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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: February 06, 2019 05:18PM

I sure did. The whole church from top to bottom has been about the manipulation of people and their feelings. As a missionary, that's all that we did. We role played and used tricks and gimmicks to manipulate investigators' feelings to join the church.

I am punishing myself by listening to the Dew. Apparently, she was so overwhelming as a speaker because she has not been invited back to BYU since her 2003 speech. Here's her quote about God not manipulating his children.

"There is only one thing the power of God and the power of Satan have in common: Neither can influence us unless we allow them to. The devil can’t make us do anything. Said the Prophet Joseph: “Satan cannot seduce us by his enticements unless we in our hearts consent and yield” (The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook [Orem, Utah: Grandin Book Company, 1991], 65). On the other hand, although God could manipulate us, He never has and never will. We “are free to choose . . . eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the . . . power of the devil” (2 Nephi 2:27). In short, the kind of power operating in our lives is entirely up to us."

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2019 05:20PM by messygoop.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 06, 2019 08:03PM

And LDS kids grow up manipulating each other. It makes for frosty adult relationships.

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Posted by: Chica ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 10:53AM

I consider it controlling, but manipulation works, too. If you can manipulate someone's feelings, it's easier to control their behavior.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 11:51AM

Chica Wrote:
> If you can manipulate someone's feelings, it's easier to control their behavior.

I felt very manipulated and controlled. Beginning with being told what to wear.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 01:35PM

I started reading parts of this book today from the index page of RfM. "LIFE AFTER MORMONISM and THE DOUBLE-BIND"

It addresses organizational manipulation, from a former now ex-Mormon, who has been on RfM since 1997. It's pretty insightful.

"This book is not just about Mormonism. It is about a universal pattern. Since The Pattern is a form of illogical logic, it is difficult to detect without knowing its stages and where they lead. Once seen, it can be arrested, and disentanglement is possible ... wherever it may be found."

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Posted by: Cathy ( )
Date: February 08, 2019 01:56PM

Thanks for the link! Can't wait to read it.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 01:59PM

I hated going to the temple on Saturdays. It was too long of a drive to the temple just to wait for your turn to enter the cesspool for the so-called baptisms for the dead. I never understood why it was so critical for me to attend; especially since I was called the Lemuel of the quorum.

On this trip I grabbed a couple pieces of fruit and stashed them into a paper sack. That was my breakfast at 5:45 because my mom didn't do breakfast before 9am. There was a mad dash to the "drop off" spot at the carpool lot. I would join six other boys in the back of a Mormon station wagon. Another car was carrying the YW of my ward and another car with adult chaperones rounded out our caravan to the temple.

About an hour into the drive, my stomach began to growl uncontrollably. I grabbed a banana out of my sack. I peeled it and took a bite. It was a most satisfying snack. Then the car swerved and I looked up and Brother Glee was staring at me in the mirror.

"Messy what are you doing" he asked.

I'm eating a banana. Don't worry. I promise to put the peel back into the sack."

Brother Glee became very agitated and his anger was reflected through his aggressive driving. "We don't eat when going to the temple."

"Oh okay. I'll wait until we get to the temple parking lot and then I will finish eating."

Sister Glee chimed in. "No Messy. You misunderstood. We don't eat period. We fast when we go to the Lord's house. We want his spirit. And now you're going to wreck our temple experience by breaking our fast."

Sister Glee then blabbered on as if she had her own half-an hour testimony meeting. She went on and on about her health problems involving wrinkles, the opinion that she thought that she was the ugliest woman in her family and that the Lord had punished her with 3 miscarriages because she was not righteous enough.

I gave in and stopped eating. I was hungry all morning. We finished about noon. However, the chaperones wanted to do an endowment session. So we, the youth, were corralled into one of the auxiliary buildings for a 2 hour fast and testimony meeting. We were told that we had to bear our testimony if we wanted to leave. I hated the whole experience so I just sat in the folding chair. I did not want to bear my testimony. I closed my eyes and took a nap.

I woke up to a dull pain. I felt pressure on my back. I turned around and there was Shelia with her foot pressing on my back.

"Look who woke up. It's dum-dum Messy. We're still waiting for your testimony so we can leave." Shelia continued to kick me from behind with her pointy shoes.

That's when Sister Glee got real close to my ear and whispered that the Holy Ghost wanted me to share my wonderful testimony. She choked up and got teary eyed. She then started her Jesus loves everyone speech and that I was setting a poor example. Before she lost control of her faculties, I stood up and said a 3 line testimony.

I hated being manipulated to do stuff that I didn't want to.

Funny ending. My story wouldn't be complete if I didn't reveal this tidbit. Brother Glee was very unhappy that I had been holding up their departure to break their fast. So I was told not to sit down because he told me to say the closing prayer. I was also reminded to bless the food that would be eaten at a restaurant. I had a weird habit of praying with one eye open. So while I was praying, a boy in the back launched a hymnbook at me. I twisted to deflect the hit and it bounced off my shoulder. It hit Brother Glee in the arm. Without waiting for me to finish, he stood up and saw Shelia bobbing her head while making snorting sounds. We all watched him take her by the hand to drag her out of her seat. She had a small tantrum before we left the temple with such a strong spirit of accomplishment. :D

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 03:03PM

messygoop Wrote:

> ...wait for your turn to enter the cesspool

I was never in the temple, did you have to actually go into a baptismal pool, one after another? I can only imagine the germs floating around in there!

>"We don't eat when going to the temple."

Sheesh that emphasis on fasting. I never did it. Never once did I fast on 'Fast and Testimony' day. I never testified but I did see the same old people blubbering every time.

I salute your 'three sentence testimony' hahahah!

I think two things about this typical Sunday of yours. First, I think it is stupid and ridiculous.

Second, I do think if you could withstand a childhood like that, you are a very strong person, and strong to question this cult after being force-fed indoctrination experiences like that!

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 03:31PM

Why a cesspool?

On that particular trip, I lucked out. I finagled my way to the back of the line to be dunked. My ward ran out of time. There were two other youth groups waiting along the wall and the temple worker cut off the screen that was recording the baptisms. My PH leaders wanted to dunk each youth 15 times.

On a previous trip, one of the girls was unable to plug her nose. The chlorinated water ran up her nose and it made her sick. She blew out snot and it was still floating around when I went in some 4-5 persons behind her. We were always told that if we had enough faith, then we wouldn't become ill. Hogwash!

Another thing that I despised was wearing the temple water-suits. It was a heavy duty polyester affair that defined your body. I was uncomfortable as a guy because it easily wedged in my butt crack. I saw a lot of body shape from the young women as well.

One other thing. Even though the church had showers in the changing area, they were not private, but consisted of an open shower tree. After coming back from being dunked, you would see a gaggle of naked men showering. There was no privacy then (1980s). Many of my church aged acquaintances would choose NOT to shower. They felt uncomfortable so they would ride home unshowered. It was a most uncomfortable feeling after going to the so-called Lord's house.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 03:39PM

Second, I do think if you could withstand a childhood like that, you are a very strong person, and strong to question this cult after being force-fed indoctrination experiences like that!

I try to be strong. It took me a long time not to care what members thought or might say of me. The brainwashing ran really deep and I tried to balance the ridiculousness of the religion with the possibility that it was true. It's a giant fraud.

What got me through a lot of this was having a strong sense of humor. The problem is that I would sometimes laugh when it was very inappropriate. It's how I deal with stress.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 05:53PM

messygoop Wrote:

> What got me through a lot of this was having a strong sense of humor.

I applaud your sense of humor!

>The problem is that I would sometimes laugh when it was very inappropriate. It's how I deal with stress.

There are a lot worse ways to deal with stress! :) :) :)

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 05:51PM

messygoop Wrote:

> My PH leaders wanted to dunk each youth 15 times.

They never tell converts any of this! Ugh!!!

> She blew out snot and it was still floating around


See, this is a reason this Board is so valuable, sharing horrifying experiences and finding the humor!

> I saw a lot of body shape from the young women as well.

Oh man I just cannot believe...this cult with its emphasis on modesty and no touching and no s*x and yet makes young kids climb in and get wet in front of I said, Messy, you are a STRONG person to survive this with your sense of humor and ability to think, intact!!!

So, let me make sure I've got this: pay (or your parents) lots o'money, work for free, be starved and forced into a grotty pool possibly full of snot and whatever e.Coli was not previously rinsed off the person before you, and then either shower naked in front of strangers or wear that all home.

Another day in Paradise! (not)

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: February 07, 2019 10:11PM

Yes mel. You've nailed it and there are many more that people have bravely shared their experiences (both good and bad) here at RFM. It was mostly my Mom that was trying in vain to impress Mormon royalty because she was a convert. She never won any of them over. She was good enough to paint anything for church (with her own $) and she was good enough to be a primary teacher for 30 some years. However, she was forever passed over to be called in RS, Primary or the YW presidency. From time to time, she complains about it.

My father was also a convert, but he had a harder time believing in JS. He thought that JS had visions because JS never wanted to do an honest day's work in his life. That sort of thinking caused the bishopric to crack down on the openly doubting-dissenting members. He was told to either get into Sunday school and keep his mouth shut or get out of the building. So my Dad became inactive and the church tried very hard to persuade me to hate him. The church almost succeeded because I resented advancing through the Aaronic Priesthood by being set apart by the priesthood advisers. I am still in shock how close the church came to convince my Mom to leave my Dad because of his "chosen" apostasy.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 08, 2019 03:07PM

messygoop Wrote:

>she was forever passed over....

Yet another reason, as a convert, I am so glad I left before they piled any more insults onto me!!!

>JS never wanted to do an honest day's work in his life.

And, it worked well for him! And for generations of his followers (GAs, Bishops, etc)!

I think I would have liked your Dad! hahaha!

It is amazing to me the stuff we are all having to work through on this board. I wasn't in that long yet I still have things that hurt and bothered me...we are truly survivors, so glad to have 'met' all of you here, and again, I am so sorry about your house burning down and the church not helping.

But, things like that are what brought us all here, so there truly was a silver lining, these horrors can help others put their own experiences into perspective, and see this stuff is not just done to us, it wasn't some personal failing of ours, its institutional......

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Posted by: kilgravmaga ( )
Date: February 08, 2019 03:15AM

Bullies in charge of youth, making more bullies.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: February 08, 2019 01:28AM

Mormondumb is nothing but a cult, and a cult is full of manipulation. When I first learned about cult characteristics, right in front of me were the characteristics of mormonism.

There is authoritarianism up the ying-yang, the trick of keeping members dizzy-bizzy so they don't know where to start and when to stop, the dangling stick promising you a very special heaven if you behave but the scary devil is going to get you if you don't, they spell out the rules of how to dress, what to eat, read, think and say and on and on it goes.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 08, 2019 02:08PM


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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: February 10, 2019 03:26PM


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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: February 10, 2019 04:11PM

I agree with Chica. My first thought would be control. They are all about control. Manipulation works much more easily once they get control over you.

I saw the control kick in once they got me to say I believed JS was a prophet. Once you objected or resisted something the response was, "Don't you believe in the need for a modern day prophet? Don't you believe JS was a prophet?" If I said, "YEs", then I was told that I wasn't following JS nor obeying the prophet who is God's mouthpiece on earth.

Once I realized JS was NOT a prophet but a real horror of a man, the control ended and with it the manipulation. I think I knew all along that the living prophets were just pretending. Nothing they proclaimed ever made any sense to me.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 10, 2019 04:20PM

That’s where it got confusing for me. Was I supposed to act the way JS actually was? Or BY? Because that gets people excommunicated real fast.

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: February 10, 2019 10:33PM

I know that it is -- with every fiber of my bean!

There is literally no important aspect of it that is not manipulative.

False authority claims.
False revelation claims.
False promises.

How did Joe get so many women to sleep with him?

Answer: Manipulation.

He didn't hold a gun to their heads (AFAIK). But he exploited their inclination to believe in god, Jesus and angels and prophets to manipulate them into thinking that GOD actually WANTED THEM TO SLEEP WITH JOSEPH SMITH.

In his early years, Joe tried to find buried gold and treasure chests. Then he discovered that he could get more gold and treasure by manipulating ordinary human gullibility than he could ever get by actually digging holes in the ground. Then after mining human gullibility in the area of treasure hunting, he discovered that even richer veins of gullibility could be found in the area of religious belief. Then he was off to the races. If he hadn't been such a clumsy fraud, he would have been much more successful. But he had so much contempt for his marks and dupes that he got sloppy in his lies and overreached about 10 times too many times, so many of the marks got wise to his schemes. People who were burned once by his fraudulent "investment" schemes (e.g. Ann Eliza Young's father) were not inclined to be burned again. People who saw his character flaws up close soon realized that he was lying in the service of his own avarice and appetites. William Law got fed up. Joe got mad at being exposed by William Law. Joe ended up being an unwilling martyr to his own collection of lies.

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