I think this board needs to change its policy and add another section. They have general discussion, bios and one other secution. I vote to add a section for apologetics, that is not in the general discussions board. That board is there for them to ask questions and present arguments, and for us to respond. If posted to general discussion, it gets redicts.

No more bans.

Why? Because for those of us that didn't leave overnight, the apologetic stage is a natural step. And in those steps this board, for better or worse, comes up in the search results.

I was an apologist for at lest a solid 3 of the five years before I left (old name TBM at Heart). I kept getting banned.

I had a section, now sense removed, about asking a limited geography book of Mormon believer, AMA style. One answer really stuck with me. That I was welcome here, and not just that, but that this board specifically is designed for people like me.

I didn't know what he meant then, but I do now. Apologetics is a basic, important step for leaving the church. New Order Mormons weren't as interested in dealing with apologetics either, it was more a help me keep my head above water type of forum. As a result, the topics aren't discussed and don't appear in Good results.

So I vote, in this non-democratic board, that they add another section purely to talk about apologetics, which won't be banned. Those that don't want to hear it, ignores it and stays in general discussion.

Because, to be honest, those who believe in apologetics have a place to talk to others who believe. Those who disbelieve apologetics have a place to talk. Both forums have rules that ban the other groups.

And that's unfortunate. Because my five year journey may have taken less time if I wasn't alienated by a group of people who understood me the most.

and I understand that people come here to heal, and to have a safe place. Apologetics can open those wounds, I get that. That is why it should not be in general discussion, that can and should stay the way it is.

At it's heart apologetics is a shell game, at it's heart its affinity fraud. I'm always game for a good discussion but apologetics don't play by the rules. They get selectively accept or reject facts to support the premise. Knowing this crowd that'll go over like a child in a bar.

Hi Guy3,

I don't know if apologists already have places to go, or don't, and as a result really need inclusion here.

But, it bothers me they sometimes come here, posting long discourses trying to disguise their true agenda. Reminds me of the church. On the other hand, the Board is supported completely by donations. And due to being regularly attacked and having to pay for tech support to get back on line, it is seeking donations currently.

So, coming from a capitalist viewpoint, given that another section of the Board for apologists would greatly contribute to the size and costs of maintaining the Board, I would say that if someone were willing to support the costs for a separate section, it might be do-able.

Otherwise, I would respectfully and regretfully disagree that this Board is the place for those apologizing for the church.

Apologists do have a place to go, kind of, but that is just to talk with other TBMs or apologists. and it is just a giant echo chamber and not helpful.

But I get the economics of it, didn't consider that. I just know that many many apologists are only 10 steps from leaving a lot of the time.

We could call the new room "The Anechoic Chamber".

Thank you, Mel.

I remember back in the wild 'n wooly days when a few apologists came here, and seriously, they caused a lot of harm.

The board rules are "this is not a forum for defenses of the faith," or a "forum for debate" (at least as far as ecclesiastical issues go). This is a "safe place" for people to come to recover from the trauma of an LDS upbringing. Even as a "technical Nevermo" (raised in SLC by Jack Mormon parents), I've got my scars.

Moreover, if "word got out" that any sort of proselytizing were permitted, the board would be quickly overrun.

There is at least one other board I'm aware of where debate is permitted, and I'm not sure if naming it is permitted (because of past abuses where they "hollered free speech" continuously), but you can find it easily enough with a Google search.

And can you imagine the difficulty of moderating the nonsense spewed by apologists? Our beloved mods have enough to do without having to navigate between their piles of what Cabbie calls "bull pucky".

When I first stumbled onto this forum, my head spinning from apologists, RFM provided a crucial place for me to begin to see things clearly. More apologists in the mix would have only made things worse.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2019 06:29AM by mikemitchell.

I started out years ago on Post-Mormon.org making fun of "post mormons" Naturally I now know how wrong I was. I was banned of course. Sometimes I think if they had tolerated me a little more and tried to counter me a little more I might have seen sooner how wrong I was.

And it isn't the answers from the other side that helps, but actually having to provide rational answers over and over again. At the time it would reintrench me, but in the long run I started seeing my errors.

Apologists don’t know they’re apologists. I’m all for an arena where they can willingly face the lions. Cats do like to play with their food.

Maybe apologist posts should be redirected to a coliseum where their lame arguments can be shredded. That would be more fun than deletion.

Well I'm thinking they just need to have different challenges than they are used to. Like, none of them have really been challenged on the doctrine implications and issues with Noahs ark story (look at their fair page, there is barely anything there). Even with a limited flood approach, there are serious problems. But they jsut hear and respond to the same issues and questions, and it would be nice to really have some thoughtful discourse.

Then again this is the internet, and there may be a reason it won't work. I just remember being banned when I needed this forum the most, and i just didn't know it. Going to a pro-apologist forum would have just been more damaging.

"I just remember being banned when I needed this forum the most, and i just didn't know it. Going to a pro-apologist forum would have just been more damaging."

Critics of Mormonism are quite often banned from the likes of MADB and apologist generated YouTube videos, pro-apologists forums, etc. Apologists know the damage that valid criticism can cause to the faith of the members. Its all about control on their end. They would manipulate and try to control on this forum if they were allowed to post. Had apologist been allowed here when I first stumbled onto RFM with my head spinning and not knowing which way was even up anymore, it would have made things worse for me.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2019 07:03AM by mikemitchell.

mikemitchell Wrote,


> Had apologist been allowed here when I first stumbled onto RFM with my head spinning and not knowing which way was even up anymore, it would have made things worse for me.

Me too!!!

Nein !

I'd be more inclined to add a sticky directing TBMs and aspiring apologists to the main apologetic websites. There are few things more likely to undermine faith than a thorough perusal of the wisdom posted there.

The short answer is, it's not the purpose of this board. The Mormon church and those representing the viewpoint of the Mormon church have plenty of venues in which to spin their apologetics. This is not one of them.

Their are some reddit forums that might be suitable for people interested in apologetic debate. The /r/Mormon board has a number of forums listed to the right of its landing page that might work.

Hey, guy3, just do a google search for mormon discussions.

I know there are other forums. When I went to those as an apologist they just weren't very active. They didn't do anything for me then. And, most importantly, they didn't really pop up in searches of individual topics. Now you get exmormon and fair websites pop up.

And I think in an apologist section you just moderate it less. It won't be in the general section, and those that are trying to heal can just not go.

Trust me I looked, and there weren't any forums that had both exmormons and apologists. They had their own forums and would ban the other side. And I think that's just sad.

guy3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I think in an apologist section you just moderate it less.

However, an additional section would still use considerable resources. The postings and posters would affect the availability of bandwidth, there would be another huge amount of material to manage and archive and backup. These are all additional costs to the Board.

As I pointed out before, this is a completely non-commercial board with its only support coming from member donations. As I understand it, formerly, there used to be a wealthy ex-mormon who paid the entire costs of maintaining the board, for many years. Now, that is no longer the case and the board relies on those of us here to support it by clicking the "donate" button on the front main page. By proposing an entirely different and additional section for the Board you are proposing to greatly increase the costs, without offering, apparently, to shoulder any of those costs, and also without any support here from those who have posted responses to your suggestions.

>It won't be in the general section, and those that are trying to heal can just not go.

Guy, there are very clear guidelines for this Board, and the respondents to your topic have also been very clear that this is not something any here want except you. Your sentence above implies that you have already planned an execution of your suggestion, implying this is really going to happen. I doubt that is the case.

Perhaps if the other apologist sites are not active, when you start posting on them perhaps they would become more active.

I think everyone here has been extremely respectful of your topic and the response has been very clear. It is very clear that apologists and their discussions are not aligned with the purpose of this board.

Thanks.

Well I won't plan it myself, I'm already out. I'm just trying to help those almost out a helping hand. Apologists are so close to leaving a lot of the time. That's it. I didn't consider the money issues. But that is a consideration.

Maybe its my old missionary tendacies, I just want more out. That's it.

In a way, I would support your suggestion if it were still necessary. But it isn't as if THIS board would have a responsibility to fulfill it, which explains the overwhelming "respect" you see on this thread.

There are a few venues, particularly r/mormon, that are as close to accepting of all perspectives as it's possible to get. Why not tell your Mormon friends that it's a good place to go to defend the faith? Some of them will get caught in the trap of trying to do just a little better next time, and could get addicted to human reasoning and leave the Only True Church. I'd suggest other places, but forums tend toward polarization for strong and pervasive reasons. I can't think of any others right now.

The problem is that those venues don't pop up on google when you email specific subjects. There is a reason they are drawn here, becuase it is often on the first few Good results, and the discussions were on point.

But then they just get rejected and go back to their echo chambers. There are other venues, I looked, but most of them we either not active, or not interested.

Hey guy3, I agree with you while at the same time recognizing the challenges that allowing unrestricted discussion on this forum might create. I am an advocate of open discussion and encourage dialogue between opposing views in particular. Whether in politics, religion, science or history a cross pollination of information and ideas is good. What better way to test the strength of ones position and encounter new information than to put it in front of others and let them challenge it. If there is a credible argument and information I am not aware of I want it brought to my attention - the goal being to win the debate so much as to increase my/our knowledge and understanding and hopefully eventually arrive at or at least closer to the truth.

I recognize the challenges allowing unrestrained discussion would present here. Heated discussions would diminish the unity, others who are recovering from years of indoctrination would be triggered, etc.. Would it diminish the effectiveness of the board in accomplishing its goals of providing a safe place for people to find support and healing? I don't know the answer.

Some of my recovery came from having discussions about the veracity of the church's position with tbm's and realizing I had more knowledge and better answers than they did. It didn't do anything for my relationship with these people though.

I personally would prefer to forgo the safety from encountering triggers and allow free expression. I believe the truth matters, that it can prevail and that we have the stronger position. While censorship may protect it has its down side. In seeking safe places we end up in bubbles and echo chambers where we are protected from having to defend our positions or risk being triggered. It hampers growth and learning.

For such a thing to work, strong and clear ground rules would have to be set in place including termination of those who continually demonstrate a lack of respect.

I don't know how to edit my comments above. I meant to say - the goal "NOT" being to win the debate so much as to increase my/our knowledge and understanding and hopefully eventually arrive at or at least closer to the truth.

I love debate. I think it can really help someone who is strengthening their position to consider ways his argument is wrong. And then as he tries to address those rhetorically it can lead to other concerns. It can often reintrench, but that process of reintrenching can lead to other ideas that are explored.

I saw it with John Dehlin and the other Mormon Answers podcast. They both would address and issue, reintrench, but then a year later there position would often soften. I just want more out, and apologists are so close to leaving they just don't know it.

Felix, if you are a registered board member, and logged in, the "Edit" button should appear automatically on the "Options" bar right below your post or response. It is completely safe and
anonymous to register, and there are benefits to doing so. You can edit your posts, see new responses to previous posts, and report posts that violate board guidelines to the moderators.

Thank you summer, I did something wrong when I tried to register years ago and never tried again. I'll try again but later as I am running out the door to make an appointment right now.

I registered but now I have a small letter f on Felix. Makes me feel less important than I was.

You are not less important! :) For whatever reason, the same thing happened to me when I registered.

I don't know if there's still one of the "software sharpies" (terrific guy who helped fashion this new board) around, but you'll notice some of us do have caps, etc. in our monikers...

Anyway, felix (or Felix), welcome.

Thanks, Cabbie! I've been (lowercase) summer for so long now, it doesn't bother me. Another thought for Felix is that he can also sign his posts and responses as some do, using the capital "F."

I had an uncle Felix. My mom adored her brother. They used to call him "Phil" for whatever reason.

Just isn't going to happen.

Sour grapes and bitter fruit is the currency round these parts.

"sour" & "bitter" - generally red-flag indicators of someone trying to (or wishing to) compensate for Mormon Fragile-Faith Syndrome.

People of genuine faith don't feel a compulsion to justify it, or to engage in histrionics and apologetics. Those with fragile "testimonies" are forever trying to arrest the decay of same, as they trudge along the treadmill to Zion.


Here's wishing you the best of luck in kicking the Mormon Monkey off of your back ...

People here are in recovery from a high-demand faith. If they had gone to a church where you just go for an hour on Sunday, and listen to a sermon, then go home, it might have been a lot easier for them to walk away. And they would not have had any members of their congregations calling them, knocking on their doors, or otherwise continually harassing them. They would not be insulted by the membership of their former faith. "Lazy, offended, wanting to sin." Is that all Mormons can do? Hurl insults? What is wrong with you? Don't you believe in freedom of religion? Or do you just give that lip service?

People here get to choose. They get to decide if they want to be Mormon or not. If they stay in the church, they get to decide the terms on which they stay.

Looks like we have an offended mormon crying persecution, whining because he can't offer up his lame-ass excuses for polygamy, racism and the BOA. (Note to offended mormon: You're *choosing* to be offended. Thus saith the Great Bednar.)

If the church actually had a prophet who could get revelation from god, it wouldn't need sorry FAIR-style apologetics for its "answers." An omniscient god could shut us down instantly and show us the error of our ways, but instead seems to be limited to combining EQ and HP, changing HT/VT to "ministering," and getting in a snit over the name "Mormon."

Such is the almighty power of mormon god.

No - apologetics will never be allowed here. We will upgrade the site, but no apologetics. This is a gross simplification that Mormon apologetics is no different than flat earth society members, holocaust deniers or scientology. They can go elsewhere. We can read their nonsense if we wish on other sites. I have directed many folks to the FAIR website to see how lame their defense of Mormonism is and how they obfuscate reality. There is enough for our admins to do. I am sure concrete zipper fully agrees. An individual freshly out of the cult does not need to have Mormon propaganda shoved in his or her face here. It is often painful as these people are already getting hit by the Mormons in their lives. It would be counter productive. Our emphasis has always been on the newbies.

"They can go elsewhere."


And there is an abundance of faith-promoting sites for the interested party to visit.


RFM is a no-baloney zone - which categorically excludes apologetic blather.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2019 11:06AM by 3X.

Thank you Eric and 3X!

> RFM is a no-baloney zone - which categorically excludes apologetic blather.

Absolutely!!!

Thank you Eric.

Many days there would more of them than those of us who were to recover. It was a madhouse full of apologist drivel and accusations. What a relief when admin finally put a stop to it.

Dan Peterson was the worst. He wrote to my DH and told him to shut me up. When that didn't work, he wrote to other posters urging them to go after me for being so "unfairly negative."

Don't invite them back. They're nothing but trouble.

How long ago was that? When was apologetics allowed?

We've never allowed preachers or apologetics here, but they sneak through from time to time and the results are never pretty.

Internet forums are rarely the proper venue for disputing closely held beliefs, at least if you want to come to a resolution.

This forum will remain an apologist free zone.

CZ (admin)