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Posted by: jamie ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 03:45AM

Dearest RfM,

I've lurked from time to time, sometimes wanting to post, but never getting around to it. By way of introduction, I was an "anti" in my youth, working with a temple outreach, going to Institute, and Sunstone, well, and just learning everything I could about Mormondom. It was my calling. By the time I was winding up college, I found some distractions in life and gradually left the ministries...

Fast-forward 25 years to today. Some strange goings on in my life trigger some questions. I wind up going to some ex-mormon meetings, and WOW are there a lot of you guys now. I guess the internet, the musical, and warren jeffs sort of ruined it for this idea in the 80s and 90s that the Mormon Church was going to be the fastest growing.

So, to break my RfM silence, I recently heard a very kind ex-mormon woman talk about blood letting. And after I thought i knew all there was to Mormonism, what is THIS all about? Has anyone done it?

Also, I heard a few months ago that there is going to be a Godmakers 3 (Godmakers III?) coming out in the quite near future. I was wondering if any of the Godmakers films helped anyone to get out of there? I got to meet and work with the late Chuck Sackett and he taught me the handshake and some of the gestures, and that was SO cool. Also I hear Ed Decker will be appearing in this newest iteration of the series.

does anyone have any dish about the bribery prosecution of the Palm Springs Mayor for selling the city council votes, to include for the Marriott Hotel? Please, do tell.

discuss, and thanks for letting me play in your lovely sandbox.

love,
jamie

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Posted by: Strength in the Loins ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 03:58AM

Hi Jamie. I am glad you are chiming in here and I welcome you to our forum. However, I am going to speak very candidly here....

The Godmakers was complete and utter sh*t. I think it actually had the effect of driving questioning Mormons deeper into the cult as opposed to luring them out of it. The Godmakers painted an extremely over-the-top, very sensationalist picture of the LDS church. To the rank-and-file member, it just came off as absurd and it totally played into LDS church's hands as they tried to portray anti-Mormons as liars seeking to thrawt the work of God.

You will find that the vast majority of us on this board are agnostic or atheist. The Godmakers came with a heavy dose of evangelizing and it is no secret that Ed Decker and his crap movie really found its target audience with Christian congregations that were scared of losing their members to a cult that at the time was still experiencing rapid growth. While almost everybody on this board looks at the Mormon church with revulsion, I think you will find that general opinions of Evangelical Christianity are just as low or even lower than the opinions of our former faith.

I thought Ed Decker was a low life hack when I was a practicing Mormon. I continue to think that Ed Decker is a low life hack now that I am out. That much has not changed.

As for blood letting... no it is not a thing. I mean, yes, you could make the case that blood atonement was taught by JS and BY and there were those really perverse gestures that we did in the endowment ceremony prior to 1990. But actual blood letting? No, it's not a thing. Perhaps there is some super culty fringe of the church that practices it, but for 99.99% of mainstream Mormons, it isn't a real thing.

There are truly volumes and volumes of legitimate problems and critiques that could be leveled against the church without having to resort to sensationalism and made-up BS to do it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 04:15AM by Strength in the Loins.

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Posted by: Darren Steers ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 09:23AM

Strength in the Loins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The Godmakers was complete and utter sh*t. I
> think it actually had the effect of driving
> questioning Mormons deeper into the cult as
> opposed to luring them out of it.

This^^^^^^

Absolutely true, Godmakers kept me in the cult, when facts and evidence would have got me out.

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Posted by: Not lds ( )
Date: February 18, 2019 01:10AM

So Mormons don't believe that they will become rulers of planets with multiple wives to populate them? Is this new doctrine?

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Posted by: Guy3 ( )
Date: February 18, 2019 11:47PM

Yes they still believe that will happen (a long time down the road during a long long eternity). What they mean by saying Godmakers is shit, is that, well the movie sucked. It was sensationalist and preachy. It was not convincing to true believers. It was blaringly anti-Mormon, such as using terms like "the Mormon Jesus." That phrase a lone shows who their audience was. To True Believers Jesus, and the Mormon Jesus are one and the same.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: February 19, 2019 01:12PM

This is somewhat of a personal pet peeve of mine so on occasion I jump up on the soap box.


The ruler of your own planet doctrine is and always has been a strawman. Gordon Hinkley gets to deny it and Mormons get to laugh derisively about people thinking that Mormons will get their own planet.

What Mormons actually still believe is that as an exhaled being that they will be creators just like Elohim and Jehovah are creators. They won't get their own planet, they will be capable of creating whole universes. This has been reiterated by every prophet up to and including Russ.

As for the multiple wives. Mormons will tell you, after you demonstrate that plural marriage is still doctrine. They'll tell you that consent, while not doctrinal, is implied. As if that makes it ok.

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Posted by: Guy3 ( )
Date: February 19, 2019 08:12PM

Every Mormon I've talked to that grew up in the Church says, when in private, that they believe it. I've never met any that laugh at those that believe it. But that was just my experience.

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Posted by: notmonotloggedin ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 06:29PM

It would seem that there is more than enough evidence that it was practiced; that it was taught is not even in question

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 10:40AM

Your use of the words "left the ministries" doesn't make sense. That was not a term used by Mormons for what you claim. This makes me wonder if you were a part of some Christian group out to smear Mormons or what type of Mormon background you had.


The Godmakers is not viewed favorably by many ex-Mormons. It is sensationalized, taking things our of context and cherry picking anything that can be twisted into a National Inquirer mentality.


It sounds like you are fishing for information to twist in cahoots with the Godmakers mentality.


I think you will need to raise the quality of the information and research if you want any credibility. Godmakers is tabloid trash level.

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: February 14, 2019 12:00AM

I caught the same thing, Dagny. And "Temple Outreach"? WTH?

Fake post.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 10:58PM

"left the ministries" ... I noticed the same thing. The evangelistic lingo gives it away.

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: May 10, 2019 02:19PM

yeah, "left the ministries " screams out this guy is a fake.

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Posted by: Old Al ( )
Date: May 10, 2019 02:38PM

His language is not fake. He said he was anti-Mormon, not ex-Mormon. My guess is he was an anti-Mormon demonstrating at temple open houses. He was an evangelical trying to convert Mormons. I’ve seen them everywhere at pageants and open houses.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 11:25AM

I think the "Godmakers" book and movies were mainly useful to nevermos who were trying to learn something about Mormonism. In the days before the internet, there just wasn't a lot of information available to church outsiders who wanted to hear about the Mormon church from someone other than a missionary or TBM. But with the benefit of hindsight, i agree with those who find the movies sensationalized.

Now there is a ton of information available, both through this website and others. For instance, Mormon Think is a great resource. You can even see videos of temple ceremonies online now.

I honestly can't imagine what good another "Godmakers" film would do under the circumstances.

I will say that "anti" material that comes from evangelical Christians is most often not effective in getting TBMS to rethink their faith. Often the best place for TBMs to start is through Mormon church sources that are now somewhat more honest about church history (collectively known as "the essays," and linked at the top of this board.) The CES letter is also persuasive for many.

Things have indeed changed and more and more people are leaving the church. Young missionaries are leaving their missions in significant numbers. I don't know if it has yet reached a tipping point, but it does look like church leadership is worried about the loss in numbers.

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Posted by: Eric K ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 11:49AM

I fully agree with the 4 replies above. The godmakers played a role in keeping me in Mormonism longer than I might have stayed. The tabloid style of presenting issues with Mormonism is not effective with most active Mormons. If fact, it has the opposite effect. Truth does not need to be sensationalized nor exaggerated.

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Posted by: Historian ( )
Date: February 17, 2019 06:42PM

So what you are saying is that it was effective for some folks to get out.

I hear so much hate about Ed Decker. Direct your anger at yourselves for being so gullible...

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 17, 2019 07:07PM

Eric didn't say that at all. What he said was that Decker's nonsense may well have strengthened the church and kept more people in than it encouraged to move out. On balance, he bolstered Mormonism.

No one was being gullible when they rejected Decker. The gullible are those who listen to such hyperbole and take it seriously.

If people want to damage the church, they should publish balanced material that is factually correct and presented dispassionately. THAT is what encourages people to take a fresh look at dangerous movements.

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Posted by: Historian ( )
Date: February 18, 2019 11:34PM

Like the "facts" presented here...

way way too funny!!!!

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 18, 2019 11:41PM

Specifics?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 06:27PM

Still no specifics, Historian?

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Posted by: Historian ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 08:45PM

no specifics to those that have already made up their minds....

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 10, 2019 12:16AM

I'm sure you think that is profound. But it doesn't change the fact that you are lauding a con man.

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Posted by: Historian ( )
Date: May 14, 2019 10:47PM

Hmmm.... con man...

My Sister joined your church in 1982. married in 1983 in the temple. parents and I weren't allowed to go. we weren't good enough for your church.

Con man? You are the one who got conned....

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 03:10PM

Historian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Direct your anger at yourselves for being so gullible...

I do and I was born into this nonsense.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 02:00PM

Welcome friend

Perhaps you could clarify your term "blood letting"

1. Blood oaths were administered in the temple until around 1990.
The oaths were that the person would not reveal certain parts of the temple ceremony. Rather than do so, they would suffer their life to be taken.

No cutting or bleeding was required at the time the oath was taken. Though the person pantomimed various ways they could die.

2. If you're referring to the medical practice of bleeding or leaching to restore a person's humors or bodily fluid balance as performed 200 or more years ago. I have thoroughly read the diaries of my ancestor Patty Sessions. She was a practicing midwife and healer from the 1830s to the 1880s, both in Nauvoo and in early pioneer Utah.

I have read her descriptions of treating patients. Read her lists of homemade medicines. I don't recall a single mention of her bleeding or leaching a patient.

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Posted by: East Coast Exmo ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 02:26PM

The closest thing I know to bloodletting had to do with the cutting of temple garment marks in the early endowment.

These days the garment marks are sewn into the cloth. In the very early church, they were cut into the garments while the person receiving the endowment wore them. I doubt the cuts were deep, but they did cause bleeding.

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,447462
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_(Mormonism)#Later_modifications_by_the_LDS_Church

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Posted by: orthus ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 02:28PM

Decker and the “Godmakers” quite possibly caused me to stay in the church about 20 years longer than I would have otherwise. As several others have also noted, I reasoned that because of the sensationalism and even outright dishonesty in the films all ex or “anti” mormons were liars or struggled with truth. Or at the very least were deceived and instruments of the devil.

If there is going to be a third installment and Decker is involved, I wouldn’t waste time or recommend anyone watch it unless he came out and denounced his previous tactics. There is enough in Mormonism that you don’t have to stretch the truth to show Smith was a fraud and current leaders continue to perpetuate the fraud.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 02:29PM by orthus.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 04:22PM

(anono this week)
You've sparked my curiosity about this "blood letting." Back in the planning stages for the Salt Lake Temple all
(and I mean all) the rites of the ancient Hebrew religion from Egypt and Abraham were in to be restored and practiced
in preparation for ushering in the 2nd coming as it says in Malichi where the sons of Levi are to perform a sacrife
in righteousness before the great and terrible day... Brigham did have plans for a secret room in the basement where
human blood sacrifices were suppose to be performed as the Nephites and Aztecs and others did in Barbarian times.

It didn't make the final cut so all the blood atonements were done out in the streets of Salt Lake by the destroying angels,
(daughters of Zion). There are some facinating accounts of the early rites done in the Endowment house documented in
Tell it all 1877 by Fanny Stenhouse. They were actually bathed in bathtubs in the basement and pored oil all over themselves.
It was a sticky mess!

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: February 14, 2019 12:07AM

I call bullshit. Are you the OP?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 06:35PM

Please provide some evidence, any evidence, that:

1) Any LDS leader ever discussed or planned human sacrifices of any sort;

2) Any LDS leader ever said that any temple should have a room for conducting human sacrifices;

3) Any indication that the LDS church ever taught, or thought, that the restoration would include Aztec rituals.

I strongly suspect that there is no such evidence.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 04:49PM

Are you as concerned about "blood letting" connections with other religions? I hope Ed Decker includes how creepy it is that Christians revere a God shedding blood for sin currency.


Honestly, you can find just as much crazy stuff in practically any other religion. Just because it is more obvious with Mormons (since they are more recent) doesn't mean other religions should get a pass. Consistency in criticism toward Mormons has been difficult. When you think about crazy Moses willing to kill his son, Mormons don't seem any more whacked. If people think they are doing God's will, well, you end up with fringe Deckers.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 05:11PM

Godmakers III? Oh, Gawd.

Normally it is three strikes and yer out, but Godmakers original was a short pop fly into foul territory, easily shagged by the catcher. To call it tabloid level propaganda is an insult to tabloids. Ed should really find another hobby. Godmakers doesn't even qualify as comic relief.

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Posted by: jamie ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 06:00PM

ooops repost



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 06:04PM by jamie.

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Posted by: jamie ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 06:03PM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the warm welcome, and really expectedly astute observations.

When I say "left the ministries" I was never a Mormon. Rather, I worked with Christian outreaches to Mormons, trying to save souls during my spare time in high school.

I don't know much about Godmakers 3 other than what I told you except I'm told that the producers went to a great deal of effort to make sure it was not as sensational as the prior three documentaries. Remember there was Temple of the Godmakers, and then Godmakers 2. Although I never met him, Ed Decker is in his 80s, so I'd guess he has mellowed out some.

On blood letting, I was not referring to blood atonements, blood oaths, or law of vengeance, but as far as I can tell there is a belief that bleeding yourself helps atone for all those past sins the Jesus of the Book of Mormon can't. I think it is something still in practice among some in the last few decades, and for sure, this ex-Mormon had been "bled" IN the temple.

I have a lot of family who are atheist or agnostic, so no biggie on that front. I hope you don't mind if, from time to time, I might hint around at the existence of your own soul. My recent experience has been that while there are a lot of ex-Mormons who believe in atheism, there is still a whole slew who have turned out to believe in Jesus in the born-again way. More than ever on both fronts, it seems.


Love,
your new pal jamie

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 07:03PM

Jamie, what you need to understand is that many board members here were formally "all in." They were members for years if not decades, attended the temple dozens or even hundreds of times, held important callings including bishop, stake president, etc. Tom Phillips has posted here -- he was a bishop in England who received the rare 2nd anointing ordinance in the temple. If our board members tell you that there is no blood-letting in the temple, you can rely on that. In more than a decade on this board, I have never once seen a reference to it in contemporary times. As has already been mentioned, the marks that are now on garments (the square, the compass, etc.) were cut lightly onto the body in the very early days of the church.

You are welcome to post on Christian topics, but proselytizing is NOT allowed on this board, and such posts will be removed in short order. The board members here are in recovery from a high-demand faith, and have no desire for someone to preach at them.

Some board members eventually join other Christian churches, some pursue other faiths such as Judaism and Buddhism, and some turn atheist or agnostic. There is quite a range here, and all are welcome.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 08:28PM

jamie:

I want to second what summer said about the rules against proselytizing on this board. Any proselytizing (in the opinion of Admin and the mods) will be quickly deleted.

In other words: Do not "hint around about the existence of your own soul"--the purported "existence" of which is a religious belief, rather than a scientific fact.

Promoting a "belief in Jesus" (or ANY religious belief) is also proselytizing and is definitely not allowed here. There is still controversy in academia about whether the person in the New Testament, who is identified as Jesus, even existed as "a" historical figure [rather than a mythical, or a conflated--which is one of the Jewish academic views--character].

There is a huge spectrum of belief/non-belief here on RfM (involving a good share of the different religions of the world), coupled with a large and worldwide group of people who have always appeared to me to be well above average in both intelligence and learning.

Members here are often intensely sharp, and often extremely well-educated (including many who are self-taught), and the discussions which take place here can be on the level of the best I have ever experienced anywhere.

Welcome to RfM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2019 08:31PM by Tevai.

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Posted by: William Law ( )
Date: February 14, 2019 12:13AM

I wouldn't call your welcome warm.

And you can stop lying, already.

You: "I think it is something still in practice among some in the last few decades, and for sure, this ex-Mormon had been "bled" IN the temple."

Garbage truck full of bullshit.

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Posted by: jamie ( )
Date: February 17, 2019 01:52AM

dear all,

you are a tough crowd, but that's okay.

from what i've read on and off the past few years, the reason i asked about blood-letting, was because i thought if anyone knew, it was here. it was just a curiosity.

on the Godmakers front, i wasn't sure if any of you heard that news, but was glad to give this board the scoop.

i've known a lot of ex-mormons since i was a teenager, over 30 years ago. and i've really grown to love ex-mormons, and have learned a lot from you. my purpose is not to evangelize anyone here srsly there's other places for that, but i've seen you all on this board, atheist, agnostic, Moonies, whatevs, have a lot of knowledge of the LDS Church. and a lot of you go about it in very clever and humorous ways.


what i'm really interested in knowing is: how far has the church gone with the White Horse prophecy. there's something like over 7 billion people in the world, and only 15 million LDS. from what i'm seeing, even though there's something like 1.8% LDS in california, the percentages are astronomical in some localities and government agencies.


does anything think like a blog, or a thread, or even something more sophisticated, where people could put down (with anonymity an option) who they know is in government and a member of the LDS Church?


is there also some way to access the temple records index without going to a family research center?


about the thing with james joseph hamula, is there an update? is it really true the church never releases the reason for excommunications on this level, because i think at one point some decades ago, they did. will the records ever get released on MormonLeaks?


anyways, thanks again, guys. please go easier on me. i've always liked summer's posts!


love,

jamie

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: February 17, 2019 11:54PM

jamie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i've known a lot of ex-mormons since i was a
> teenager, over 30 years ago. and i've really
> grown to love ex-mormons, and have learned a lot
> from you. my purpose is not to evangelize anyone
> here srsly there's other places for that, but i've
> seen you all on this board, atheist, agnostic,
> Moonies....

I do know you are being humorous, but in my now more than fifteen years on RfM, I cannot remember even a single Moonie or ex-Moonie ever posting here.

> does anything think like a blog, or a thread, or
> even something more sophisticated, where people
> could put down (with anonymity an option) who they
> know is in government and a member of the LDS
> Church?

This paragraph goes over the line of our practices regarding legal issues. I was initially going to edit out this paragraph, but instead, I have left it in as one example of what NOT to do on RfM. We are punctilious here about not allowing any potential legal issues to be raised--and what you are suggesting here could lead to exactly this.


> is there also some way to access the temple
> records index without going to a family research
> center?

I personally do not know about this, but I was startled recently when I did a Google search on my birth name, and up popped my entire birth information on Ancestry.com. (Neither I, nor any member, of any part, of my birth family have ever been Mormon.) I don't know how my info got there, but it sure IS there!

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 06:52AM

jamie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what i'm really interested in knowing is: how far
> has the church gone with the White Horse prophecy.
> there's something like over 7 billion people in
> the world, and only 15 million LDS. from what i'm
> seeing, even though there's something like 1.8%
> LDS in california, the percentages are
> astronomical in some localities and government
> agencies.
>
>
> does anything think like a blog, or a thread, or
> even something more sophisticated, where people
> could put down (with anonymity an option) who they
> know is in government and a member of the LDS
> Church?

Do you want to know why LDS get good jobs in government?

Well, there are a variety of reasons, let me list a few:
* LDS do interviews from when they're small children. As a result, it helps when they come to job interviews.
* LDS encourage people to dress smartly and soberly. Again in job interviews that goes a long way.
* LDS encourage loyalty and group think. Again, this is a bonus for an employer.
* LDS encourage every adult member to hold a role in the church, again, good for job experience.
* LDS do public speaking, often from a very early age.

These are all positive things from the POV of an employer. They don't want dirty long hairs, who may or may not turn up, with no work ethic and no loyalty.

Where LDS fall down is in areas such as independent action and thinking. A few of the people here are still guilty of that, despite having left the church. LDS also have a strong family life, while outside the church, the family is degenerating rapidly - someone with a family can be controlled though, especially if they are in state security. A spy is less likely to defect if they have a family back home - even the Commies knew this, despite their hatred of the family and efforts to undermine it everywhere as a prelude to social collapse.

So the large number of LDS in government is partly down to their culture, not deliberate infiltration. In fact, since the LDS dropped polygamy round about the turn of last century, they've gone out of their way to conform to the US conservative mainstream, not the other way round.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 06:07PM

Based on your description and a previous comment about warren Jeffs I'd guess the person you're talking with is not a mainstream mormon but a member, clandestine or otherwise of one of the many off shoots.

With over a half centuryof experience in Mormonism and generations of family in it I have never heard of such a thing.

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Posted by: Hockeyrat ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 09:27PM

I have to admit that reading a lot of anti-Mormon literature, actually got me into the church. I read it and was curious, so went to the church and found out it wasn’t what the anti -Mormons said. It seemed family oriented and had tons of young adult activities. I got the book “ The truth about the Godmakers” in the church bookstore,by Gilbert W Scharffs.
It took the “ God makers” apart, page by page, line by line.
There’s so much on the Internet that one can look up stuff themselves now

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 10:33PM

Jamie,

I am new to the Board but just wanted to chime in here and tell you how much I appreciate Summer's and Tevai's rules and guidelines for the Board.

Had I posted a question here and received your: "hint around at the existence of your own soul" it would have killed me.

People here, especially newcomers like myself, are TRULY struggling, trying to make sense of a life-altering, life-destroying experience. We come here to learn from others and get help from them.

It didn't seem from your posting that you have lurked or read much here if you don't understand that.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 14, 2019 05:51AM

Mel, we are so glad to have you here! People like you are the reason that this board was created -- to have a soft place to land.

Tevai is a board moderator, but I am not. But I've been around here long enough to have a pretty good sense of what flies and what doesn't.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 14, 2019 09:52AM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>...to have a soft place to land.
>
Exactly! If I could have "Liked" or "up-arrowed" everything you and Tevai and "Logged out Today" said, I would have done that. I don't come here for someone to tell me hints about my soul, that's for sure.

The solid, supportive, been-there-done-that community here has given me so much help, and hearing their stories, some much worse than mine, has helped me understand that I wasn't an idiot to be enticed into the cult, that it has happened to others smarter and with more life experience than I!

> Tevai is a board moderator, but I am not. But I've been around here long enough to have a pretty good sense of what flies and what doesn't.

I am SO GRATEFUL that you all protect us from proselytizing.

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Posted by: logged out today ( )
Date: February 13, 2019 11:13PM

"I worked with Christian outreaches to Mormons, trying to save souls during my spare time in high school."

Bet that didn't go so well. Mormons are programmed to reject evangelical "outreaches" out of hand. As far as they are concerned, their souls are in good hands and don't need help from christians. You can keep your Jack Chick tracts.


"Also, I heard a few months ago that there is going to be a Godmakers 3"

Count me as another that Ed Decker kept in the church with his garbage. I reasoned that if all antimormons were like Decker, the church had nothing to be concerned about. One of my college roommates' friends was a born-again and kept trying to foist Decker's crap onto me. Annoyed me no end. If Decker's at it again he'll get little to no support here.


"I recently heard a very kind ex-mormon woman talk about blood letting... a belief that bleeding yourself helps atone for all those past sins the Jesus of the Book of Mormon can't."

That doesn't happen. Sounds like more lurid Deckerite stuff. Brigham Young's blood atonement was similar in that some sins were so bad that the atonement wouldn't cover it and so you had to die to repent properly. That's long gone, and the only bleeding now is metaphorical, when the church bleeds you of 10% to get into the temple.


"I might hint around at the existence of your own soul"

Yeah, no you won't. You thought mormons were a tough sell? This crowd is far tougher.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: February 15, 2019 05:14PM

The best way to dis-credit the mormon church is with truthful information. Telling lies about the church only dis-credits the liar. There is enough seriously wrong things with the Mormon church that just telling people about those things will discredit the church. There is no reason to lie. Any lies about the church are counter-productive if your goal is to discredit the church. If blood oaths, early church Danites, and modern day bishops interrogation of children about their sex lives doesn't shock people, the person has bigger problems than just mormonism.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2019 05:19PM by azsteve.

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: February 15, 2019 06:10PM

Not sure I'm reading this right. Who is "anti" and what are they against? Is it the OP who is "anti-Mormon"? Or the bloodletting claimer? Or ???

This web site doesn't really specialize in anti-Mormonism although, of course, many Mormons don't see it that way.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: February 16, 2019 09:44AM

The "anti" (anti-Mormon) people are the evangelical Christians who take it upon themselves to try to persuade Mormons away from the church and toward evangelical Christianity. Their efforts (including the "Godmakers" series) are often unsuccessful with TBMS because they employ sensationalism and over-the-top claims. The OP was one such "anti" and apparently still approaches the Mormon church, and exmos, with something of that viewpoint (hence the stated desire to talk to us from time to time about our souls.) So, most of the responses above are an attempt to explain to the OP that the "anti" approach normally doesn't work, that other approaches are more effective, and that no one here desires someone on the board preaching at us.

The blood-letting comment was incidental.

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Posted by: mel ( )
Date: February 17, 2019 11:54PM

Agree with all Summer. Excellent analysis.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 19, 2019 01:14PM

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The blood-letting comment was incidental.

It got my attention to a whole lot of nothing.

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Posted by: notmonotloggedin ( )
Date: May 09, 2019 06:25PM

Many people do leave Mormonism and become Christian.

I recall the God-makers film being a bit campy but there was still truth there.

If by blood-letting you are referring to blood atonement then I'd suggest you do some serious reading on the subject because it was practiced.

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Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: February 17, 2019 12:18PM

There is nothing wrong with bashing Mormonism as long as you're being truthful while doing it. The Mormon church has brought harm to the lives of many people here. Other-religion-based bashing of Mormonism gives the efforts of people like those found here on this board, a bad name. And classic anti-Mormonism is a caricature that is created by the mormon church to dis-credit anything that would bring doubt upon the mormon religion. That image lumps those with honest grievances against mormonism, right-in along with the liars, the religious fanaticals from other religions, and the insane. And mormon culture supports that dishonest image rather than to address it's own faulted premise and ongoing perpetuation of lies. They even pride themselves because of it when they claim to be persecuted because they have the only true church. The simple truth is that the mormon religion is founded upon lies, the biggest of which has everything to do with church founder Joseph Smith. They don't like it when you expose their lies.

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: May 10, 2019 12:13AM

I got out in my early twenties.

The Godmakers had zero influence on me. To this day, I don't think I've ever spent any significant amount of time looking at the Godmakers materials. I recall looking at a few excerpts that some TBMs circulated as examples of how inaccurate it was. At the time I had to agree that what I saw was inaccurate, so looking further into what the Godmakers had to offer was never a priority for me.

The main influences that actually did help me recognize and come to grips with the fraudulence of Mormonism were:

(1) Just my own doubts and thinking based on observing a disconnect between all the mythical hype and supernatural tales taught in the church vs. the ordinary, non-miraculous reality that I experienced every day as a church member. I had a crisis of faith in high school, but thought that maybe I really needed to serve on a mission and give it my all and only then would I be worthy of getting a "confirmation" from the Holy Ghost. The scriptures always bothered me too because I took them so seriously when I was young and obeyed the command to read and study the scriptures. The more time I spent with the "scriptures" the more obvious it became to me that they really weren't very helpful. The messages found in the scriptures were all over the place, often seeming to directly contradict each other and in most cases being so general and ambiguous that multiple different interpretations were possible. Things like the handshake test in D&C 129 and the treasure hunt in D&C 111 actually made me laugh because they seemed so ridiculous. The polygamy thing bothered me too. It just never made sense that God would introduce something like that as an essential part of the "restoration" and then just let the U.S. federal government shut it down... "God" is always such a big talker in the scriptures. But in the real world I saw that the big talk in the scriptures never amounted to anything when confronted with real-world forces and opposition.

(2) My missionary experiences. I quickly learned on my mission that the above-mentioned disconnect between the myths and hype vs. reality was even more obvious on the mission. The leaders were clearly just ordinary guys with no more inspiration than your average Pizza Butt, Taco Smell or Booger King manager (no insult intended toward conscientious managers of fast-food franchises). On my mission I also saw Hinckley stammering and stuttering and trying to change the subject when a missionary asked him about the nature of the "Book of Abraham" papyri.

(3) The materials put out by the Tanners. For the most part they simply printed out and distributed copies of actual documents. TBMs around me would try to call them liars and antis. I decided to check the sources myself and had access to the Harold B. Lee library at the time. The materials put out by the Tanners always checked out. (I was therefore not surprised later when it turned out that the Tanners were correct when they tried to warn the top leaders of the church that Mark Hoffman was a fraud and the top leaders turned out to have so little inspiration and discernment that they fell for Hoffman's scam anyway.)

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Posted by: Finally Free! ( )
Date: May 10, 2019 12:53PM

My limited experience with "The Godmakers" was when I was much younger, living in a southern state where it would pop up from time to time. Rival Churches would show it to demonstrate the threat of the LDS church.

The funny thing was, the members of the ward I was in were not threatened by it at all. They dismissed any of its claims easily as "anti-mormon" and wrong. (which other's here pointed out that it lies in attempt to get people out of the church). This meant that, frequently, in these small southern communities, when Godmakers was shown, people would ask their Mormon Friends about it. The members would disprove the lies and ignore the rest. They would then introduce them to the Missionaries and try to get them to be Baptised.

The Godmakers, to the Church membership, was a Missionary tool. It was no threat at all.

This boils down to the argument that many people here are making. Don't lie or exaggerate about the Church to try and convince people to leave. It plays into the persecution complex and keeps people in the church. Tell the truth, it's so much more damning anyway!

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