Maybe the one thing Mormonism offers, though at high cost, is a belief in miracles. It seems to me that miracles are just a part of life, but only if you believe in them. If you want miraculous things to happen, you have to believe that they will. I’m afraid collapsing shelves ruin that, which is a shame because it should be a basic principle of living.

Existence itself is a miracle, perhaps a miracle of belief. Big Bang cosmology supplies a “how” but not a “why”. Even if consciousness is an aspect of matter, what about before the kaboom? A thing of pure virtue with no beginning and no end, how can it be? And yet here we are. The living miracle on a big blue marble.

I’m satisfied to see Mormonism digging its own grave. I believe in a better world, lots of us do. Maybe that belief will kill Mormonism. That’s miracle enough for me.

Of course. I just don't believe any god or gods make them happen*. I also believe in gravity. Gods don't make that happen either.

* - the exception is that the Three Nephites occasionally show up individually in the dark of night to fix flat tires on secluded sections of highway near Fillmore, UT.

Yes, I believe in miracles, because I've been the recipient of some in my lifetime.

Do I feel special because of that? No, not really. I feel blessed because of them. I recall receiving them as a result of prayers either I had said or were prayed for me during various times in my life. So yes, I believe in a Creator who loves us. Cares for us. And even hears our prayers. We may not get the answers to the prayers we want to hear, but we are loved nonetheless and there is something or someone that sees the big picture for us that we cannot.

Especially if coincidence is involved.

No. But I believe miraculous things happen--things that are highly unlikely or almost improbably and that bring very welcome consequences. I've certainly been on the receiving end of some of those in my lifetime, one very very miraculous and serendipitous event just recently.

And many of us here know how miraculous it is that we were able to divest ourselves of Mormonism, having been raised in the brainwashed worlds we were born into. God, I can't imagine having had to deal with the family issues I've had to deal with if I was trying to do it from a mormon perspective.

But those things happen. They happen to mormons, they happen to Atheists. I live in the Bible Belt. It's almost worse, or at least competes with Mormon world as far as the "it's a miracle from God" nonsense. No. It's something that seems miraculous. It is not "A" miracle. If it happened, it's a miraculous happening. And I have yet to see something that people declare is totally unexplainable, actually be unexplainable. It's just something they don't want to accept the explanation for.

Just like another "S" word----Serendipity Happens!

You can claim the angels did it or the God of your choice did it, when the unexplainable good fortune lands in front of you out of nowhere. Serendipity really isn't interested in your explanation. It just keeps doing what it does.

If your bush is burning and you didn't see the neighbor kid running away with matches, then why not call it a visit from God and be done with it?

I still just put butter on it and eat it even when my toast looks like Jesus. However, that is a signal to use the fig jam, not the orange marmalade.

Besides, the supposed God's can't even run a church after thousands of years, and I doubt could even run a bath. So who thinks they are lining up our stars just for us?


Good things happen when opportunity meets preparation.

No. I believe that god likes me best so he lets all the bad stuff happen to everyone else. :) /s

Every day is a miracle. Perspective my friend.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2019 03:49PM by Amyjo.

If you can get one, they are good to have! It would even be better to be able to schedule one.

Do I think God is involved? No.

YES!!! Yes, a thousand times, YES!!!

There have been two occasions in my life when I did NOT have to beg for sex!! On one of those occasions, I even got breakfast the next morning! That relationship had real potential, but her seeing eye dog just never took a liking to me.

Do I feel special? No, and I like to brag about how mundane and unspecial I am! Look at me being humble!

But seriously... The Bell-Shaped Curve that we use to represent the mundaneness of life, "_∩_" (this is as close as I could get to representing it using the MS character map) is an excellent representation of life its own self. At the far left are all the horribly bad things that can happen and at the far right are all the good things. The two ends only impact a tiny percentage of the population. The vast majority, including me, spend our lives in the middle...

When people talk about "miracles", which are extremely rare events and occupy the far right of the continuum, I wonder what a good word would be for the events representing the far left of the continuum, such as the new husband who had his testicles accidentally removed by his bride on their honeymoon when she was trying to show him a funny card trick. What's the opposite of a "miracle"? Debacle? It fits as an antonym and even uses the same last four letters. But as commonly used, I don't think it carries the necessary ill repute.

So, yeah, what's the opposite of a "miracle"? Because based on the Bell-Shaped curve, they happen with the same regularity as "miracles."

How could someone have numerous "miracles" take place, believe they come from ghawd, know how rare even one "miracle" is, and not feel just a tiny bit special? "C'mon!! Look at me, how I'm just a regular guy with a history of 'miracles'", when all around the guy, everyone else gets zip, nada, zilch.

But life is a game of multiple rounds, not single rounds. If a person lives a good long time, she will have had tens of thousands of experiences. The "average" bell curve will look more or less as you describe, but each individual's bell curve will be somewhat different. Indeed, there will be some people whose curves are five- or six sigmas in the miraculous, or conversely, the debaculous direction.

A gentleman of cynical inclination may note that the extreme cases are exactly as frequent as one would expect in a random distribution, but to someone who has enjoyed an extraordinarily miraculous life things will look different. So I ask, which is more appealing: thinking that sheer luck delivered the more-favorable-than-average outcome or positing the existence of a supernatural being that plays favorites?

Couldn't the ability, or the need, to believe that one's good fortune is not fortuitous but rather deserved itself be considered a miraculous roll of the dice?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Couldn't the ability, or the need, to believe that
> one's good fortune is not fortuitous but rather
> deserved itself be considered a miraculous roll of
> the dice?

How many of us believe we don't deserve to live?

That is an implication of what I was trying to say. There are some who feel they are God's favorites, others who feel they are damned from the start. Neither of those positions is rationally correct, but humans are not rational beings.

Perhaps it is genetics or our early childhood development that determines how we interpret, or imagine, patterns as we get older. That interpretation, that emotional gloss on reality, is very important in determining how we view fate.

Empirical rationality is a difficult standard by which to live. It takes a helluva lot of courage.

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> her seeing eye dog just never took a liking to me.

Woof!

Ha!

It all depends on what your definition of miracle is. I'm amazed we haven't started WW III and have blown ourselves back to the cave yet.

Anyways I like the concept of miracles and I always liked this song:

https://youtu.be/7m8izf-oXY4

Wow! Thanks for that! I had forgotten about this song and how good it is. Much appreciated!

rocomop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow! Thanks for that! I had forgotten about this song and how good it is. Much appreciated!

Me too! Great song. Nothing half as good is around now.

Not since the 1980 US Olympic Hockey game against the Russians. That was my kind of miracle.

If defined as coincidence or very unlikely then Yes . if defined as going against the laws of nature or some diety intervening the No .

No.

What does it take to make a miracle? Only heaven knows. The world wasn't created in a vacuum, and neither was the cosmos.

What does it take to be a miracle? I look around me and see the miraculous in everything under the sun. It's all around us. If you can touch it, see it, breathe it, feel it that is a miracle of creation.

The infinite is within and without. That is why the soul is essential to our post-mortem existence. That's the part of ourselves we do not get to renegotiate or fix when we leave this life for the next. The essence of who we are will be made manifest in our destiny.

That's part of the journey. We may not have asked for it, but we are along for the ride. The pot doesn't ask the clay, "Clay, why did you make me into a pot?" Likewise the clay doesn't ask the potter, why did he choose the clay to be the vessel?

But the soul, the eternal flame, doesn't ask. It's endless. Like the circle of life. It knows its home, the source. There is no judgment. It just seeks sanctuary.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What does it take to make a miracle? Only heaven
> knows. The world wasn't created in a vacuum, and
> neither was the cosmos.
>
> What does it take to be a miracle? I look around
> me and see the miraculous in everything under the
> sun. It's all around us. If you can touch it, see
> it, breathe it, feel it that is a miracle of
> creation.
>
> The infinite is within and without. That is why
> the soul is essential to our post-mortem
> existence. That's the part of ourselves we do not
> get to renegotiate or fix when we leave this life
> for the next. The essence of who we are will be
> made manifest in our destiny.
>
> That's part of the journey. We may not have asked
> for it, but we are along for the ride. The pot
> doesn't ask the clay, "Clay, why did you make me
> into a pot?" Likewise the clay doesn't ask the
> potter, why did he choose the clay to be the
> vessel?
>
> But the soul, the eternal flame, doesn't ask. It's
> endless. Like the circle of life. It knows its
> home, the source. There is no judgment. It just
> seeks sanctuary.


I am in awe!

Set to the right music, this paean would make a great weight loss aid.

Everything is a miracle! It's all about the proper attitude!! Think positive and all your ills are cured and your bills are paid! Yay ghawd, who maketh all the miracles that cluterth our lives!

why not be writing for Hallmark. They eat this stuff up.

Playing fast and loose with the word "miracle" could sell millions of cards. You could get so rich!

But I sort of like reality. Attributing everything to a divine agency that has never been proven to exist, for which there is no evidence, who loves some and leaves others to starve, is "fantasy," or at best hypothetical, and both words also have their own specific definitions in a dictionary in case you are interested.

A miracle is that which violates the physical laws of the universe.
Same thing as magic.

Since the beginning of this year, my family and me have been going through some scary physical problems (I guess you could call them "trials". I had to make a trip to the ER and was told there that I got there just in time; it sounded like if we had waited a day or two, it would've been too late. Then we've had other things happening, but I still believe in miracles. the human body is a miracle in itself: just your heart alone is a wonderous thing. It does enough work in 12 hours to lift a 65-ton tank one foot off the ground.It pumps blood through about 100,000 miles of blood vessels. This distance is equal to five round trips between New York and Sydney. All the work that the heart does and yet, it only weighs a little more than 1/2 pound.IMO, this and many other things couldn't just happen merely by chance.

Much of the 'miraculous' work the body does is the result of good ol' trial and error, via the mostly blind process of evolution. While many of us, myself included, are extremely grateful for what our bodies do for us, the fact that one possesses a body is sometimes NOT worthy of praise.

Forgive me now for becoming trite and tedious: Attitude is Everything! The manner in which you seem to have responded to your trials this year denotes a good attitude; others might not be so positive, and there would be those who would understand the lack of enthusiasm.

I think it's fair to let people use the word miracle when their particular situation allows them to apply the word. But I don't think that calling EVERYTHING a miracle, and thereby heaping praise on both the perceived Creator and the ever so humble servant, is at all useful in the real world. Or at least in my real world.

Of course, people will have differing opinions, which automatically makes them idiots! (j/k!)

Mysteries, not miracles.

+1 Mystery One word that says it all.


Isn't considering any inexplicable good fortune--mysteries-- to be from some loving god who looks after just you to be just another default position---an automatic preferable feel good assumption that makes one special? Before any evidence is considered or a reasonable explanation for the good fortune is searched for?


Mystery is such a wonderful word. I worry that dictionaries are going the way of rotary dial phones.

I believe in Herb Brooks.

So do I..............

The dedication at the end of the movie with Kurt Russell says, "He never saw it, he lived it." I would add that he was responsible for it (the "miracle" in 1980).

I know, the team was based in Mpls leading up to the games. We had tickets to watch all the lead up games at Met Center. Plus he coached my Gophers to the NCAA's for a number of years.

Einstein loved reality so much he was grounded in miraculous thinking.

"There are only two ways to live your life: as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle." He chose to believe the latter.

It turned out for him extremely well, and the future of science as we know it.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>"There are only two ways to live your life: as though nothing is a miracle, or as though everything is a miracle."

Great stuff, Amy! Thanks for this!!!

to walk my dogs, I thought this thread was "do you believe in angels."

A friend shared on fb that our pets are angels.

They're my little miracles. They keep me going.

My kids are miracles as far as I'm concerned. Who thought I could actually carry 2 children and deliver them.

My life has been not a miracle. It's a miracle I'm still alive.

I'd also say that the fact that after 27 years, the guy I wanted to marry came back into my life, I think that's a miracle.

But I've had the good with the bad. And there are many times I wonder "How the hell did I get here? This is NOT what I had planned."

It is SO GOOD to see ELDEROLDDOG posting.

Yes!

Your checks are in the mail.

Amyjo is having the vapors!!!

I agree with the OP, and others, who believe that life and everything we know is miraculous. Beautifully written, people!

I think it's a mistake to depend on miracles from God. That leads to defeatist thinking. Valuable energy is wasted on prayers, rituals, chants, donating money, etc., instead of working towards real goals. Talking about the heart, my cousin was a heart surgeon, and "miraculously" saved lives, after spending half his life learning how to do this.

To give credit to "God" and miracles deprives people of a sense of purpose, accomplishment, satisfaction and (yes, even) PRIDE. Whenever something miraculous happens in my life, it can be explained in the chain of events preceding it--often over a period of years. It's a miracle I'm alive today, and am here in my lovely home-office, writing on a computer, on the world-wide internet, watching my grandchildren play in the apple tree outside my window. I was almost murdered, by my RM ex-husband, at BYU, before any of my children came into existence. Between then and now has been a lifetime of hard work, going against Mormon prejudices and blame, fighting against people who stole from me, overcoming two life-threatening illnesses, working in spite of the pain, focusing on LOVE, keeping a positive attitude, and focusing on those glorious little moments that keep us happy. (I didn't invent the internet or computers, of course--most "miracles" are shared, collectively.)

It wasn't like--boom--suddenly I'm living the dream.

Calling the US hockey victory over Russia a "miracle" doesn't give enough credit to the team's hard work, lifetimes of training, overcoming setbacks and outside discouragement, and talent that went into the win--plus the positive energy from the spectators. A "miracle" can be taken apart and analyzed, just like everything else. There's always the unexplained random "luck" factor, but that is only a tiny part of the whole "miracle."

Babs, this is a very interesting topic! Thanks!

Done, I salute your toast with fig jam!

Elder Old Doggie,

Thinking about your bell curve, and 'debacles' v 'miracles'....

does the universe even out, a debacle for every miracle? Does my miracle mean disaster for another? and vice versa?

Someone I talked to yesterday insisted the universe is 'fair'...for every gift, something is taken away, somewhere, somehow to even things out.

I would like to think so. So far, I think I've gotten the debacles and someone is living well off my 'evened-out' miracles!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 03:47PM by mel.

mel Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> Elder Old Doggie,
>
> Thinking about your bell curve, and 'debacles' v
> 'miracles'....
>
> does the universe even out, a debacle for every
> miracle? Does my miracle mean disaster for
> another? and vice versa?
>
> Someone I talked to yesterday insisted the
> universe is 'fair'...for every gift, something is
> taken away, somewhere, somehow to even things
> o
>
> I would like to think so. So far, I think I've
> gotten the debacles and someone is living well off
> my 'evened- out' miracles!


Ms. Mel, an illustration of how the Bell Shaped Curve 'works' can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUSKTk9ENzg Turn off the sound and just watch the machine in action: all the BBs enter at one point and then randomly (hahaha! Not really, ghawd is controlling each BB, right?) bounces hither and yon before finally coming to rest.

The notion of the bell-shaped curve exists because every time this experiment is carried out, the distribution is the same, if you use sufficient BBs.

It's my perspective that one may think of him or herself as one of those BBs. You're all excited to start your journey and when you start to drop, you can assume that you'll wind up in one of the four center columns, simply on the basis of the odds. But ya just don't know!! Debacles on the left, miracles on the right! While the majority of us might hit one the associated pegs on the way down, most of us wind up in the middle.

Lot's Wife, that biotch, doesn't want to accept that her whole life can be portrayed with just one BB drop! No, she wants a do over, like every morning, or something. But ultimately it doesn't matter, so I'm going to forgive her temerity because she's always been a 'Toujours l'audace' kind o' broad and knowing her has been a touch of the right side.

The point to the Bell Shaped Curve, in my estimation, is to illustrate that nothing is certain, and those good things, way to the right, and bad things, way to the left, can happen to anyone and there will be some who will at their deaths be living the dream and some who will rush to meet death because of how poopy their lives are.

There is a lovely randomness to being a human being! There simply are no guarantees.

Also, Albert Einstein's saying about "there's only two ways to live your life.." That's another Hallmark card moment and has nothing to do with reality. It's an artificial sentiment. Artificial sentiments are those that are not a product of evolution, forged by the need to survive. And if he wants to argue the point with me, I'm happy to oblige.

Everyone loves a good platitude on occasion. My favorite is:

"Live each moment like it’s your last."

Gasping for air as your mind descends into darkness.

"Make every kiss the first one!"

"Love harder, love faster, love longer...use Trojans!"

"Make everything a miracle, with Love brand Mayonaise!"

"Living longer, dinger donger, happy farmer!"


They're just words, folks, and some people consider some words 'prettier' than others and then set out to try to milk them for all they can, which is pretty hard, given that words are empty of meaning until we fill them ourselves.

YOLO Please, will everyone stop saying YOLO.

And since we're on the subject of Bee-itches. The only saying I like is about that from the seventies.

Life's a Bee-itch and then you die.

If you follow that, then in contrast each day is beautiful.

And yes, I was referring to apian stings.

So how does someone use French appropriately and then misspell the word "biyatch?" A mass of contradictions, that Elder O'Dawg.

On a different topic, I was once studying in what some might deem a "shithole country" and was introduced to the Hallmark people. They literally had poor Western students write the blurbs for the cards they were going to print and sell in non-shithole-countries (NSC). It was a good covfefe; we chose our hours and were paid the local equivalent of about $25 an hour. On second thought perhaps they even printed the cards in that SC, then exported the final product back to the US and other NSCs.

Anyway, I tried to write some pretty good messages and was promptly told not to do so. The printed words were not to overshadow the inevitable "Happy Second Birthday, Grandson" or "See, I remembered Valentines Day!" So dumbing down I learned, dumbing down I did.

The man from whom I learned the art of pablum later went on to fame and fortune in Washington, where he grew Sean Penn hair, wrote press releases for powerful pols, and rose to vertiginous heights. It was miraculous.









*Okay, okay. That last paragraph didn't really happen--and therein lies the true miracle!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 06:02PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So how does someone use French appropriately and then misspell the word "biyatch?" ''

Lottie, I think the correct spelling is banned.....correctly according to the Oxford English Dictionary, it would have an "O" in there....

On the other hand your descriptor of the country sailed by, so there's just no accounting!

:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 06:18PM by mel.

elderolddog Wrote:

> There is a lovely randomness to being a human being! There simply are no guarantees.

This is a good way to look at it. I liked the link to the machine, that was amazing. I am spending the rest of the day being content with my lot in the random ball-bearing slot of life.

:)

The implication that it is superior to live your life as if everything is a miracle is too sugary.

You can live your life believing everything is a miracle. You can live your life believing Mormonism is true. You can life your life believing your glass is half full. I like my glass with just enough room to add gin.

However, living your life as if nothing is a miracle tends to let you appreciate the beauty of what is and be inspired to just "do it yourself."

And Einstein was wrong. There are not only two ways to live your life. You CAN live your life as if some things are miracles/mysteries and some things aren't. It doesn't have to be either/or. That isn't rocket science but it is all relative. :)

Here's hoping your disagreement with Amyjo's Einsteinian aphorism survives longer than mine did!

This is all so exciting I'm having the vapors!

I know in surprises, surprising things happen all the time.

But I reject any supernatural explanation of a surprise.

http://skepdic.com/littlewood.html

"Mathematician John Littlewood (1885-1977) calculated that a typical person would experience about one miracle a month during his or her lifetime. He defined a miracle as something deemed to have special significance and occurring with a probability of one in a million. He based his calculation on assuming that the typical person is awake and alert about eight hours a day and that events occur at the rate of about one per second. (For those who will do the math, you actually need about 35 days to experience one million events at the rate of one per second. But this is miracle math, so we must cut Littlewood some slack.)"

Would the same odds exist for experiencing 'special pain, defeat or ignominy'?

Because that pretty much seems about right for my life.

rocomop Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would the same odds exist for experiencing 'special pain, defeat or ignominy'?

Aww, come on, Roco. You know you are valued, undefeated and admired here, at least! :)

Mom?

"Mom?"

hahaha

:D



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2019 07:19PM by kathleen.

"Miracle" or lack of expanded vocabulary?

I was thinking that of the thousands of trees that crashed to the ground in a snowstorm here in CA, yet didn't crush any houses, nor crush any person, nor crush any car (noogied maybe), must have been a miracle. But then I would have to say that the same power burned down billions of other trees and an entire city.

"Miracle?" No. Lack of vocabulary.

It would be more like me to wonder if there is some mysterious communication among oak trees and a consensus reached, "let's not smash anybody."

But, then, I think like that.

Expanded vocabulary. Lack of vocabulary. Nice.

Some would say with relief as they finally made it back to camp on the Serengeti, "It's a miracle that Lion didn't kill me and eat me."

Others might answer, "Well he did just finish eating a gazelle---and twos meerkats, so . . . "


I know another language where the word for time and weather are the same. I always wanted a word for both. More vocabulary.

Mysteries let us know we need to keep finding new words. Miracle wants us to stop finding new words? Pat answers do not great explorers make.