Hi everyone, I just needed to vent about an incident that happened to our TBM son in law last weekend. He was at their stake center in the evening playing church basketball. We weren't there to see this. Apparently it happened during the last 20 or 30 seconds of their game. Our son in law was holding the ball and this guy was trying to take it from him. This creep then used his elbow full force down on our SIL's hand and said "that's what you get!" It was intentional and it broke our SIL's hand. We saw the xray and one of the bones was sticking through the skin. He has to have surgery and have a metal plate and pins. Our SIL talked with a judge that he knows (the judge is TBM) and also spoke with the stake prez and bishop. The stake prez and bishop talked with everyone who was there and no one saw it happen. Our SIL wanted to press criminal charges because this was assault plain and simple. The judge, stake prez, and bishop all said that it would be useless to involve the police because he doesn't have a case. they said he would have a case if this had happened before or after the game. I say wrongo! But it's our SIL's word against all of them. IMO, it's a matter of TSCC circling the wagons to protect it at all costs. So infuriating!

Well, when the people you ask, all belong to the same club, you're going to get the same response. Go to the police station and ask for a supervisor. But, make sure he's telling the truth. BTW, did you ask why the kid meant by "That's what you get"? Was he fouling intentionally?

absolutely make the bad guy pay for what he did, the person's hand is broken!!!

Step One: file a police report in the appropriate municipality. If you're not sure, call around and ask. Bring in x-ray images and medical reports. Any video? If you have any witness(es) who will support you, provide complete contact information about them. Be sure you get the name of whoever oversees investigations there (sergeant-detective, lieutenant-detective, whatever) and get the contact info of the detective who is assigned. Introduce yourself, keep in touch. (Hope he's not LDS!)

Step two: get a lawyer. You want to explore both criminal and civil procedures.

Step three: investigate league regulations and procedures

Be sure to keep all originals, give away copies of documents. Takes notes while you talk to people, and keep them orderly.

Good luck. A possible solution might be monetary compensation with the proviso that you drop criminal charges. Make a big stink about this, and you might get results more to your liking but would certainly put your family on the dirt list all over your son's ward and stake. Consider contacting the assignment editor(s) of your local media.

I'd be very surprised if someone did NOT catch what transpired on a smartphone camera. Please check and see who you know was there who is willing to share with you the video and sound of what occurred. That would be the evidence you need to bring a case.

Then I'd sue the bastard who broke the bone. A civil suit, and press criminal charges because he had mens rea when he did what he did.

Because it happened on church property you may have a case against the church especially if it does nothing to protect your SIL from the predatory behavior of one of its members then it is complicit in the crime or the tort.

There's less proof required for a tort action than a criminal action - your SIL may still consider suing the bloke under a civil recovery for punitive/pain and suffering - it will be circumstantial if there is no evidence other than what occurred and oral testimonies. If the other guy is also a liar, then well it'll be he said, he said.

Based on what you described, it was no accident.

Some players seem to think that basketball is a contact sport.

One of the players must have seen what happened. It's not often that a player's hand is broken from being elbowed so it must have been a very violent act that couldn't have gone unnoticed. Were they just practicing or was it a game with a ref? Surly the ref must have noticed.

If your son thinks it was deliberate then for sure he should press charges even if nothing comes of it. In the very least it will scare the guy who hurt him.

Hopefully this will be the one thing that offends your son out of the church. It will hopefully open his eyes to how the cult operates.

All of the eyes would've been on the one holding the ball. So I don't buy that no one heard or saw what happened besides your SIL. They are all lying as you say. If anyone there is a true friend, honest, worth his weight in gold, then he or she'll come forward and tell what really happened to be a witness.

Your SIL didn't deserve what happened on the court. Nor what happens off the court. This will be a wakeup call for him that 'all is not well in Zion.'

One of my half-nephews played football for BYU-Provo on a full scholarship when he became seriously injured at one of the games, causing him to lose his full scholarship and forcing him to withdraw from college. Not only that but BYU did not help him with any of his medical bills either from his football injury. He was literally on his own, put out to pasture.

He died a few years after that on a construction job. He fell ill one day and needed to go rest. He went to rest in a work trailer. When someone went to check on him he had passed. He left a widow and five stepchildren he'd adopted as his own. By the time he met and married her was post-BYU. He must've figured he wasn't going to marry or have a family but there she was and those kids became his kids. Until he met his sudden end.

No thanks to BYU or TSCC. They didn't care what came of him after he was of no more use to their football team because of his injury he got on the field. They were ruthless. No compassion whatsoever. He was the only one of eight children of my half-sister who pre-deceased her. I am certain it was because of his football injury and not being able to receive adequate medical care for it at the time that led to his untimely demise.

How terrible!

from a legal standpoint, it's very important if SIL went to doc/ER immediately; no other reasonable explanation for the amount of force required for that injury!


previous post about 'church rules' is also relevant. 'of course' they'll want to hush-whitewash, but it's their property, their responsibility to implement & ENFORCE safety; inside & outside!

Thank you everybody for your advice and stories. I consider you all to be friends even though we haven't actually met. I'm going to tell our SIL that he should go to the police and press charges. He did go to the ER and they put (I guess you would call it) a temporary cast on his hand until his surgery this week. There had to be someone who saw what happened, but I think anyone who did see it was, shall we say, strongly convinced to say they didn't. You're right; hopefully this can get him started to think twice about TSCC. I told our daughter that a decent person,no matter what religion or no religion they are, wouldn't resort to behavior like this; especially in a non-professional, impromptu little game.

Church ball brings the worst out of people. I was at a game in Boise, Idaho that a fight broke out and that fight grew to a full on rumble. Someone actually called the cops because of it.

Hey if you want to destroy the church get more members playing church basketball. They will tear each other to shreds. Mormons are plenty nasty when they do business with each other as well. They may call each other brother on Sunday but they will brawl the hell out of each other on the court and while negotiating some kind of business deal. Haha! Seen it plenty.

of the Church.

Growing up in the church, I had on many occasions been invited to participate in church basketball tournaments. Every time I did, I ended up regretting it. It was so ugly. There were always at least about 3 or 4 guys who, I swear, were constantly fantasizing that they were NBA stars in every game. They would hog the ball, curse anytime anything didn't go their way, blame others for their mistakes.... Like I said it was ugly. I couldn't see any hint of the classic notions of "sportsmanship" and "fair play" (ostensibly the whole purpose behind the church basketball program).

Not long before I left the church I had gotten my first serious job in the real world. This was in the eastern U.S. and there were no Mormons in the office I worked in. One day I was invited to participate in a friendly interoffice basketball tournament. Remembering all the negative experiences I had had in church basketball, I hesitated (thinking it would just be a waste of time). But being a newbie, I decided I'd better go ahead and be sociable.

I was literally shocked when I actually played with these people. It was night and day. Many of them were actually much better players than anyone I had ever played with in church basketball. But the thing that shocked me was how civilized, friendly, inclusive and...just plain decent...EVERYONE was. Fair play was the rule of the day. If it looked like anyone wasn't getting enough playing time, someone (often some of the best players) would volunteer to trade places with whoever was on the bench. Mistakes were greeted with "you'll get it next time" and other words of encouragement.

I could go on.

But that just stuck with me for days afterward. I couldn't get over the "what's wrong with this picture?" aspect of it all.

Based on everything I had been conditioned to think growing up as a Mormon, it all should have been the other way around. The evil, benighted "gentiles" should have been the vicious, cheating, cursing, selfish basketball players and the Mormons should have been the kind, generous, fair and honest players. But the reality was totally opposite the expectations.

Does your S-I-L have any notion as to the extent of the meaning associated with the, "That's what you get!" comment?

If the culprit was meting out rough justice, what might have been your SIL's evil doing?

Getting a handle on this could be important to establish why the culprit felt this was a tit for tat situation. A jury needs something in which to sink its teeth in order to find the culprit responsible and thus liable for damages. Otherwise the culprit will simply play it off as just one of those things that everyone (in Utah) knows happens in church ball. Gotta give the jury motive!

Police Report as soon as possible. Will put one and all on notice.

Want to bet the one who assaulted him has had problems in the past with anger in the games? Also, if Police start investigating some will be reminded of penalties about lying to law enforcement.

If Bishop and Stake types want to get involved - they can write checks for medical payments for him. Anything else - have them put it in writing - and if any of you talk with them make sure to record the conversations. If in a one party State, no need to give notice. If in a two party State - tell them and start recording.

Good luck with it.

If there are any out of pocket expenses your son would rather not have to pay (as in not covered by available medical insurance) he should ask the perpetrator for his homeowners or renters insurance policy, as in the name of the carrier and the policy number. The perpetrator caused the injury and a case could be made that his policy would have to respond on his behalf, simply on the basis that the policyholder was negligent.

Oh, sure, there will be the 'assumption of the risk' defense, but when's the last time a broken bone happened in church ball? If he can the ball rolling in this direction, then when the insurance company contacts him, he can raise the stakes by asking about compensatory damages. Of course, the job of the claims adjuster is to do whatever he can to make the claim go away. But if you can get that far, I'd be happy to give my totally free and thus extremely valuable advice! Last I checked, my email was public...

And if the perpetrator doesn't want to cooperate, would you, if you were on a jury, wonder why? Your son has nothing to lose trying this out.

there's a slight chance that insurance will want to recover for an intentional act.

in most civil proceedings, the other party can be compelled to testify (but might go 5th amendment).

Also (doubt will develop to this) witnesses CAN BE compelled to testify.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2019 09:13PM by GNPE.

All sorts of injuries happen on sports fields when tempers get a little frayed. Why rush to litigate and blame the Church? If these guys are in the same stake or ward or whatever, maybe the perpetrator could be asked to apologise and/or contribute to expenses. Police have got better things to do than to determine whether one guy meant to the break the hand of another with his elbow in a tussle for the ball.

elderolddog! I was so glad to see your post! Yes, you do give extremely valuable advice and a great sense of humor, too!

that would have been recording things. They're so inexpensive these days that a lot of churches and schools have them running all the time. If they did have them, it may be worthwhile to get a look at what was recorded and backed up on their digital drive.

TSCC would avoid them like the plague because it doesn't want to be caught with its proverbial pants down.

If its liability it wants to avoid a CCTV camera is the last thing it wants or needs to be an objective eye witness to what went down. It doesn't lie, unlike the brethren to cover their asses.

Because of liability issues, activities end up getting tabled for the simple fact TSCC doesn't want to have to square off in court over injury lawsuits - or make settlements. Its legal department is strictly sharks, not saints.

Plus TSCC is so cheap it can't even afford a cleaning staff. CCTV would not be in its budget, except for perhaps Temple Square, the temples, & its shopping district.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2019 03:36AM by Amyjo.