If this is the right place for questions then I have this:

In an argument with an apologist I asked about the Book of Abraham and each symbol having multiple interpretations. The apologist stated multiple things:

1. That it is a well known fact among Egyptologists that the Egyptians had multiple meanings for the same symbol. This is sort of like Masonry. The higher level priest you were meant you got a different level of meaning and understanding of the same symbol. The apologist ostensibly touted this as a way to keep sacred things from unworthy minds.
2. That modern Egyptologists constantly disagree on what the symbols mean.
3. That it is well documented that when Rome and other countries invaded Egypt that the Egyptian priests and demanded the knowledge of the famed Egyptian priests the priests then would give a lower level meaning of the symbol.

This seems like a cop out and evasive answer. Has anyone heard any truth to these claims or things that could be construed that way?

I had the same type of answer when I emailed fair Mormon about Israel ripping off their religion from the Cananites. In general the response was is that nobody really knows the relationship about Israel and Cannan. That even people with PHDs argued about its history. So the conclusion that Judiasm, the Bible, and Christianity came from God, and wasn't a complete rip-off is okay since we really don't know what happend.

And that's the answer with pretty much any academic ideal that is more than 100 years old. At that point every thing just got so confusing that any body can paint it "we don't know so God!" As Ken Ham keeps saying in defense of a global flood "you weren't there so you don't know! But I know of somebody who was there, and he wrote a book."

Not a shred of truth. When Ramses built a temple, he wanted the whole world to know it was Ramses who built it. When the Egyptian Internal Revenue Service wrote a new tax law, they wanted every Egyptian to know just how much they were expected to pay and when. When Cheops wanted a pyramid, he made damn sure that his architects knew exactly how big and where and how to orient it with regard to the sunrise on the spring equinox.

The Egyptians had standard weights and measures. They had official cubit rods that allowed them to get the sides of the pyramids to within 0.05%. You don't do that with secret meanings hidden behind four layers of complexity.

The notion of cosmic meaning to the hieroglyphics came from a book that was "discovered" in the Renaissance, attributed to Hermes Trimegistus. Everybody believed it. Everybody was channeling their inner Egyptian to find the hidden meaning of life, the universe and everything. Then sometime around 1650 some party pooper demonstrated via mistakes in the text that it was all a hoax. Every person with an ounce of sense agreed that "not yet translatable" did not mean "deep and dark and cosmic and really, really cool". This was even before the Rosetta Stone, which finally put an end to all the bull crap about ancient Egyptian hidden secrets.

If the Egyptians had any arcane secrets, it didn't help them very much when the Greeks showed up one day.

Besides, everybody knows that the ultimate answer is 42.

Does this help?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2019 01:10AM by slskipper.

Yes, this gives me a general idea. Are you referring to Asclepius and Corpus Hermeticum? (Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes_Trismegistus)

If you have any sources you can help me put in my notes that will be helpful for future me and other seekers I come across.

slskipper Wrote:

> When Ramses built a temple, he wanted the whole world to know it was Ramses who built it.

> Besides, everybody knows that the ultimate answer is 42.

slskipper,

I can't tell you how impressed I am that you not only know Egyptian history but also Douglas Adams!

I'll bet you are a lot of fun at parties!!!!

Thanks for the cool answer!

Mel

We'll let real Egyptologists take this one on.

Video shredding mormon BoA claims using people who actually know hieroglyphics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcyzkd_m6KE

And an essay from Prof. Robert Ritner, a bona fide Egyptologist:

http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-book-of-abraham.htm


Screw ignorant apologists.

I would refer you to the works of E. A. Wallace Budge. He has tutorials on reading Egyptian hieroglyphics.

His work "Egyptian Magic" is a scholarly work. It happens to have a detailed translation of a hypocephalus, or as you'd recognize it facsimile 2 in the book of Abraham.

Yes scholars often debate not just the meaning of a gylph or word but the meaning of a phrase. For example. "He carried a torch for her." Could mean either he had feelings for her or that he literally carried a torch. Even the word torch could mean either a fire at the end of a stick or in certain parts of the world a flashlight.

While my simple example shows that words and phrases can have multiple meanings, the meanings are consistent across all documents, if they were not, the written word would be too confusing to have any practical value. No one would know which meaning to use.

Joseph Smith was working with papyrus funerary texts that were missing some fragments. He pretended to complete the missing parts (probably thinking that nobody would ever know the difference).

Later, it was found that the funerary texts (and illustrations) were quite standard. Complete versions were found. All of the parts that Joseph Smith "completed" to fill in for the missing fragments, turned out to be comically wrong. Not just wrong, but wrong like a Mona Lisa with Mickey Mouse ears.

Not only can Egyptologists read hieroglyphs, you can too!

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1569142


And some textbooks for those who want more in-depth exposure:

https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1735214

Yes, it is a cop out and evasive answer. Apologists had more to do with me leaving the church than any other single reason. Their nonsense finally got me to open my eyes.

Anyone peddling such baloney he should also offer sources and evidence. This apologetic should back up the irresponsible claims with references at the very least, or shut up.

This is why we have the phrase, "Grasping at straws." Also see, "Any port in a storm."

What will he offer next? Biodegradable chariots that dissolve within twenty years?

Walk like an Egyptian
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv6tuzHUuuk

Really interesting thread. Thanks for the great information and links.

I’m not an expert in Egyptology but I’ve spent a considerable amount of time studying the art and archaeology and beliefs of the ancient Egyptians. These arguments that Mormon apologists raise are completely absurd. They carry just about as much weight as early Mormon leaders arguments for there being men on the moon.

Wow, color me totally impressed with the knowledge of folks here!

My cynical self thinks that expensive tour company in SLC conducting the LDS faithful to Egypt because of that mythical LDS connection has a vested interest in this hooey.

Their tours and revenue would take a steep dive otherwise.

Napoleon's Egyptian campaign of 1799 created a sensation when he brought back artifacts, drawings and information, furniture and fashions for the next few decades copied or were influenced by Egyptian styles.

JS's dabbling in Egyptian history and trying to claim some part of it, seems like it was just a way for him to be 'cool' and fashionable at the time. He didn't really know what he was doing but there weren't people around him smart enough or with enough time and scholarship to challenge him, I'm guessing.

I am so glad the people here have the knowledge to show him up for the poser he was!

notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They carry just about as much
> weight as early Mormon leaders arguments for there
> being men on the moon.

Squaring the circle is still popular amongst the religious.

Larson was a public schoolteacher in Utah who authored this volume and was fired from his teaching job as a result.

https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/dp/0962096326

Larson presented at an Exmormon Conference years ago; I couldn't make the audio link work, however. Perhaps someone can.

I also took a grad-level class in Egptology, and the professor was a delightful Polish woman who knew her subject. She made a cryptic reference in class to the Chandler papyrus and then said, "This is Utah; I better not say any more." I e-mailed her the next day, and she confirmed that was indeed what she was referring to.

And while I was Googling up Larson's book, I also saw a link to a FAIR presentation. In a week moment I clicked on it and ruined a brand new bullchip filter. FAIR = Frantic Attempt to Ignore Reality...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2019 11:16AM by SL Cabbie.

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Larson was a public schoolteacher in Utah who
> authored this volume and was fired from his
> teaching job as a result.

My brother in law Greg Hudnall was their executioner.

> https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Hand-Upon-Papyrus/d
> p/0962096326

Great book. I highly recommend it.

Sometimes we get lost in the weeds and forget relevant facts. Like the following.

Hieroglyphics was a dead system of writing until the 1820s. Champollion, using the work of others on the Rosetta Stone discovered the key. So anyone who claims to know the hidden meaning would also have to have a hidden key.

So all your friend has to do is produce proof of a hidden key and you can then continue the discussion.

The church does everything it can to foster belief in its truth claims (BoM, BoA, etc.etc.) in order to retain membership. They do this by encouraging scholars from within its ranks to develop what might pass as plausible explanations to the difficult questions.

The christian apologist Austin Farrar explained it this way.

“What no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.” Austin Farrar

In other words, it creates enough confusion as what the truth really is that one may dismiss facts that contradict their beliefs.

Further more, they encourage the member to do no internet research but rather only look within the scriptures and correlated teaching materials of the church for answers.

They were extremely common. Anyone who could be buried with them was. They range from highly customized (for Pharaohs and those who could afford them)beautiful objects covered with meticulously rendered and colorfully painted images, to hastily made "text only" copies for the poorer members of society. The latter versions literally had blanks that the buyer could fill in in order to personalize the text for their dead.

notmonotloggedin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The latter versions literally had blanks that the buyer could fill inin order to personalize the text for their dead.

Fascinating stuff! Thanks!