I hate when people make a suggestion and then say "you do the math". No its your point you explain it.

The same with Mormons. It is vital for a good relationship that you never get into specifics.

I have read a lot of these great posts and I have seen that a lot of people are burdened and hurt in the process of telling their spouse and family. If you are leaving and telling your family, may I offer a suggestion...don't ever get specific.

Mormonism is an amorphous, ever changing conglomerate of feelings and contradictory concepts and quotes, it's a cult. They can "prove" anything because they only have to resort to how they feel as proof. Please do the same thing. Don't let them pin you down with- what exactly do you...or, where did you read that? You are setting yourself up for a righteous indignation slobber-fest.

You need to understand that Mormon doctrine has extensive literature and teachings both pro and against every point of their own doctrine.

Tell your family members that you just don't feel like its the right thing for you and you just know it and don't want to "bring the spirit of contention". Don't lead with I read online that...or did you know that Joseph smith...because at that point they see you as someone who has read their way out of the church. You might as well bring in a dead body into the living room and say- I can totally explain this...

Another thing that Mormons use is feelings, if it has a good feeling, it's true. Use it against them, reiterate the great things that you believe about the gospel ,like forgiveness, kindness, service, families, not using heroine, etc tell that that is what attracted you to the church and unfortunately you don't agree that the church focuses on good principles anymore, if fact they have gotten so far away from Christian principles that you rather leave than to develop bad feelings, see this magnanimous and condescending approach is right out of their book.

Tell them that you don't want to discuss specifics because you don't want to hurt their valuable testimony and hurt your relationship with them. Once you take the evil mask off, the Mormon fangs will recede. But please be good and kind in your break ups and use - it's not you, it's me line. Works much, much better, I promise.

To each his/her own.

Personally, I don't agree with the advice to "don't ever get specific." Or to worry about "...hurt their valuable testimony."
I also don't agree that "works much better."

I've always been completely honest, very specific, and entirely open about why I left with still-mormon friends/family. Some couldn't handle it. Others could. The point is, it's up to them to decide how to handle it, it's not up to me to pander to their foibles or fantasies.

But, hey, if it works for you, great. It doesn't work for everyone.

"Mormonism is an amorphous, ever changing conglomerate of feelings and contradictory concepts and quotes, it's a cult. They can "prove" anything because they only have to resort to how they feel as proof. Please do the same thing. Don't let them pin you down with- what exactly do you...or, where did you read that? You are setting yourself up for a righteous indignation slobber-fest."

COMMENT: Mormonism, like all religions, has a set of "core doctrines" that are based upon truth claims that are subject to both historical and scientific evaluation. Although "feelings" represent a basic aspect of "testimony," such feelings do not exist in a vacuum of facts and context. In short, it is worthwhile to argue facts as applied to core doctrines in an effort to undermine Mormonism.
_______________________________________________

"You need to understand that Mormon doctrine has extensive literature and teachings both pro and against every point of their own doctrine."

COMMENT: Not so! For example, that the Book of Mormon is real history is a core doctrine of Mormonism (at least for now), as is the reality of the First Vision. Both are subject to historical and scientific evaluation. Moreover, Mormon scripture is often clear and specific as to its claims, which are also subject to intellectual scrutiny. All of this represents ways to rationally undermine Mormonism, and upend testimony based solely on feelings.
___________________________________________________

"Tell your family members that you just don't feel like its the right thing for you and you just know it and don't want to "bring the spirit of contention". Don't lead with I read online that...or did you know that Joseph smith...because at that point they see you as someone who has read their way out of the church. You might as well bring in a dead body into the living room and say- I can totally explain this..."

COMMENT: If you are not specific, they will view your position as uncertain, and based upon other motives. Again, engaging is worthwhile, as long as you have done your homework.
_____________________________________________

"Another thing that Mormons use is feelings, if it has a good feeling, it's true. Use it against them, reiterate the great things that you believe about the gospel ,like forgiveness, kindness, service, families, not using heroine, etc tell that that is what attracted you to the church and unfortunately you don't agree that the church focuses on good principles anymore, if fact they have gotten so far away from Christian principles that you rather leave than to develop bad feelings, see this magnanimous and condescending approach is right out of their book."

COMMENT: So, you suggest that one stoop to their level of explanation; i.e. some vague comparison of "good Christian principles." Mormonism (like Christianity) is either true or false in its core doctrines. You do not undermine the truth of either by arguing moral "principles."
_________________________________________________

"Tell them that you don't want to discuss specifics because you don't want to hurt their valuable testimony and hurt your relationship with them. Once you take the evil mask off, the Mormon fangs will recede. But please be good and kind in your break ups and use - it's not you, it's me line. Works much, much better, I promise."

COMMENT: This is all so much nonsense in my view. What I want to accomplish is to get my loved-ones (and others) out of Mormonism, and stop one line of this generational propagation of harmful nonsense. You can only do that by "hurting their valuable testimony."

Although, I do believe in respectful disagreement when interacting with Mormon family members and friends, and do not advocate an "in your face" attitude, your conciliatory approach strikes me as lazy at best and cowardly at worst.

"...it is worthwhile to argue facts as applied to core doctrines in an effort to undermine Mormonism."

On a forum such as this one? Certainly.


In an interpersonal situation? It's generally pointless, unless the correspondent is already receptive to facts that contradict doctrine and beliefs.


Those fully psychologically enmeshed in mormonism (or any other 'ism') will never accept contravening facts, so long as the emotional investment is intact. In fact, they will likely adopt an antagonistic stance towards those who are (in essence) undermining their testimony.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2019 10:43AM by 3X.

3X Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In an interpersonal situation? It's generally
> pointless, unless the correspondent is already
> receptive to facts that contradict doctrine and
> beliefs.

Maybe. Maybe not. It's possible that people can become "receptive" by more often hearing factual arguments that contradict doctrine and beliefs.

> Those fully psychologically enmeshed in mormonism
> (or any other 'ism') will never accept
> contravening facts, so long as the emotional
> investment is intact. In fact, they will likely
> adopt an antagonistic stance towards those who are
> (in essence) undermining their testimony.

Maybe. Maybe not.
Their antagonism (or not) is their issue, not ours. Whether they adopt one or not shouldn't determine our behavior, just theirs.

I get that people are afraid of mormon adopting antagonistic behavior that can possibly do real harm to family relationships. And cause real problems. That does happen.
I simply don't think I should not be honest and open because somebody else might react poorly to honesty and openness.
You're free, of course, to decide otherwise.

As the hundreds of personal accounts on RFM over the years would seem to indicate, the most effective way to sow doubts in a TBM friend or relative is to be seen to be living a happy, full, rewarding and productive life - all without reliance on mormonism. To be sure, the process can be excruciatingly slow, and is not guaranteed to have ultimate success.

Ultimately, the commitment to a religious faith is an emotional one, potentially back-filled with rationalizations and received interpretations of facts, history, doctrine, etc.

If the intellect predominated in the formation of a mormon testimony, no one would accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, or his 'church' as, in any way, legitimate. The conundrum then becomes how to persuade a devotee to unwind an emotional, and essentially non-rational, investment in his 'church'.

"Ultimately, the commitment to a religious faith is an emotional one, potentially back-filled with rationalizations and received interpretations of facts, history, doctrine, etc."

COMMENT: As you suggest, the commitment to religious faith is often emotional, but it is always within a context of facts, history and evidence, that require interpretation. If one's commitment to the underlying facts breaks down, it is a natural part of psychology that the corresponding emotions go with it. Remember, this is precisely what happened to ALL of us exMos here on the Board, who once had a "testimony." The principle applies to others as well, even if they are more firmly entrenched, or more resistant to such facts. That is why we must be willing to civilly engage those who are open to such engagement. Your assumption that it is hopeless is a defeatist attitude and is not true.

"Your assumption that it is hopeless is a defeatist attitude and is not true."

Harumph, Henry. :)

It's all about the venue. An online forum is the perfect place for the unadorned facts to be arrayed. An observer can take them or leave them, without too much emotional baggage being involved.

An interpersonal relationship? That is quite a bit more chancey - because if you (as 'facilitator') get it wrong, you may trigger the defense mechanisms that seem endemically associated with mormon 'testimonies', causing the walls to go up, perhaps permanently.

To guide someone out of mormonism certainly requires a receptive mind (on the part of the member) and a keen appraisal of the member, adept timing, long-term patience and a deft hand, all on the part of the "guide". A major controlling circumstance is where on the outbound journey the member happens to be. Someone on the precipice of leaving might be quite receptive to baldly-presented "facts", otherwise, assuming a 'testimony' of even moderate strength, probably not, unless a fact or two is artfully dropped, completely casually.

The existence, and success, of RFM certainly affirms that a member can be extricated (or extricate himself), but it is clearly a difficult, lengthy, and emotion-laden process, often with lingering emotional issues.

I don't know that psychological enmeshment is understood anywhere near well enough to predict how best to assist a particular individual in leaving the mormon church, especially in the earliest stages when disaffection is slowly beginning to surface, but that individual realizes nothing beyond that he is unhappy, even in the face of the church and membership telling him that he has every reason to be gloriously happy.

Mormonism (and things like it) are pernicious, and it's a mystery why we humans are susceptible to it.

Perhaps neuroscience will one day shed light ...

Joking aside, I agree and would like to add some specific thoughts.

As people are individual, their emergence--or not--from a cultic mindset will be individual, a combination of internal and external factors. These may involve their personal awareness that facts don't support belief, conflict with other LDS individuals, problems with the COB, exposure to another belief system. Some people may let their shelf collapse ("maybe"), others will cut 2x4s to reinforce the shelf so it doesn't ("maybe not").

For too long a time -- decades -- I tried to come up with arguments, facts, and Bible verses which would somehow convince my family that Christian Science was wrong. I never did. I apply, in retrospect, 3X's statement, "Those fully psychologically enmeshed in mormonism (or any other 'ism') will never accept contravening facts, so long as the emotional investment is intact." Although more absolute than I care for ("never say never"), I focus on the "b" -part: "...so long as the emotional investment is intact." That emotional investment is usually the real stronghold.

Dealing with people in a cult calls for a holistic approach, addressing the factors both internal (e.g. "emotional investment") and external (e.g. supportive relationships, challenging facts, negative experiences). A few will respond. Many won't. And some will...eventually.

Lastly, Hie, you're right in that we can't let them determine our response. Such stoicism is difficult and costly but necessary, even as people we love distance themselves to protect their "emotional investment."

I will summarize my position as follows:


Never underestimate the power of the suasion of faith.


(Even when that faith strikes the outside observer as clearly monumentally silly, and insulting to Mankind's intellect. Leaving appears to be the 'obvious' path to recovery of self-respect - but the member cannot seem to grasp that, certainly in the early stages of the 'process'.)


edit: my initial attempt wasn't crystal-clear - maybe this is no better ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2019 02:23PM by 3X.

No problem there, 3X. I think we're dealing with shades of nuance. I think the big take-away is your term (and concept), "emotional investment."

I agree.
And I'd add that there is no "one size fits all" solution. I think it's important to recognize that.

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

If your goals are to maintain a relationship of trust and acceptance, it is probably a bad idea to start it out by shitting all over their religion. Not because there isn't a lot to shit on but instead because you have initiated an environment where your thoughts and beliefs are free to be shat on as well. To be clear, my goal is not for me to trust and accept them it is for them to trust and accept me. I want to act in such a manner so that they feel that they can come to me. In such an environment you may then become free to share what you have learned.

I may also think this way because I have, long ago, dropped the idea that Joseph's and Brigham's asshattery is not the reason Mormonism is a pile of trash but instead proof that it is is a steaming pile. The fact that Joseph seduced and slept with teenagers behind his wife's back, using murdering angels, as a means to coerce these girls isn't why Mormonism is wrong so I'm not going to bring it up as a reason Mormonism is wrong.

The basic doctrines of salvation are the number one reasons why Mormonism is wrong. Why spend time trying to convince someone that the Book of Mormon is 100% 19th century fiction when they also believe in the equally fictitious Bible, PoG, D&C, and modern day revelation? Joseph was a bad man but their scriptures make David out to be all that and he straight up murdered a man so he could sleep with his wife. Brigham was a maniacal dictator but Moses twice that asshole. The stories go on and on. So trying to say that the BOM is made up does little good when everything they believe in is made up.

The basic and overriding theme of Mormonism is that the experiment of humanity failed and that it can only be saved through the brutal torture and murder of a demigod. That is why it is wrong.


I also think that it is a good idea to do the math yourself and not trust in someone else's assessment. If someone explains something to me I'm not just going to take their word for it. I'm going to do the math myself.

"you should just move on", because it is NEVER purely issued as it is ALWAYS issued with ulterior conditions and motives of the issuer attached to it.

Like when some one quits THE (MORmON) church and they dare state the reasons why they quit. Then MORmONS love to say that person should "just move on" .....which really means not saying bad things about THE (MORmON) church.

The thing is, that person DID move on, in a big way, when they dumped the MORmON church. But MORmONS have to come along and issue the challenge to "move on" in the way that they think that "moving on" should be done. That is the MORmON'S way of asserting their concerns and values in the situation.