Greetings!

I've been lurking for quite a while...

Never-Mo that has been meeting with the missionaries as a social evening. We meet at the Church, never at my home, and each session I tell them I'm not going to join the church, so I don't feel that I'm leading them on. My take is that they'd rather beat their heads against the wall talking to me than spend an evening door knocking.

Sometimes they bring in a member to join in on the discussions. Oh My, what I've learned.

I've thought some of what I read here was exaggerated, but no, I find truth in what is said here and no truth in what they are teaching. The members they've brought in have only confirmed what is said here, in their circumstances and actions.

Each session they give me homework to do. Reading some of the BoM or watching a General Conference talk. This week they wanted me to read the Introduction to the BoM with 7 questions in mind. I often give them snarky responses, if I think they can handle it, when they try to push me, this week we have:

[A) My Snarky Reply that I want to give them, and
B) What they want me to say, I think.]


Homework 3-11-19
1) What is the Book of Mormon?
A) Chloroform in Print.
B) Another Testament of JC, in the Americas

2) What was the most important event in the BOM?
A) "And it came to pass." (mentioned more than anything else...)
B) JC Nephites

3) How do we have the BOM today?
A) A magical stone in a hat.
B) JS through The Gift and Power of God

4) What does the BOM have to do with our Religion?
A) Precious Little as to how the rules and doctrines of TSCC are actually practiced/observed
B) Foundation of beliefs.

5) What was the point of God calling witnesses?
A) JS was a wholly unreliable charachter. Nobody (few?) would take him at his word.
B) Special Witnesses of the Truth and Divinity of the BOM

6) What is the promise that comes with reading the BOM?
A) Cognitive Dissonance. More weight upon the shelf.
B) That God will tell you if this church is true.

7) What comes after this promise is fulfilled?
A) Expensive Psychiatric appointments.
B) Utter Amazement, Depression.

Should I just type up my A and B answers and hand it in? :-)

It's the act of meeting with them and not your words that count.

Looks like you have plenty of time to waste.

If you're in need of a social evening, go to the local bar, get a nice rye whiskey, and start talking to people.

Or you can go small claims court and listen to all of the hilarity that goes on and afterwards try to meet some of the people.

Or, hell, just about anything else. A missionary's ability to contribute to a nice evening is restricted to where they came from and what they are planning on doing after their mission.

Your “B” answers prove that you know as much as most members.

Your “A” answers prove that understand more than most members.

I understand why they want to meet with you, but what do you get out of the deal?

I'm also nevermo, and before I married my wife 6 years ago the only thing I knew about Mormonism was that the Osmonds were Mormon.

RfM was one of the first sites I found when I was researching Mormonism to push back against efforts by my wife and the missionaries to convert me. My initial impression of the site was that ex-mos were a little over-the-top due to their anger at the church. However, like you, the more I've experienced Mormonism firsthand and through my wife, I recognize the experiences here as being spot-on.

I have regularly given your [A] answers to all of the questions when asked by the missionaries. The only question I haven't be asked is #7.

When "taking the lessons" from the missionaries, it is very tempting to give them the answers they expect, much like students in school regurgitating information from reading assignments, though they don't really understand subject. That, and the fact that most people are hardwired to not be contentious during polite conversations about beliefs.

However, I have learned from experience with Mormons that you must be very clear and direct that you do not accept what they are telling you about Mormon doctrine and history. Give them an inch and they will take an astronomical unit. I've tried to offer diplomatically worded opinions, but they would repeatedly latch onto something I said and assign to it a significance or meaning I had not intended to make it sound as though I had agreed with them. It would then be twisted into my opposition being me simply "choosing not to believe" when I had already admitted "through my own words" that we were on the same page.

No, the best policy is to simply not talk with Mormons about anything approaching Mormonism. If that can't be avoided, such as being married to a Mormon who regularly invites missionaries over, speak so that there is no doubt that you think the whole thing is bogus. Start out being as polite as you are comfortable being, but don't worry about becoming more assertive in response to their unwillingness to simply accept your opposition to their teachings.

they knocked on our door on saturday. My wife was at work i was taking a nap in the chair and my son was playing a video game. So the 97 pound German Shepard (RuRu as we call him) answered the door for me. they left the front porch pretty quickly.

Missionaries bear their testimonies to convince you they are telling the truth. They are-- they really believe it. But that doesn't make it true.

From my experience leaving the church, I can bear my testimony-- quite deeply and powerfully-- that I know the church is false, and I am so much happier where I am. I don't believe any of the religious canon is the "word of god," and I don't really care what it says past a purely literary standpoint. This typically ends the interview. You could try it. Nothing else will get you anywhere. You could bring up historical problems, doctrinal problems, and any sort of logical contradictions, but they will close their mind to them and you can waste the rest of your life arguing. Use their own weapon, the only weapon they will pay attention to: Bear testimony and walk away.

I've been completely out for almost two years now, but many years before as a non-believer. My nevermo wife and I still take the missionary's call (every few months after new transfers) and invite them over for dinner. We actually enjoy it. I like to cook, she loves entertaining, and we both like distractions after putting our little one to bed. Also, it doesn't look like anyone from the ward obeys the Feed the Missionaries spreadsheet, so they're quite grateful to have a home cooked meal and are usually on their best behavior. Plus they get to report back some positive stats.

We ask them about them. They ask about us. We try to weave in current events, history (the historical, non-white, anti-Roman rebel Jesus is always a fun one), philosophy, and science into the discussion. Their cinderella clocks usually strike before they have time to go whip out their tablet computers and do a lesson plan. We avoid being confrontational unless they insist a specific topic, but that's rare.

What's the goal? They see the wine rack. They see the beer dispensar. They see the espresso machine. They see my wife's tatoos. We're in a privileged position to showcase our happy little life and close enough in age where we can actually bond over pop culture.

If we can extend a small level of kindness and comfort that they're likely not receiving from their MP and ward members during this possibly crappy time in their lives, perhaps it will plant a seed of doubt as to whether Satan is really lurking in the second bedroom of my apartment.

My wife enjoys the cooking and entertaining for both of us. The missionaries are welcome in our home only because my wife wants them there. As long as they don't try to convert me, I'm happy that my wife is happy that they are there.

For my part, I try to keep the conversation as far from religion as I can while enjoying a cold beer. Elder Redneck, who just transferred out of the ward last week, was one of my favorites because he eagerly joined in on my conversational diversions. He even told me a couple times how much he enjoyed visiting us because he could just relax and be himself without feeling he had to be on his "best" behavior. He was never disrespectful or discourteous, mind you, he just felt constricted by being a "proper missionary" around most of the ward members.

On the night the Elder Redneck came by to say "bye", his companion joked that he is becoming a little too much like Elder Redneck and may have to watch himself with Elder Redneck's replacement (fresh out of MTC) until he's broken him in.

Corrupting Mormon missionaries, one Elder at a time.

Levant,

I think it is nice of you to invite the missionaries for dinner. The misshies were nicer to me than anyone in the ward.

I think the OP is being rather cruel in making appointments with them just to argue. They’re just volunteers as levant says, maybe trying to get through a crappy time of their life. At least bring pizza or something to be a little kinder to these young kids. It’s not their fault the BoM is BS.

"This week they wanted me to read the Introduction to the BoM"

Leaving aside the inappropriateness of a pair of 18-year-old high school graduates assigning homework to a grown adult…

The missionaries likely aren't aware that the Introduction has been changed since its, well, introduction. The last sentence of the second paragraph currently reads:

"After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians."

When the Intro was first published in 1981, that sentence read:

"After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians."

The church was forced to make that change because there has never been one shred of favorable BOM evidence discovered, despite the book's claims of mighty civilizations from sea to sea. All evidence, from every field of science (genetics, linguistics, metallurgy, etc.), has been against the BOM. As a result, the church no longer talks about "Lamanites" much, and is trying to minimize it to the extent it can.

This just proves what a colossal waste of time church missionary work has become. I don't fault the people that may be playing games, but it is up to the missionaries to know better. And obviously they don't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2019 03:04PM by messygoop.

Find an empty whiskey bottle and fill it with apple juice for the next time they are over. They probably won’t question why you have to keep it in the fridge.

They don’t know the worst thing they can do is convert people, so I wouldn’t worry about wasting their time. You might worry about wasting yours. Where they’re at mentally, I don’t think you can get through to them.

My continual response to things like this is
"WHAT'S IN IT FOR ME?"
Nothin'for me? I ain't interested!!!

Cheryl:
"They assume if you meet with them, you'll likely join.
It's the act of meeting with them and not your words that count."

I agree, but, Some of the companionships have ditched me when they realize I'm NOT going to get dunked. These two guys like to meet with me on P-Day as they have to go out after 6pm and work. They'd rather talk to me than go door knocking on P-Day.

Jacob:
"If you're in need of a social evening, go to the local bar, get a nice rye whiskey, and start talking to people."

I don't drink anymore, so bars are not my thing, unless I'm being the designated driver. P.S. a 12 year-old single malt Scotch beats the heck outta most Rye Whiskeys :-)

CrispingPin:
"but what do you get out of the deal?"
I like talking to and hanging out with younger folks. I spent 25 years managing a fast food place, staffed with nothing but teenagers, and I miss interacting with them.
I also get the chance to talk things religious, that are not appropriate in other social settings. Jacob above suggested go to a bar... Can't talk religion with the folks at the Leatherneck Club (Used to go there to watch Sons of Anarchy!) :-)

Mel:
"I think the OP is being rather cruel in making appointments with them just to argue."

Oops, I gave a wrong impression. Might still be cruel, I guess. I do it for the interaction with younger folks, but not just to argue with them. I enjoy the conversations with them, and if they don't like me, they can drop me, as several companionships have done. (Sister Missionaries dropped me like a hot potato after one meeting when they got assigned to teach me!) I think these guys enjoy our meetings as much as I do. I know they've heard stories about me, they've said so. And they've told me that they've read all of the comments on the cards about me. Last time they asked me why I let the "Baptismal date" that was set go by. That killed a lot of time as I explained to them why their brothers elders will write anything to get in good with the ZL or MP. :-)

Arguing with fanatics is unproductive. I voice my objections, and then drop it. One of the Mishies said "Church Doctrine does not change" After I quit snickering, I said "have you got a lot to read about the church. Let's just agree to disagree on this point." And we moved on. I in no way want to do anything harmful to them, nudge them a bit here and there, but that's about it. P.S. I have invited these Mishies to go out to lunch or dinner, but they won't go. Don't know why, as they've been companions with others that have gone out to dinner with me every week. Best I can do is give them a Slim Jim beef stick or cookies when we meet :-)

outta the cult:
"The missionaries likely aren't aware that the Introduction has been changed..."
I have intended on bringing that up with them when we meet tonight. We've already been to "White and Delightsome" to no avail, went right over their heads.

To everyone else kind enough to write a reply:
THANK YOU! I value everyone's opinions and observations. I may not act/react in the same way that you would, but I learn from all things written on this board. Years ago, you guys saved me from seriously considering joining the church :-)

Playing cat and mouse games with pathetic mormon mishies is a poor excuse for a social life.

Take a cooking class.
Join a book discussion group.
Go hiking in the woods.
Volunteer at the local elementary school.
Sign up at a soup kitchen.
Take a college class at night.
Check out a stack of books at the library.

What you're doing to fill your time doesn't help anyone and smacks of meaness.

Mormons like to play games with "investigators." It's dishonest and hurtful. Never mormons should know better since they don't have cultists directing their thoughts and actions.

Klsmd,

Thank you for writing and explaining a little more. I am glad to know you do offer lunch or dinner. :)

I enjoyed sharing meals with them and talking, it is nice to be around young enhusiastic people eager to talk. Now that I left the church I don’t answer any calls from them and socializing with them is the only thing I will miss. But if you truly don’t believe and truly don’t intend to join, I do not really see the point of spending time with them.