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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 02:31AM

My father was diagnosed with a terminal disease when I was 12. That's when my parents told me. At that time, we went to church, but we never talked about religion at home and I didn't attend Sunday School, so my concept of God was very fuzzy. If anything, I thought of God as a sort of celestial Coke machine. You asked for something, paid in good behavior or good grades or whatever, and if you played it right, you got what you had asked for.

So I promised God that if he would let my father get well, I would get straight As in everything in school, except math, which was out of the question and surely, even God knew that.

I delivered. In my freshman and sophomore years in high school, my grades were dazzling. I held up my end of the deal.Then Dad died during Christmas vacation of my sophomore year. Not only did I lose a much-loved father to a hideous disease, but I was stuck with a mother whose temper could shame a pit-viper at shedding time. I severed ties with God. It was bitter and ugly.

Mother forced me to go to church, but there were hideous fights every Sunday after Dad's passing. I pointedly paid no attention to sermons, refused to sing hymns or murmur along with prayers. The minister, a very sweet guy, told me years later that he could see what was going on. I was taking out my anger on God and Mother was incensed that I dared to show it. The minister understood completely.He had seen it before.

I never really believed again, after that. I bought into the TBM line more out of emotional neediness than any true religious feelings.

My DH has begun asking to go to church again, "Even," he says, "if only the Presbyterian Church." I am happy not participating in religion at all, but for the sake of my relationship to DH, I don't guess I mind going to the Presbyterian Church once a week. They don't give a rat's patoot what you wear, so my jeans will be fine along with a dressy sweater. It's a nice congregation and the young minister is very well-educated and a joy to listen to, so I guess that will be OK.

I don't even own a dress (except for a decades-old black suit that I keep for funerals) and refuse to waste money on them, so the LDS church is completely out of the question. I would not consider setting foot in one unless I outlive DH and have to attend his funeral in one.Totally out of the question.

So I guess at the grand old age of 70+ I will be taking up religion again, though I ceased believing ages ago. Well, it will be nice to see some different faces for a change. . .

Has anybody else taken up religion at such a late age, even if only for show?

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 03:07AM

After Mormonism and bearing (false) testimony so often as a young person just because I was expected to and was taught that it was virtuous to do so (even when you really didn't know what you claimed to know)...I am now dead set against proclaiming a belief in anything that I don't feel I can back up with solid logic and reasoning.

That doesn't mean I've given up all hope in something good (or even just something) coming after this vale of tears, sorrow and the occasional good sandwich. I just can't honestly say that I know anything and I can't say that I've found any religious organization that can make a convincing case that they have any particularly helpful knowledge.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with going to a Presbyterian church (or any other denomination). It can be a positive thing to regularly meet with people who are generally trying to focus on good things and being good. In the modern age, much focus is put on every bad thing that can be discovered past and present in the religious traditions of western civilization. But there is a lot of good to be found too. It's a bit of a Rorshach test, TBH. But most church-going people seem to be genuinely trying to be good people, so hanging out with them at a church seems to be a good way to get some social life.

I went to Presbyterian, Methodist and Baptist churches off and on for several years. They were always low-pressure and I liked that. Nobody ever pulled the "authority" card on you the way that Mormons do. I met a lot of good people and a few weirdos. But weirdos can be found anywhere.

As far as the belief system goes, I couldn't help but see a lot of holes and logic fails. Thinking one's way out of Mormonism kind of makes it difficult to get sucked into the differently packaged, but substantially similar delusions of other belief systems.

That's a long-winded way of saying that if you have the time and your DH wants to go, why not? You don't really have much to lose in going to a low-pressure church and it may turn out to be fun (depending the local pastor and congregation).

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Posted by: MexMom ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 04:14AM

No I do not believe anything religious anymore.

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Posted by: cl2 (not logged in) ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 05:43AM

think I believe (and it changes daily) has absolutely nothing to do with any religious organization. You couldn't get me to sit through a meeting/sermon for anything except, as others have stated, a funeral and just barely. I've attended family funerals, but so far, I've quit attending funerals other than that.

My boyfriend is a Jewish convert, but doesn't not attend nowadays. The most he did was give the Shabbat prayer on his birthday last Friday. He knows how religion has damaged me. He knew me at age 20, too, so there is no pressure from my boyfriend.

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Posted by: CrispingPin ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 07:29AM

I’ve said this before a few times (but I do repeat myself a lot at my advanced age): I didn’t give up on religion because I left mormonism, I left mormonism because I gave up on religion.

If there is a god, I see no evidence that he/she/it is represented by any religion that I have ever encountered.

I know that many people get involved with religion, and attend services, for reasons other than sincere belief, but I have no reason or desire to attend.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 08:41AM

I absolutely do. But I don't try to bargain with God. I pray for understanding, guidance, and I do admit for divine intercession in the lives of those I pray for or with.

When I receive a blessing of inner peace in response to a particularly stressful or difficult circumstance I regard that as a form of answer to prayer even if I didn't ask for it specifically. The peace and reassurances I've received at times in response to prayers said, transcend the noise and confusion in the moment and worldly explanation. It's like a window to heaven gets opened, and a portal to another space where angels or departed loved ones are watching over us from heaven and are there whether we realize it or not.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 08:44AM

I attend religious services for the prayer portion. Where I've been going, I stayed on for the fellowshipping.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 01:57PM

So you use religion as a social club.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 09:51AM

Nope.

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Posted by: Soft Machine ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 10:19AM


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Posted by: memikeyounot ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 03:43PM

DDoouubbllee DDiittoo

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 10:00AM

You shouldn't need to hold your husband's funeral in a Mormon church if you don't wish to. As his wife, you should have the final say where to have his funeral unless it would violate his wishes.

My parents, both inactive LDS when they passed, had their funerals at the funeral homes who handled the arrangements for them. Mom was buried on the grounds of the funeral home following the service, and a luncheon followed right there in the same place.

That's the way she pre-planned it. My TBM bros had both parents buried in their temple clothes, but otherwise neither really followed a Mormon service I'm happy to say. There were some LDS hymns sung at each, that was about it. No presiding bishop attended. Family could say a few words, there were no requirements on that. I thought both went pretty well, minus the temple garb.

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Posted by: idleswell ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:00AM

I was a member of the Church for 30 years - all as an adult (if that is relevant).

Since I was a convert, I see religion as a personal choice. I never understood other members that saw their Mormonism as an identity. I never respected those members who justified compulsion through religion.

Whatever relationship I had with God existed before I came into the Church, while I was a member of the Church and continues after I left the Church. I can not deny that there is a God after some personal experiences I have had.

The Church helped teach me about God. However, God could have given me that knowledge within the Church or in other ways. I may not have been as receptive without the Church. A convert has the benefit of perspective born in the covenant members may not consider.

At some point I realized that the Church is also a parasitic organization. I needed to protect myself from its excesses. My relationship with God did not depend on the Church or whether a bishop thought I could go to the temple that month. At this point, continuing as a member of the Church was pointless.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:11AM

I do believe in love.
Weooo weooo weooo
I do believe it’s true.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:19AM

No one could have told me as a teenager that I'd graduate high school in the same hometown as Grace Slick and Joan Baez.

Used to hang out with Slick's little brother, Chris Wing.

Stevie Nicks and Lindsey Buckingham went to high school in the next town over, Menlo-Atherton, where one of my roommates siblings went to school with. My Jewish grandmother grew up in Menlo Park going to private girls boarding school after she was orphaned as a young girl.

I was thrown to the wolves at 17, and ended up in Palo Alto by default.. Finished high school there. Was a singer/songwriter myself, so I felt I had arrived in my own little corner of paradise. It was the only town I've ever lived where I saw Rolls Royces cruise the main streets on any given day. A Rolls Royce dealer was right down the street from where I lived with my roommates where I finished high school.

To me, that was a miracle. I was rescued from homelessness in Ogden, Utah. Living on the streets of Ogden, to living and going to high school in Palo Alto. I felt like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz who was whisked away from Kansas to Oz. It was that stark of a difference in my world.

Nothing short of a miracle at that time in my life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m8izf-oXY4



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2019 11:20AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: olderelder ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:40AM

In almost the same instant I realized I didn't believe in Mormonism I realized I didn't believe in anything supernatural.

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Posted by: sonofthelefthand ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:44AM

I think that after my shelf broke, I became so soured on Mormonism that it probably affected my view of all religions. I find it difficult to even entertain the idea of being religious. I suppose that isn't fair to other religions, but it is how I have felt now for some 30 years. I don't regret not having religion in my life.

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Posted by: Argonaut ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:54AM

Odin got rid of the frost giants. To hell with the rest.

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 12:17PM

I don't attend any religious organization, but I consider myself to be Born Again Christian. Since leaving TSCC, I've experienced "spiritual" things more, including a vivid dream that occurred almost a year ago that left such a strong message and impression, that I can still recollect it clearly, down to the colors and details. It was shown to me how to help my family to believe in the NT both for those who left and the one who is still TBM. We've experienced things that you might call "miraculous" in the way that things happened and came together at an exact point in time, that would have been impossible at any other moment.

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Posted by: valiant ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 02:50PM

When I first left mormonism I felt a need to fill the space that mormonism left by attending other churches. I have since decided that that space that mormonism left is meant to be empty, that it's my space, a place for me to go and be by and with myself. When I would like advice from outside myself, I go to people who I trust to give advice that is in my best interest. But I never trust anyone's opinion more than my own opinion that I get when I go to that space that is only my own. When I ask myself what I should do or think, I trust no one more than myself to give me the advice that is best for me.

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Posted by: Rubicon ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 03:57PM

I just learned all organized religions have problems. What they tend to be good at is running schools, doing charity and relief work. Providing some good activities for families and children.

What organized religions are poor at is honoring the power of the individual. Religions tend to be "group think" organizations and leadership heavy. You follow the leaders or else. It's not just LDS Inc. that's this way.

Jesse Ventura who is an agnostic said one thing he learned being governor of Minnesota is the church's do a lot of good. He said if the church's disappeared we all would feel the loss. I agree with Jesse on that. I will also be the first to say church's can be very flawed organizations. Also the people who want to get rid of organized religion really don't seem to be offering anything better as a replacement. Such people tend to be fond of large government and really don't seem so interested in protecting individual freedom.

I'm just glad I live in a place where I'm free to choose what I want to believe in and if anyone wants to take that away from me, I'm going to fight them like a pit bull. I'm a first amendment guy and with that you get some things that are annoying and don't like. I will fight for the church's freedom of religion as much as I fight for my right to avoid religion and have my own beliefs. The reality is we aren't all going to agree on things.

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Posted by: IrreverentDave ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 02:10AM

Rubicon.
Why would one need to "replace" the loss of Mormonism with anything?
We're all capable of dreaming up our own religious beliefs that are probably better than any of the organized corporate variety?
Hiking on Sundays is much more spiritual than any sac. meeting ever was.

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Posted by: eva ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 02:21AM

I believe the ancient Hebrews were a murderous, superstitious, slave loving bunch of psycho savages who created a god (Yahweh) who, ironically, was just like THEM!!

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 03:56AM

They were actually a cut above the pagan idolators who lived in their midst.

It's like comparing apples to oranges.

It was the survival of the fittest for tribal groups then and now. They had to band together if they were to survive. They had a moral code that others didn't, that would eventually become codified into the Judeo-Christian laws we know on the books used today in western democracy.

If the Jews learned anything from the lessons of the Holocaust is they are soldiers themselves, and there is safety in numbers. Now they are a nation state again they are as entitled to defend themselves as anyone else.

Am Israel Chai. We have always been at war with Eurasia. (1984.) Some things never change. It isn't because of a race or religion or creed. It's because of power moguls who want to rule the world. Religion has nothing to do with it. Corruption and greed have everything to do with it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 03:59AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 04:01AM


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 04:02AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 04:45PM

I grew up with friends of all religions, and I knew a little of the basics of most Christian religions, and Judaism.

When I resigned from the Mormon cult, there was an enormous disconnect between Mormonism and God. I was--an still am--certain that the Mormon cult has nothing whatsoever to do with God and Christ. JS just plagiarized sections of the Bible and blasphemously used the name of Christ, in order to sell his hoax cult. What did God have to do with that? Nothing.

It's the same with the behavior and motivations of the Mormons. They are not "Christ-like" or even "good human like." It's a greedy, money-grabbing business, that's all. There are all kinds of hoaxes and scams, all over the world. God didn't mastermind these, either. The God I believe in, does not move people around like chess pieces, or play them like "instruments." He does not punish people for every little thing. He abhors murder, adultery and polygamy, slavery, lies, and hatred. Well--that's all basic religious stuff--but it doesn't seem to be stressed much in the Mormon cult.

The Mormon cult has NOTHING to do with Christ, God, or any religion.

It's not a religion; it's a cult.

I will never have the answers as to who or what force or entity or big-bang, or whatever created the universe. I can accept that my mind probably wouldn't comprehend it, even if all that was discovered/revealed in my lifetime. I can live with ambiguity, so I don't need religion. Still, that same ambiguity keeps me from turning my back on God. Divine or not, Christ taught us a good way to live. It works well, for a lot of people, and also for me and my children.

I believe in Love. My beliefs, behaviors, and philosophy of life are personal, and strong, and have been constant over the years (Mormonism or no Mormonism). There are as many different interpretations of "God" as there are people to interpret Him. Probably no one concept is the correct one.

Whatever, I don't feel required to go sit inside a church, and listen to stuff I've heard before. Some churches are pretty, and they have nice music, and the people are nice, but my Mormon phobia makes the church experience very unpleasant.

Church is unnecessary. I do volunteer work outside of church, helping people good ways, other than trying to "save their souls". Family, friends, the schools, and the community provide me with social life and interests. All this quickly poured in, to fill up whatever "gap" was left by the cult. I certainly don't miss it.

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Posted by: fossilman ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 05:00PM

I believe for every drop of rain that falls
A flower grows

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 12:35AM

I believe that every time a newborn baby cries, a guy leaves town ...

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 01:55AM


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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 01:51PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe that every time a newborn baby cries, a
> guy leaves town ...


I believe that should be a song lyric since its based on reality

instead of BS

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Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:08PM

I don't believe in fictional stories. Does that answer your question?

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Posted by: bettydee ( )
Date: April 04, 2019 11:15PM

Nope , came out of my atheist closet after Mormonism.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: April 05, 2019 01:23AM

First of all, Catnip, let me say that I am sorry you lost your dad at your young age, A little late for condolences, but mine are there anyway.

No. I don't believe any church can offer me anything. I've said before here that I've always sensed a benevolent presence in my life. But no church can expand or take away from that,

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: April 06, 2019 10:44PM

My son inherited the genes for the same disease that killed Dad. I still have some degree of guilt about that. At the time my now-ex and I were considering having kids, I didn't know enough about the disease to be able to ask about the likelihood of passing it on. While I adore my son, I don't believe I would have borne children if I had understood how the genetic process worked.

My boy is now on dialysis, and I hope to heck that one day, he will find a donor for transplant. He has the Medicare coverage that pays for his dialysis and will eventually pay for transplant and immuno-suppressant meds unless things have changed since I retired from Social Security. He has two young daughters, and like me, they will very likely turn out to be "carriers" (if not also patients with the disease, as I am.)

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Posted by: Becca ( )
Date: April 05, 2019 02:42AM

When I first left mormonism I felt empty and lost. I tried to fill that void by studying Wicca, but I couldn't cope with the rules and hierarchy. I was done with that sort of thing.
I did engulf myself in a less strict form of witchcraft.

Now, I can say; I really don't believe anything religous anymore. I no longer need it.

I've got me now.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: April 05, 2019 07:36PM

I require at least a little solid evidence of that which I am supposed to believe.

So, basically, no religion for me.

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Posted by: Vahn421 ( )
Date: April 05, 2019 08:05PM

Religion didn't create the concepts of life before and after death, nor did they invent Eternity. Those realities exist independent of religion.

The reason why religion is so compelling is the little spark inside of us that seeks after more but can't understand the, "How" or the, "Why." Religion tries to neatly compartmentalize concepts that our human brains can barely even begin to grasp.

The "evidence" that there is more to us than just this life is in the basic math of one mere mortal moment compared to time and space stretching on infinitely.

In other words, we all have a better chance of winning the lottery than only existing now and having never existed in some form before or after, given the infinite nature of time.

Religion capitalizes on this fact and preys on the sheep. Very few can walk a road that doesn't compromise the mind OR the heart, but it does exist if you're willing to push on hard enough.

Christianity is a dead-end, sooner or later, for the mind. I wish you the best if you're searching, but it will only partially satisfy.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 05, 2019 08:57PM

Olivia Newton-John says in one of her latest interviews that religion for her is walking in the woods near her home while praying. That is where she finds her peace and quiet meditation.

She has lost everyone in her immediate family to cancer with the exception of her daughter. Olivia herself has overcome breast cancer now three times. She considers herself more than a survivor, she calls herself a "thriver."

She always looks at the bright side of life. Her late sister, Rona, who died from brain cancer in 2012, used to say her sister was always a sunny optimist. Nothing ever gets her down. She still makes it part of her mission to lift spirits as she goes. Including @ her Cancer Wellness Center she funded and founded in Melbourne, Australia.

She hopes science will find a cure for cancer in her lifetime. (Don't we all?)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2019 09:01PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 11:27AM

The cure for cancer is science and religion together.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 12:28AM

I've seen nothing meriting belief.

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Posted by: christfollower ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 12:51AM

I left organized religion. Jesus never left me. I still strongly believe he is the savior of the world and everything he claimed to be. Not another soul on the planet has affected so many people. More has been written, sung about, talked about, art depicted, followed than any other person. Billions upon billions have and still follow him. 2000 years later and over half the entire planet follows him and is waiting for his 2nd coming. Over half the planet awaits his return.

I never regretted leaving Mormonism or all forms of organized religion, and I never regretted not leaving Jesus. I believe he saves and I believe all people can follow him without religion.

Peace to you all.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 12:24PM

budha and mohammed had bigger impacts than Jesus

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 04:02AM

I believe in Corian countertops and slate floors.

That's religious. If heaven's streets are paved with gold, it knows what fine materials are made of. Corian is superior to granite I just learned, because it is less porous and is easier to keep clean.

I discovered a really pretty Travertine lookalike tile in linoleum, at half the price, upkeep and maintenance of real travertine. Travertine is porous. Can stain, chip, and can be high maintenance. Whereas a quality linoleum at half the price of the travertine produces the similar look without the hassle.

(I'm trying to decide if I'm going to re-tile my kitchen floor this spring. Decisions, decisions.)

;o)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 04:07AM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Screen Name ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 08:34AM

I have wrestled with atheism and belief since I was a teen. That was 50 years ago. Here is what most likely happened to Our Heavenly Father. It is not a joke. It is based upon my life experiences, and makes the most sense.

God was a well-meaning genius. He stumbled upon how to get things to obey Him, and soon thereafter created a universe.

The big bank made Him deaf.

So embarrassed He was, that He simply disappeared.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:17AM

Haven't seen evidence that a god or gods exist, but plenty of evidence that god, gods, and religions are manmade.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 11:11AM

I've seen evidence, and had answers to prayer. That in itself is a form of "evidence" as far as I'm concerned.

Evidence is all around us and within us. It's in the engineering of our bodies and the way things work.

There is no accident to our birth or creation. We are not mere random occurrences when I consider that our souls are eternal, and life is eternal.

The probability for random occurrence is much lower than we are here by intelligent design.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eM_bErWrxc

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 11:36AM

You are a song being sung by God.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 12:54PM

Evidence is demonstrable. What you cite as evidence isnt demonstrable to the claim you're making.

Our body function is a teribble kludge for the most part. Holes in the middle of our vision, sloppy cognition shortcuts for survival, hyper aggressive agency detection paradoelia, the range of diseases and defects the body is subject to just in meiosis and spermatogenesis. If this is intelligent design, a design subject to unlimited suffering and injustice, God's an idiot and shouldnt be allowed to play with us as toys. To claim us as designed demonstrates a moral failure as the basis of gods work.

There is no basis for calculating the odds of god's existence either. That's just guess work hidden behind hand waved math.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 04:11PM

Theist: "But, but, but...A banana fits perfectly in the human hand!!!"

Non-ghawder: "Someone hand that woman a watermelon!!"

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 11:22AM

Is there any type of correlation between what a person believes on the issue of 'from whence life sprang' and that person's character or personality type?

In other words, can those of us who face each other across the 'how did we come to exist' divide be categorized in other ways besides the choice we've made on this issue?

How is it...Why can two people examine the same set of circumstances and come to completely antithetical conclusions?

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Posted by: delbertlstapley ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 02:11PM

You either decide to accept religion with all its flaws and live with the contradictions or not. You either live in denial or not. For example, if God is omnipotent, all loving etc., why is there a Satan? The only way to deal with this is accept the dogma and push aside this logic.

Once you understand and internalize the contradictions (honestly see both sides) it gets hard to live with the dogma and continue in denial.

My 2 cents

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Posted by: delbertlstapley ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 02:06PM

All religions are made up BS. But religion plays a huge role giving people a way to follow and moral compass.

Try reading Sapiens. It gives a very logical review of how religions are all made up and so are all other human constructs like capitalism, democracy etc...

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Posted by: wonderfull ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 04:04PM

I like to call myself an American Humanist. I put together my thoughts on this here: https://sites.google.com/view/practicingamerican/an-american-humanist

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Posted by: Valium and Pepsi ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:56PM

Thank you for that link, Wonderfull.

I have been enjoying your posts, and have been in close agreement with everything you have had to say. Now I know why!

No one has ever defined my beliefs, but if I ever need to, I can define myself as being a Deist and a Humanist. Have I settled onto a new "religion" at last, after years of wandering around?

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 05:55PM

Evil very much exists.

And so does its polar opposite.

For everything there is an explanation. For those who believe in creationism and deity doesn't mean they/we do not believe in science. It simply means that science encompasses all of that which it can observe, because even science does not pretend to presume it is all knowing. It can only study what it observes.

It learns as it goes. It does not presume to know the grand design (or designer) of our lives or the Universe. But it does not stop it from searching for the answers.

It says in scripture that God created evil. Why, no one knows.

But for every effect there is an opposite effect. It is true in science as well as in life. There is meaning in karma in the sense that what goes around, comes around.

If good matters because we are moral creatures, then that is why religion matters. It teaches humans there is a moral code and it is our choices in life that direct our eternal path we are bound for. Science can help us understand how life began and how things work. It does not teach us how to be moral creatures. The spiritual is as important as the mental and every great scientist knows this. The physical world is observable. It is the metaphysical world that spiritualists and theologists attempt to understand. Along with people of all persuasions who care about their soul and transcending the limits of the physical world.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 05:57PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 06:34PM

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Evil very much exists.
>

"Evil" is a word of art. There is no absolute meaning to it, as there is with a word like 'water' or 'circle'. If a number of people believe that vaccinating their children is evil, then within that group, the appellation works for them.

Sure, there may be a circumstance that you can propose that all of us here on RfM would agree is 'evil', but there are a lot of things you would label 'evil' that others here wouldn't. In other words, it's not an absolute, like 'water' and 'circle'.

> And so does its polar opposite.

Same discussion. Maybe some absolutes, but plenty of gradations.

>
> For everything there is an explanation. For those
> who believe in creationism and deity doesn't mean
> they/we do not believe in science. It simply means
> that science encompasses all of that which it can
> observe, because even science does not pretend to
> presume it is all knowing. It can only study what
> it observes.

What a mish-mash... Everything hopefully has an explanation, but would you accept 'chance' as an explanation? I wouldn't think that a religionist would.

I do like your observation that science can only study what it observes. Religions have it all over science that that regard, in that they can speak authoritatively of things that cannot be seen.

>
> It learns as it goes. It does not presume to know
> the grand design (or designer) of our lives or the
> Universe. But it does not stop it from searching
> for the answers.

If "it" is science, then the above sentiment seems quite orderly, except for the use of "answers". That presumes questions. I think science is just concerned with information.


>
> It says in scripture that God created evil. Why,
> no one knows.
>

On this one, you're on your own. I'm aware that many religions do not assign to ghawd the creation of evil, so you may be inline for a discussion with them. As to the question of why ghawd allows evil to exist, one explanation I'm fond of is that there is no ghawd and it's just us beanie babies behaving badly.

> But for every effect there is an opposite effect.
> It is true in science as well as in life.

I'd like to see the math on this. I don't think everything exists in opposition to everything else. How about 'glancing blows'?

> There is meaning in karma in the sense that what goes
> around, comes around.
>

I don't believe in 'karma'. Again, I'd like to know if there is any math, any equations, that demonstrate the inescapability of 'karma'...


> If good matters because we are moral creatures,
> then that is why religion matters. It teaches
> humans there is a moral code and it is our choices
> in life that direct our eternal path we are bound
> for.

Religion matters because people can make a good living at it, and because people like simple answers. Put the two together...

> Science can help us understand how life began
> and how things work. It does not teach us how to
> be moral creatures. The spiritual is as important
> as the mental and every great scientist knows
> this.

"The spiritual is as important as the mental and very great scientist know this." This is overblown rhetoric. Way overblown.


> The physical world is observable. It is the
> metaphysical world that spiritualists and
> theologists attempt to understand. Along with
> people of all persuasions who care about their
> soul and transcending the limits of the physical
> world.

I hope the spiritualists and metaphysicists to whom you refer are good people and aren't just out to make a buck. And I submit to you that there are many, many people who live good, decent lives with caring about their souls and how to transcend the limits of the physical world.

I don't know why it is that there are those who need to feel that they have a handle on how best to live, and what to believe, and then feel the necessity to push their imperatives on others.

I hope you understand that I do not care what you think or how you act, but I do want to show that I am opposed to your explanations of how things work, and why.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 06:49PM

Amyjo Wrote:
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> Evil very much exists.

Can you point to any evil separate from humans? Its a human concept applied to human acts. It doesn't exist independent of human observation. And it needs nothing more than humans to occur.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:00PM

What more do you need to know that it is real and that it exists?

Who do you think created it? Did it exist before time?

How do you answer such questions other than through hypotheticals. However, there is no hypothetical for evil.

I don't believe we exist by random occurrence. The statistical odds for that are slim to none. And that is based on a scientific calcuation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eM_bErWrxc


Therefore everything in existence is known to whomever or whatever the master designer is. Including the existence of evil. Without it we wouldn't appreciate what it means to be good or the difference between moral and immoral. Or hatefulness and indifference v. loving kindness and a loving all knowing benevolent Creator. For if there is a judgment day on the wicked, there will be a harvesting of souls in the world or worlds to come.

One doesn't have to be a Mormon to appreciate belief in God. God is everywhere. In things seen and unseen.

In my life God has been a benevolent caretaker. So I don't question whether he exists or not. Because my prayers are heard even when my faith is weak.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 09:02PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:13PM

the content, premises and arguments in that video are far from science let alone peer reviewed. Just read the description block alone.

I know you believe and i'm fine with that. But making declarative statments of belief as fact is what I'm not fine with.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:23PM

Well you do the very same thing.

So get over it.

We're both entitled to our beliefs and our opinions.

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Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:33PM

possibly. but i try to use evidence.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:28PM

Besides, I'm responding to OP's query of whether one believes in ANYTHING in the Religious line.

Not the adverse. It seems to be the belief thing you have a problem with. I'm not telling anyone else what to believe in. Just sharing what I believe in and why, with supporting scientific views to back it up with.

Maybe you could start your own thread as to what you do not believe in v. the OP subject line.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:39PM

You make a proffer of evidence by posting a link. You give no explanation regarding what is found at the said link. It leaves me wondering how you can expect, in an exchange of viewpoints, that posting a link is of any effect, is supportive of your view.

Your link goes to one of what I am sure are a whole host of videos, sponsored by John Ankerberg, with the preface "I don't believe we exist by random occurrence. The statistical odds for that are slim to none. And that is based on a scientific calcuation (sic)."

I have no problem with the first two opinions, that we don't exist by random occurrence and that the odds are slim "to none" that such could be the case. And then the third sentence says that your conclusions are based on 'scientific calcuation (sic)', and then there's the proffer of a YouTube video.

Wherein we meet Rev. John Ankerberg, who interviews Dr. Stephen Meyer, a best-selling author, and co-founder of the Intelligent Design Movement. Can you see how farcical your proffer is? You want dyed-in-the-wool atheists to give credence to a rich, rich televangelist and a "Co-Founder of the Intelligent Design Movement"!!!

How about I prove my point by referring you to members of the Christopher Dawkins Society?

And remarkably, at 00:35 of the video, Dr. Meyer says, regarding the possibility that life arose all by itself, "Well, you can never say 'never' for sure...you can't say something couldn't happen for sure, but you can say it would be vastly more improbable than not that life arose by chance..." Then Dr. Meyer says that 'people would dismiss this as not even being a probable hypothesis.' And I suppose he knows many of these people!

So he saying, yeah, it could happen, but me, and the people I know don't believe it.

How is that an offer of scientific proof? A highly educated, in religion, Reverend, and an Intelligent Design proponent!

I believe that you have done less than nothing to support your cause.

I can easily respect 'faith' and 'belief', but making unsupported claims of scientific support for your POV has to be challenged.

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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 07:31PM

Yes. I believe the Pope when he said "All dogs go to Heaven."

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Posted by: exminion ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 07:41PM

I believe in RFM, and, in a way, that's in the religious line, or the end of the religious line.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 07, 2019 09:06PM

Cogito, ergo sum. (I think, therefore I am)
~ Descartes

Dualism is closely associated with the thought of René Descartes (1641), which holds that the mind is a nonphysical—and therefore, non-spatial—substance. Descartes clearly identified the mind with consciousness and self-awareness and distinguished this from the brain as the seat of intelligence.

The evil demon, also known as malicious demon and evil genius, is a concept in Cartesian philosophy. In the first of his 1641 Meditations on First Philosophy, Descartes imagines that an evil demon, of "utmost power and cunning has employed all his energies in order to deceive me."

Trademark argument. The trademark argument is an a priori argument for the existence of God developed by French philosopher and mathematician, René Descartes. In the Meditations Descartes provides two arguments for the existence of God.

Descartes considered himself to be a devout Catholic and one of the purposes of the Meditations was to defend the Catholic faith."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/07/2019 09:10PM by Amyjo.

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