Just curious if you have to be special. Or do regular members work their way toward it?

You have to have a lot to loose if you come out against the cult. Being born in the "right" family helps because those are the people you will loose in your life if you turn away from the morg. Having lots of TBM children and grandchildren also helps. You would not want to let them down.

Being financially beholden to the church is also part of the deal. They give you a huge interest-free loan when you start and as long as you stay committed you don't have to pay it back.

It is all about control. Especially at that level.

Monson and Hinkley are good examples of church employees working their way up the ranks. Loyal. Never ones to rock the boat or receive their own brand of divine revelation. Just do the same thing over and over and keep the money.

Huge interest free loan that you don't have to pay back? Tell me more.

Urban legend. The IRS has a name for an interest-free loan you don't have to make payments on: taxable income. I don't know if it is considered income immediately, or if it has to exist for a certain amount of time with no payments before it gets treated as income, but I do know it is at some point income. Otherwise, corporate mucky-mucks would stop getting payed, and just receive "interest-free no payment loans". The IRS is smarter than that.

Forgiven loans, including through bankruptcy, are also considered income.

J Golden Kimball said "there are two ways to be anyone in the church. Revelation and relation. If I wasn't Heber's (Heber C Kimball) son I wouldn't be anyone in this church.

My GA relative was not the son of a great church leader. He was the grandson. His ancestry went back to the original JS polygamous church members. He was already successful and fairly wealthy, when he was called to be an apostle. He was married to the daughter of a former Prophet. His cousin, and his wife's cousin were both made apostles, and one was later president of the church. GBH came to another relative's funeral, who had been on the General Sunday School board for years. Hinkley looked at all our family's stake presidents, mission presidents, and Seventies, and said, speaking like a fortune-teller, that our family was one of the great, blessed families of the church, and we would continue to produce many more great leaders of the church in the future. Oooo. It was chilling. What an ego trip for our family, who were mostly professionals who have for generations paid HUGE amounts of tithing, and left tons of money to BYU, and had buildings named after them.

Yes, birth, connections, money, these three; but the greatest of these is money.

Seems so strange that members are ok with all of this.

"Seems so strange that members are ok with all of this."

MEMBERS DON'T KNOW THIS!!!

Yes and no.

They know they tend to be related, but they think that the lineage is somehow more holy in those families. Remember mormonism is about your place in a family, not just your relationship with God. And You are responsible for your family and your family is responsible for you.

It works as a whip to keep the peasants in line and it works as justification for nepotism high in the church.

Seems to be in the modern church they are looking for People who are loyal to the organization and who have good administration skills. One former seventy joked and said the church is a business meeting with a prayer. There isn’t much spiritual in the church anymore.

...and that means attention from the men who are already high up in the ruling hierarchy.

What makes one "worthy of attention".

BEING RELATED/CONNECTED TO MORMON ROYALTY.

Nepotism is a big factor in determining who gets ahead and up the ladder in Mormon society. In the past, it was relatively easy to see the nepotism just by counting the numbers of Smiths and Youngs and Snows and Kimballs and Haights who held prominent PAID leadership positions. In more recent generations, it is not so clear due to various intermarriages resulting in more surnames. But if you scratch the surface, you often find that a lot of the nepotism is still there. Just a few easy examples:

---> The Apostle Bruce R. McConkie married the daughter of Prophet (PPSR) Joseph Fielding Smith...and when Joseph Fielding Smith died it opened up an Apostle vacancy. Guess who was called to fill the vacancy? That's right. Bruce! Bruce immediately was made an Apostle and slid right into the vacancy that was created when his father in law died. McConkie was also the son of Oscar McConkie, founder of the law firm Kirton McConkie. Kirton McConkie is for all practical purposes the church's law firm and Bruce's dad knew all of the top leaders of the church. If you dig around, you can find McConkies all over the place in paid jobs connected to the Church. One example is Bruce's son Joseph Fielding McConkie who got a nice professorship at BYU and also paid positions in the Church Education System.

----> Neal A. Maxwell was a relatively popular (pseudo) "intellectual" Apostle from 1981 to 2004, but joined the circle of PAID GAs as a Seventy in 1974. So he had a 30-year career as a paid GA. Guess who his wife was. Colleen Hinckley, first cousin of one Gordon B. Hinckley.

----> The Eyrings. Currently Henry B. Eyring is an Apostle and member of the First Presidency. His son, Henry J. Eyring is currently the president of Brigham Young University--Idaho. (I'm sure it was a total coincidence and had nothing to do with family connections--ha ha ha.) Henry B. Eyring's father (Henry J. Eyring's grandfather) achieved some prominence as a scientist/chemist in the first half of the 20th century and published a book titled "The Faith of a Scientist" (among others) and became a "scientist" propaganda poster boy for the LSD Church pushing the idea that the teachings of the Church were very much in harmony with science. Guess who Henry Eyring's brother-in-law was. Spencer W. Kimball (Kimball married Camilla Eyring, Henry's sister.) The Eyrings are also closely related to the Romneys. Henry Eyring's father was a polygamist who married two Romney girls (great aunts of Mitt Romney). They were all part of the Mormon polygamist colony in Juarez.

---> Richard Hinckley, son of Gordon. If you look at his bio, it appears that he never had any real job in the real world. He mostly worked with and for his dad, the Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley. Just before Hinckley passed on, Richard Hinckley was called to a paid GA position.

---> Haights and Huntsmans. The billionaire Huntsman family is closely related to the Apostle Haight family. (The mother of the second generation of rich Huntsmans (including Jon Huntsman, Jr.) is Karen Haight, daughter of (deceased) Apostle David B. Haight.(Note that Isaac C. Haight was a prominent participant in the Mountain Meadows Massacre.)

When you start poking around it really gets bizarre to see the extent to which a relatively few families essentially "own" the LSD Church. Even at lower levels, they are notorious for looking out for each other and making sure that church-related jobs and business opportunities go to the well-connected Mormons who are informally considered to be "Mormon Royalty".

But it's not all nepotism. New blood does come into the hierarchy quite regularly.

BEING A TALENTED AND SOCIOPATHIC MANAGER OF THE FLOCK.

Another way to be worthy of attention is to be a polished, successful, practical businessman or professional who has demonstrated the ability to implement (e.g. as bishop, stake president or mission president) the will and agenda of the top leadership--no matter what. They are prized for their ability to manipulate, cajole and coerce cooperation and obedience from the sheeple they are put in charge of.

This method of rising to the top is to some degree encapsulated in the question "which way do you face?" Seventy Lynn G. Robbins, in a conference talk, reported receiving the following conversation with Boyd K. Packer:

---> “Which way do you face?” President Boyd K. Packer surprised me with this puzzling question while we were traveling together on my very first assignment as a new Seventy. Without an explanation to put the question in context, I was baffled. “A Seventy,” he continued, “DOES NOT REPRESENT THE PEOPLE TO THE PROPHET BUT THE PROPHET TO THE PEOPLE. Never forget which way you face!” It was a powerful lesson.

So, basically, Packer was telling this young Seventy that if he wanted to get ahead and move up the ladder, he always had to remember that he served the people ABOVE HIM and did not serve the people BELOW HIM.

If you do this very well PLUS have talent for herding the sheep wherever the leaders want you to herd them, you are "worth of attention" and possibly further promotion.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2014/10/which-way-do-you-face?lang=eng

In conclusion, it's a creepy hierarchy full of self-serving families and well-connected people. They are politicians and corporate hacks masquerading as "spiritual leaders."

It should also be noted that Henry J. Eyring was just made a seventy.

He's obviously a "made man".

It's all chauffeurs & limousines, automatic doors, escalators, VIP elevators and plush red carpets...all the way up.

Just imagine having the same or better academic credentials and the similar work ethic and work quality, but NO FAMILY CONNECTIONS. You'd probably have a hard time getting a part-time teaching position at BYU-I and you'd never get within 100 miles of being considered for a GA position.

Wow. That makes sense. Thank you.

The Lord NEVER inspires the "Prophet" to call some person of great spiritual depth and wisdom, who is humbly serving others in obscurity because he does not seek fame or attention.

The "Prophet" never extends a call to someone who has not actually lusted after, strived for, campaigned for and lobbied for a GA position (all the while claiming to be a "humble" servant who is "overwhelmed" by the awesome leadership positions that the Lord has entrusted to him.)

It's a joke. You can't find anything in it that even hints at "divine inspiration" playing a role.

If you win the rat race, you end up with a bunch of rats.

It helps to be a turd that never goes away during the flush.

Becoming a GA is like any other multilevel marketing organization. The only difference is that you have to reach the top level to get paid. A person who pays tithing and who fulfills their callings in their ward becomes a Bishop. At that point you are judged on the tithing revenues of your ward. A well performing Bishop becomes the Stake President. If you are a stake president with relatively high performing wards (lots of tithing in all of them), you eventually are called to be a GA. It's got to be done through a lot of unofficial campaigning, making everyone like you, and maximizing the tithing from your area. If your ward or stake rolls in lots of tithing and everyone loves you're you get promoted.

I am a never-mo, but I heard (it may have been from this board) that the current Mormon Prophet is a convert.

Which connections does he have in this scheme?

He's not really a convert. He was born and raised in SLC, to somewhat inactive mormon parents. He was baptised at the age of 16, which was his age when he graduated from high school and moved on to collich(sic).

And his family history pales in importance to his having been Spencer W. Kimball's heart doctor. But he did put in time in grade as he kept getting promoted up.

I was just about to post the same information but you beat me to it, Elder dog.

I read that his father, Marion C. Nelson, was a "prominent business and civic leader in the intermountain area" He at one time held the priesthood and married his wife (who sang in the tabernacle choir) in the Provo temple. He was still alive when his son became an apostle.

I wonder what drove him and his wife to inactivity while living in Utah?

Living in Utah.

I was gonna go with 'intelligence', but 'good taste' would be a close contender.

But then I'm a bitter hard-core inactive who can't stand the light of righteousness. Feels good!

elderolddog Wrote:
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> But then I'm a bitter hard-core inactive who can't
> stand the light of righteousness. Feels good!

I'll get you a lighted pen.

In a pastel color, if they have them, please.

Like an Easter Bonnet.

No, most Mormons are born in the covet it regardless of their pedigree.

Mostly, impress a GA, they will check your references including your genealogy and determine your worthiness.

They call it discernment. The World calls it climbing a ladder with connection. Polygamy isn't so far away that genealogy is one of these.

The church leadership look for organizational loyal people who follow orders without question and are capable administrators.

But usually joined when their parents did as children.

You need to have worked your way up through the system. Bishop in twenties, stake president by thirties, area authority in forties and you might get promoted to a seventy in your fifties...

I do wonder if Bednar was groomed as church president - the man became a GA very young meaning he gets precedence over older GAs because of time of service.

Bednar was recognized from an early age for his passive aggression and ego strength. It made him an obnoxious teenager, although quite possibly a technically 'faithful" one.

He became an assistant and protégé to Stephen Covey at BYU, and underwent a degree program with brainwashing in organizational leadership. After that nothing could stop him. Stake president, working hard to improve the stats...it all came easily to him.

Like I've said before, I learn something new here everyday. Wally Prince: you provide a lot of well-thought information as well as good sense of humor. IMO, everyone with RfM are all "smarter than the average bear!" :)

Google famous people on the internet. Much of the time their kids are working in the same types of careers that their parents are (or were) working in. This happens in entertainment and politics, where many famous people are. Mormon leadership is similar. Mormon kids were taught things by their leader parents that other kids did not learn.

First, a joke (of sorts), then a serious question.

My state of Massachusetts is a one-party state, so you don't get real elections very often, but lots of candidates and appointees, all of a similar stripe, who are related or closely connected to each other, by family, ward, college, etc. Sort of like Utah, only liberal and Demoncratic! Like Utah, lots and lots of nepotism, cronyism, and corruption. So whenever somebody's in-law, sibling, progeny, (whatever) gets elected or appointed to some cushy job, a local muckracker named Howie Carr calls it "another nation-wide search, and the winner is..."

Here's one of his columns. Can you imagine the Deseret News printing something like this?

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/03/21/howie-carr-see-if-you-can-guess-the-winner-of-this-hack-job/

(Worth the read, seriously)

*****
Now the serious question (slightly OT):

It seems to me that Mormon elite are proud of their polygamous forebears, but uncomfortable with it in the present day and age, going to awkward lengths to pretend it doesn't exist. Do I have that right?

Yes, you are right.

Replying separately to your description of Massachusetts, you bring to mind that old toast to Boston, "the home of the bean and the cod, Where Lowells speak only to Cabots, And Cabots speak only to God."

When I was little somebody did our family genealogy, and I was quite puffed up that we could be traced to the Mayflower. In more mature years, I figured "so what? It doesn't affect who I am, or what I'm doing with my life."

My father later confided that the genealogist who drew it up had a knack for finding illustrious forebears. I had suspected that, as that family tree included royalty from Scotland, France, and England (William the Conqueror!).

Big whoop.

I like to think of myself as a Mongrel-American. Nothing to cash in on, fer shur!

Mathematically, you and every other European American almost certainly descended from William and from French, Scottish. German and other royalty. The odds of a Mayflower ancestor are lower but still substantial.

So substantial, in fact, as to render such ancestry perfectly pedestrian in actuality as well as—your point—intellectual and moral import.

Probably the most undistinguished among the Plymouth Brethren. What makes him significant is that he did survive the winter of 1620-21, and he had lots of children.

The horse thieves, claim jumpers, swindlers and bandits of a century ago are today's ennobled forebears.

"Horse thieves, swindlers and bandits?"

That's nothing. I'm descended from Mormons. On both sides!

How else to explain that critical-thinking lobe? Something doesn't compute!

Many just-south-of-the-border Hispanics take pride in tracing their ancestry back to Moctezuma. And it's so easy to do, given that there are no records! There's no way to challenge what you make up.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
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>> Replying separately to your description of Massachusetts, you bring to mind that old toast to Boston, "the home of the bean and the cod, Where Lowells speak only to Cabots, And Cabots speak only to God."

As you know, the old Boston/New England families are known collectively as "the Boston Brahmins." The families also include the Winthrops, Dudleys, Saltonstalls, Winslows, Lymans, and others. They even have their own accent! Although Anglo-American in background, they were/are members of a number of different churches including the Episcopal, Methodist, Congregational, and Unitarian denominations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin

My father's family has deep New England roots going back to the Mayflower, although of far more modest means -- generally farmers and seafarers, although there is at least one physician in the bunch, and a Revolutionary War soldier.

As with many traditional New England/Yankee families, I was raised to believe that religion is a private matter, and it never hindered my relationships with family and friends in any manner -- I was encouraged to have friends of many different faiths. It is a very different mentality that that of Mormonism.

To end up as a GA, you had to have been a total dickweed in the preexistence.

I remember being taught that they were chosen before they were born.

Abraham 3:23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Makes them more special than just us regular peons. But they told us at least could feel we were better in the pre-existence than those who couldn't hold the priesthood.

I don't believe any of it now, that is just what I was taught.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2019 05:48PM by mikemitchell.

Man oh man!!! All you White-Eyes who were BIC must be so proud!!!

Explain Uchdorf, please.

The exception that proves the rule.

One day Gerritt Gong will be an apostle, too. Then there will be two exceptions.

lol