Does that mean he and his wife will automatically get the 2nd endowment?

I'll be waiting to hear the answer. My cousin's husband was just called as a mission president, too. Oh joy! Aren't we all so holy? Would love to know what the perks are completely. My aunt and uncle have to be telling themselves how wonderful they are for having this happen in their lives, although my uncle was never called to anything even as holy as he thinks he is. He ordered me back to church at one point. I don't claim him as an uncle. He just happened to marry my mom's sister.

They are going far, far away. FAR AWAY. I don't envy them.

Justin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does that mean he and his wife will automatically
> get the 2nd endowment?


My understanding is no, not necessarily.

Not sure about the 2nd anointing thing, but they get $160,000/year "stipend" to use (If I remember correctly)

And you know this how?

...blow his mind by saying "Hey, don't forget to check out Appendix B in the Mission Presidents Handbook. You are going to get "reimbursed" by the Church for all your expenses....PLUS! Gee, I wish I was you. Just don't tell the IRS or anybody...OK?".....PLEASE?"

Why would anyone report reimbursements to the IRS?

is your uncle a successful business person? that seems to be the major qualification for being called to mission president. they need someone who can sell, sell, sell.

and a great guy I have to admit. My cousin doesn't deserve him. He will be a good MP.

My uncle who found religion in his 50s became a SP. He also was a successful businessman. No other reason I see that he became SP. He certainly was NOT a people person and he couldn't give a talk that didn't put you to sleep and one of the bishops in his stake (who I worked with) asked me if he had some dementia because of the talks he delivered.

I don't know but he will get the second initiatory - LDS Corp anointing his ass crack with the swipe of their Celestial credit card.

BWAA-hahahahaha! Elder Berry!

Wow they get paid that much???

Can somebody tell me what the mission president does--he's higher than the Bishop, is he like a stake president? Do those also get paid?

I wasn't in too long so I'm a bit fuzzy on this but hearing about this salary would have been enough to make me quit!

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/0/03/Mission_Presidents_Handbook_2006.pdf

See Appendix B

The amount is not specified. Since LD$, Inc. reimburses living expenses, it likely depends on which mission you are in and thus how much it costs to live there.Living expenses defined as follows:
Living expenses include food, clothing, household supplies, family activities, dry cleaning, per-
sonal long-distance calls to family, and modest gifts (for example, Christmas, birthdays, or
anniversary).

But also notice the other things that The Corporation pays for:
-Medical expenses—including dental and eye care, but not orthodontics or elective or cos-
metic surgery—if not covered by personal health insurance
-Support for children serving full-time missions, when requested.
-One round trip for each unmarried child under age 26 to visit you in the mission if he or
she did not accompany you to the field.
-Elementary and secondary school expenses for tuition, fees, books, and materials. Reasonable
expenses for extracurricular activities and for music or dance lessons may be reimbursed.
-Undergraduate tuition at an accredited college or university that offers two- or four-year
degrees. Tuition is waived at Church-owned schools.
-Mission home.Your mission home is either owned or leased by the Church. Mission homes
are selected, furnished
-Rent (if leased), utilities, telephones, and Internet connection
-Maintenance, including gardening and repair or replacement of household items.
-One part-time housekeeper-cook (no more than a total of 20 hours per week).
-The Church provides one mission automobile assigned exclusively to the
mission president. Although a vehicle is not permanently assigned to your wife, she may use
any available mission vehicle for shopping, taking children to school, or other needs.
-Fuel, oil, maintenance, and repair expenses for mission-owned vehicles
-Travel expenses for you and your wife as you supervise the mission, including the costs of
meals and lodging.
-Medical expenses for you and your family are paid from Church funds

Sounds fair for the M.P. not receiving a salary or stipend.

Sure, if they paid taxes appropriate for their reimbursements. It would be pretty sweet if we all could have our housing, food, transportation, and other day-to-day expenses "reimbursed" without having to pay taxes on it. Of course, our country would have no money to run on in that case.

So are you saying that some entity is not paying, say...property taxes on the housing that is provided, or paying taxes for anything food related, or paying sales tax, gas tax, taxes on parts, maintenence and repairs for transportation/vehicles used by the Mission President? Really?

I'm saying that the MPs are not paying income taxes on items that are reimbursed. They are explicitly told (by the church) not to, and not to mention the reimbursements to any person or entity such as a tax advisor or the government. Again, I would just love it if my mortgage, food, transportation, etc. costs were "reimbursed" without me having to pay appropriate income taxes on those amounts of money.

My question: If the reimbursements are on the up-and-up, then why can't mission presidents talk about them with their tax advisors? Surely a CPA would know what's allowed and what isn't.

When you look at information available from the IRS, church ministers are allowed to exclude the "fair rental value" of housing from their income taxes, along with utility costs, and "reasonable business expenses." But looking at the long list of reimbursed items, would (for example) college tuition for your offspring count as a "reasonable business expense"? How about school fees or fees for music and dance lessons for your child? I seem to recall that modest gifts to family members is also an item on the list. Is giving a gift to a family member a "reasonable business expense"?

https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc417

Also, church ministers are required by the IRS to pay Social Security and Medicare taxes on the value of their reimbursements. Do MPs?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2019 11:17AM by summer.

So when you wrote, “Of course, our country would have no money to run on in that case.” you were just being misleading. Your beef was that the taxes were coming from someplace else and not the MP’s pocket…so in the end, there would be ZERO effect on our country not receiving the tax revenue. Got it.

Next, your question - “My question: If the reimbursements are on the up-and-up, then why can't mission presidents talk about them with their tax advisors? Surely a CPA would know what's allowed and what isn’t.”

Apparently either you haven’t read the M.P.’s Handbook that was linked to above, or there is a reading comprehension problem. So let’s actually see what the handbook says -

- “Funds reimbursed to you from the Church are not considered income for tax purposes.”

That seems pretty straight-forward. Only a fool would consider reimbursements to be income. Apparently though, some MP’s have declared it as such when doing their taxes causing unnecessary dealings with the IRS on both ends.

- “To avoid unnecessary tax questions, please follow these guidelines closely:”

Oh, there you have it. Apparently unnecessary tax questions have been raised in the past, so much so that the handbook addresses the issue.

- “Do not share information on funds you receive from the Church with those who help you with financial or tax matters. Any exceptions should be discussed with the Church Tax Division.

I will give you that on the surface that statement would cause a raised eyebrow about concealment and secrecy. And, any person who still has “TBM Mormon-think” tendencies, to run with and believe ANYTHING (example - believing that an angel with a sword threatening Bro. Joe) would think along those lines. For the rest of us though who have recovered and realize that even ex-mos say some outrageous things to get their point across…we dig a little deeper for the truth now.

So to get back to your question of “why can't mission presidents talk about them with their tax advisors? Surely a CPA would know.” First off, they can talk to their tax advisors. There is no temple-like covenant they make with accompanying penalties for doing so. And if you were to read in the MP’s handbook, a reason is given - “If you have any questions about the tax matters, contact the Church Tax Division, which has tax rulings and research that support the validity of not reporting as income the funds you receive as mission president. Then there is this line, which I will put in all CAPS for the “hard of understanding” folks out there - “BECAUSE MOST TAX ADVISERS ARE NOT AWARE OF THIS INFORMATION, THEIR ADVICE MAY BE INCORRECT”.

‘Nuff said.

So your argument is that the Mormon church is a trustworthy organization when it comes to financials, therefore what the church says in that regard must be true (an appeal to authority.) Add in a dollop, of "you're stupid." (Yes, I did read and comprehend the MP's handbook, thank you very much.) An appeal to authority combined with patronization does not constitute much of an argument.

Sorry, Jaxson, I don't buy what you are selling. Maybe the tax exclusions and deductions allowed for clergy are too sophisticated for the seasonal employees down at H & R Block. But I'm betting that a CPA could certainly handle it.

Plus, MPs are *not that special* when it comes to taxes. They are considered full-time clergy appointed by the Mormon church. So are Methodist clergy, Presbyterian clergy, Baptist clergy, Lutheran clergy, Jewish clergy, Buddhist clergy, etc. It is not a highly unusual situation. There are many clergy in any community of note, just as there are many people of other professions with special tax considerations. As a teacher, I have special tax considerations. This doesn't make those considerations beyond comprehension.

(From what I have read,) beyond housing, clergy are allowed to exclude or deduct reasonable expenses related to their jobs, similar to deductible expenses for a business professional. In what way is paying the college tuition for an MP's offspring a reasonable business expense? Would your average businessman be able to deduct his child's college education? Music lessons? Ballet lessons? How can that possibly be justified?

It seems very sketchy to me. But it seems that you have more faith in the honesty and trustworthiness of Mormon church authorities than I do.

Well, right off the bat you are wrong. Mission Presidents are NOT considered full-time clergy. Just like the missionaries, a Mission President is a voluntary position. And there is also no comparison to Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. clergies since those are salaried positions.

No…I do not have faith in the honesty of the mormon church. I do have faith that the IRS would be all over the church like stink on shit if things were not above board. I also believe that the church goes to all lengths to protect it’s tax exempt status. Certainly they wouldn’t risk that tax exempt status on a volunteer MP.

But if you feel there is something shady or illegal going on, contact the IRS yourself (I’m sure others have in the past). Present your proofs, arguments, and evidence. I have heard the IRS pays whistle blowers quite well when they bust a tax evader. C’mon…go ahead…give it a shot. Keep us posted on how that works out for ya.

It is not necessary for ministers/clergy to be paid a salary.

According to the IRS --

"Ministers are individuals who are duly ordained, commissioned, or licensed by a religious body constituting a church or church denomination. They are given the authority to conduct religious worship, perform sacerdotal functions, and administer ordinances and sacraments according to the prescribed tenets and practices of that religious organization. Ministers are employees if they perform services in the exercise of ministry and are subject to your will and control."

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p15a.pdf (p.11)

It seems to me that MPs meet the IRS definition of ministers. IIRC there is at least one foreign country where missionaries must be considered trained ministers under that country's law (the Mormon church uses seminary graduation for this purpose.)

But for the sake of argument, let's assume that the MPs are non-clergy volunteers. For comparison with Peace Corps volunteers, the PC volunteers' "walk-around money" is fully taxable, and their living allowance is partially taxable.

I received nearly all of the same benefits when I was in the army, plus I was paid, and got a great tuition assistance program that basically paid the entire cost of the tail end of my BS degree and the entirety of an MS degree. I even would have received an extra allowance for a wife and children if that applied.

For a family temporarily stationed away from their normal home, the above is a pretty minimal benefits list. I have a relative woking in south Asia. the whole family gets two paid trips to the US per year, plus a very nice housing allowance. Every place I ever worked for after college paid my moving expenses, medical insurance, work related travel expenses, 401K match up to a certain level, and usually free snacks at work.

Mission presidents are not getting rich being MPs. Your living expenses are well covered, but you're not going to be putting much of anything in the bank.

Mission Presidents receive no salary or stipend.

No, but they are not paying for the privilege to be there either and usually get above average living accommodations, unlike their subordinates.

So what.

The process is not set up for them to pay to be there. If it were, I have family and friends who served as MP's who would have gladly paid for the privilege to be there if asked to do so. Also, MP's serve for THREE years, unlike their subordinates who serve two. Nobody has a gun to the heads of the subordinates to go on a mission in the first place, or even remain out on a mission once they are there.

It doesn't bother you, Jaxson, and that's just fine. It bothers plenty of other people because this kind of stuff was hidden for years and the idea of "unpaid ministry" promoted.

Beyond that, and if true, the encouragement to conceal benefits from the IRS is not consistent with the LDS claim of honesty.

No gun to anyone's head, but the indoctrination, shame and pressure put on members to serve--to promote a fraud--is reprehensible. Even those that go willingly and happily are doing so because the so-called "spirit" (read: manufactured good feelings) confirmed it.

You can share your testimony this Sunday at church about the privileges of serving a mission.

TX Rancher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
<No gun to anyone's head, but the indoctrination, shame and pressure put on members to serve--to promote a fraud--is reprehensible. Even those that go willingly and happily are doing so because the so-called "spirit" (read: manufactured good feelings) confirmed it.

<You can share your testimony this Sunday at church about the privileges of serving a mission.

Oh...I have shared my testimony MANY times (although not in a church setting). My testimony of how I called the MTC Prez and a G.A. "S.O.B.'s", walked out of the MTC, and off of my mission.

Were you one of the weak "indoctrinated, shamed and pressured" missionaries to stay when you didn't want to be out there?

Don't give up on your recovery.

...yet, you defend quite affectionately and passionately mission presidents' rights to avoid what is essentially income and benefits. And their decision to "serve" this scam.

Why claim to walk away, disaffected and angry, yet argue in support of these goons? No idea.

My previously posted comments on this forum speak to my history--I owe you nothing. But I will summarize for others who don't care to use the search function that I went on a mission willingly: I was never asked nor even heard a comment from anyone about whether I'd go.

And as I've posted before, it was virtually a vacation: I stayed sane, didn't keep all the rules, learned Spanish, and never took things too seriously. I was able to deal with it and grow from the situation without falling apart like others, including you.

My son is out there now--again information posted publicly on this form--pressured to go and being further indoctrinated into this cult. He has changed, unlike I did, and as a father I can tell he is already much more different than he was before.

Please stop defending the LDS missionary program. It's growing old, even in the short time this thread has been active, and despite your claim to have stomped out of the MTC. Whatever you did back then is not supported by your defense of the missionary program now.

I work for a government and all reimbursements for mileage or expenses are on some sort of other tax thing and they do not add to my personal taxable income.

Does anybody know, who all does get paid? Do Bishops get paid? And I'm sorry, I don't know what a "SP" is, is that higher than a Bishop?

Sorry for my cluelessness. :)

SP is Stake President.

Jaxson seems to be the only one here who understands the issues.

Church tax law is its own subspecialty in accounting. One of the oddities is that it is common for churches to provide housing for their clergy, and it is common for local congregations or the mother church to own that housing.

In the corporate world, provided housing would normally be a taxable benefit. For example, if your employer provides you paid life insurance, you pay tax on the premiums. (It just looks like a little additional income on your W-2). Vacation pay is a taxable benefit. Again, it just looks like regular income on your W-2, and that vacation pay is taxed exactly like regular income.

Back in the day, when WordPerfect went big time, they flew all the employees and their families to Disneyland for a paid holiday. At the end of the year, turns out the value of the trip, which was substantial for a large family, was added to the employee's income. There were a lot of seriously pissed off employees, and several tried to sue. They lost. That is the ta code. Most benefits are taxable income. [ETA: I think the trip was genuinely meant to be a freebie, but then the corporate accountants told wordperfect you can't claim it as a business expense unless you put it on the employee W-2s. ]

So, clergy housing is a loophole, which is why MPs don't get get the value of their housing taxed as income.

BTW, the largest single tax loophole in the US tax code is employer provided health insurance. The employee is not taxed on the premium paid by the employer, even though it is a substantial financial benefit to the employee. It is a loophole so sacrosanct that most people don't even remotely think of it as a loophole. It is just the way God intended the world to be. Free snacks in the break room are also not taxable. :)

Any,MPs have a generous reimbursement deal with LDS Inc, but it is a reimbursement deal. They are not given money for tuition for their kids, for example. They are reimbursed for actual tuition payments, or get free church school tuition, but that is only a benefit if they actually send a kid to the church school. They get a bill paid. The MP does not end up with extra cash in his pocket.

So while the reimbursement coverage is pretty good, it is only reimbursement for actual expenses, and is therefor not income. If that sounds like a loophole, to some extent, it is, but it is a legal loophole. Just like your health insurance tax free benefit.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2019 01:23PM by Brother Of Jerry.

BoJ, yes, all clergy are allowed by the tax code to be provided free housing. That much is clear (even then there are restrictions. The fair market rental value of the housing can't be exorbitant to get the full exclusion.) But from what I could see, clergy are only allowed to exclude or deduct reasonable business expenses. So if a businessman takes a client out to lunch, and can deduct that, so can a clergyman who takes a parishioner out to lunch, to say, discuss the church bazaar. Ditto for cars used for church business, etc.

I didn't see anywhere online where university tuition, music lessons, dance lessons, etc. are considered to be a reasonable business expense for clergy. I think normal, everyday food provided for a family would likewise not be allowable.

The Mormon church can choose to reimburse whatever it wishes. But IMO such reimbursements may not necessarily square with the tax code.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/05/2019 05:28PM by summer.

I misread the title as " fiend".

I sure would love my employer or an org that I volunteer for to pay my rent for me for a few years!

Nice benes, but U have to be Mormon, correct?

Even if he did get a 2nd anointing, he's not supposed to tell
anyone. That's murder on a lot of people who want to brag but
they've been told not to let anyone know. I recall a guy giving
a talk in Sac. meeting and dropping broad hints that he'd had
his.

It's so secretive that they even suggest lies you can tell your
friends and family about where you are going for the weekend.

Interesting thread, thanks.

A lot of health care premiums are now subject to tax, BoJ. It is new, just started about 3 years ago.

One loophole gone.