be rude, dogmatic, outspoken, demeaning, or accusatory, in our interactions with our Mormon family members or friends.

What I meant is simply that our actions and conduct, including verbal conduct, be consistent with our beliefs. In other words, when the opportunity arises, we make our beliefs about Mormonism known, and most importantly, we refuse to participate in Mormon functions of any sort that validate Mormon doctrines or Mormon culture. However, in my view, we do not need to all be anti-Mormon crusaders. Moreover, we most certainly do not need to ostracize Mormon family members, or treat them unkindly or disrespectfully. Let the negativity come from the other side, while we just go about our business with personal integrity. That is all that is required. In my experience, when we do this, adverse consequences do occur, of course, but they are minimized, and our influence is maximized. Moreover, there is a lot of internal gratification and personal strength when we do and say what we believe is right and consistent with how we feel. Mistakes that we have made in the past can be put in the past, and not revisited every time we let our moral guard down and validate Mormonism out of some personal fear, or superficial desire to maintain family peace and harmony in the moment.

Cathy, there are zealots in every faith and outside of religious faith systems as well. I'm wondering if your son is suffering from religious scrupulosity, which is a form of OCD. Is there anyone else in your family who might have OCD?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrupulosity

I grew up Catholic, and there are definitely some extremists in the Catholic faith (even most Catholics think they are nuts.) I think the Catholic faith was were religious scrupulosity was first noted.

I don't think you did anything wrong with your son. If it didn't happen to be Mormonism, it likely would have been something else that he latched onto. Keep hope alive for his children. I think you are doing the right thing by modeling kind, loving, nonbelief for them.

I'm sure I flirt with OCD and I'm sure my son does too. It probably plays a part in all of this. But he believes - really believes, and his entire life is guided by this idiotic faith. Once, just once, I wish he, or any TBM, would ask me, "You've been on both sides. What do you know that I don't know?". It's a pipe dream, but I always hope.

I agree that religious scrupulosity is a mental illness all its own. In fact, it was a nun who pointed out to me that the church, and purported sainthood, covered up for much mental illness back in the day.

However, living in south Utah County I see the fear all around me. I have frequent conversations with local ex-Mos who are all related to, and surrounded by, TBMs. One of the things we've been talking about is the fear and anxiety that seems to be a source of the superstitious behavior that is most of Mormon "obedience." Really, trying to control God to avoid...something.

It's rather reflected, Cathy, in how you talk about your "grands." Like, it "shreds your heart" how you might be cut off from them by their parents or how the other grandparents, who are religious, see them so much more. I guess it's supposed to be self-evident this pain you anticipate, but honestly, I don't get it. What's so scary? If your son never had these kids you wouldn't know them at all. You'd live. But the thought they could be taken away from you by your son, kind of makes you seem desperate. Are you terrified that if they get on a plane they might crash? I get a sense that you feel your fear for them is what's keeping them safe. If so, this may be the same kind of thing going on in your son's mind toward TSCC, keeping himself and the extensions of himself--his family--safe. It seems to be an underlying Mormon dynamic--if one adheres, superstitiously, to this set of behaviors--God's duty-bound to serve and bless one. Kinda like a rain dance.

Superstitious behavior and deep, abiding love of family are entirely different animals. My son DID have them and we adore them. We got to Skype with them just a couple of hours ago - it lifted me up like little else does. The four-year-old girl, who is preternaturally observant, precocious, and intelligent, wanted to show me her new hippity-hop ball (what we called them when I was young). She tried to prop the phone on the floor while she bounced around, but it kept sliding down so that I got a marvelous view of their ceiling. She got the giggles, which gave me the giggles, and I felt like the luckiest Nana ever.

This in no way means I'm indulging in superstition. I did engage in it, of a sort, when I tried to be religious, but, of course, it did no good at all. As an atheist I feel my most important focus in mife is my family, and we rejoice with every new addition. That is completely separate from any faith-based behavior.