https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/kirby/2019/04/05/kirby-lgbtq-revelation/

This was published either Friday afternoon, or Saturday morning. In any case, it was prior to GC public sessions.

I think it is an interesting essay implying that he used to be absurdly homophobic, doing damage to people's lives for no good reason at all, just like LDS Inc before it abandoned Its "November Policy". I guess his point was that sometimes you can fix stupid.

But he doesn't feel foolish about his mormonism ?

His wife attends another church, but he's asked me not to say anything more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2019 10:05AM by SL Cabbie.

You must be a youngster. You have no idea what it was to grow up in the 50's and 60's. There were no "Gays", only queers or homos and they were freaks. That's just the way it was. It wasn't questioned. There was one kid I knew in High School, 6 years older than me. He was a very effeminate type gay who took Home Ec instead of Shop like the manly men. Everyone called him "Izzy", meaning is he a boy or is he a girl. He was a great artist. He committed suicide when he was about 20. Another guy was caught and outed. He was an elementary school teacher, a councilor in the bishopric, married with 5 kids. He was fired, excommunicated, divorced, and left town. Don't judge Kirby and don't judge me. That's the world we lived in. He and I have evolved over the years so give us credit. We didn't dig in and keep the hate going like some old dinosaurs have done.

Kirby and I were both "youngsters in the 1960's" (and lived in the same LDS ward) and BoJ is several years older than I am. While your reporting on the "attitude" toward gays at that time is largely accurate, your other generalizations merely confirm the wisdom of Oliver Wendell Holmes.

Who's judging Kirby? He's the one who described his youthful homophobia and he now regrets it and knows better. I was just telling people what his column was about, so they could decide whether they wanted to read it.

As for judging you, you're a lousy judge of age. :)

Mormonism contributes to many unfounded fears - including fear of God, fear of the 'church' and fear of one's self (your conscious) - and anxieties, leading them to do many not nice things, and avoiding doing good, natural things, for the most part, unless it is sanctioned or prescribed by tscc.

Mormonism is anti-Christian for the most part...

Well, I was stupid into the 1980s. And then one night (March 22, 1983) the guy I was dating told me he was gay. Imagine my SHOck. My life has never been the same. My views definitely changed. To think of that girl back then. I can still see myself that night.

I appreciate the jabs at the Mormon church.

"Today, I don’t require a policy or a revelation to tell me how to choose or even treat my friends." or, the one about homophobia being "doctrinally sound."

I was rather shocked when I finally got out of Utah and to SoCal and started exchanging coming out stories with friends who were gay. It became clear how much Mormonism had made the process so much worse. I knew two therapists who actually told friends to avoid the Mormon boys because "they could never truly come to terms with being gay and always went back or at least were still heavily influenced by the church." My own partner of many decades was told this. It wasn't true for me, but it was generally true.

I missed a horrific gay bashing because I outran five guys----in Provo. Being gay was still listed as a mental illness. And the Mormon church was the worst gay basher of all. Still is.

For every Kirby, there is still an Oaks and a Bednar and . . . you know the rest of the list.


Kirby does a lot of good where he is. I don't believe for a second that he believes any of it. He's just using the ace up his sleeve.

Having straight society finally start to understand meant they finally accepted themselves as much as they were accepting us.

It's Mormonism that should have been listed as the mental illness.

My ex is so damaged by his LDS upbringing. He still believes in some of it and we'll have debates about it. He just can't let it go completely. He lived a double life for too long. I see the damage. I really wish he could find someone and just settle down, but I don't think it is going to happen.

I believe the ones who chose NOT to get married were much further along the road of accepting who they were and leaving mormonism behind.

Sad for you ex.

Back in the day there was no internet and finding any information about the big lie the Mormon church is was near impossible. We were all raised to believe the negatives were all lies. I had never heard of the Tanners and was already inoculated against them anyway.

There was still no reason to doubt the BoM like there is today. The BoA thing was all hush hush. So the gays from that time period, we were at an extreme disadvantage. Most still believed, believed, believed the church even as they began to act on their sexuality and innate propensity for who they could love romantically.

Thus, the torment for so many. Caught in the middle with no way out---all sure some day we would somehow be able to repent and live straight. False hope fueled by desperation.

I was one of the lucky. I realized the church was a lie while still at BYU and never went through that inner turmoil after that. But, I watched almost every gay Mormon I knew live the torment over and over whether they married and pretended or just decided to "sin" anyway.

The Information Age is the best thing that ever happened to the gay Mormon youth. Facts are at the finger tips. It's a chance to not be stuck in No Man's Land any more.

I was very happy to find out the facts many decades later. I didn't need them, but they were the frosting on the cake. Finally reading NMKMH was mind blowing.

"Boring? Now there’s a real sin." ~ Robert Kirby

And he identifies as "Formerly designated Mormon" and even attends their meetings.

Sheesh. He must love sinning.

I've loved Kirby since reading his "Sunday of The Living Dead" over twenty years ago. His style hasn't changed, but now he's really highlighting Mormonism's most vile practices.

Caveat first: I am straight and hence have not experienced what our LGTB brothers and sisters have, so my judgment should be taken with a grain of salt.

Long ago on an ex-Mormon website far from here, someone posted a poignant message saying he had been an authority in the Los Altos stake in CA--councilor in a bishopric or stake presidency?--in 2000, when Stuart Matis killed himself. The poster expressed profound regret at his having been a leader in the church when that happened; he said he had never been able to forgive himself.

I forwarded the post to a friend of mine who is a relative of Stuart. She said that Stuart would have been touched that the man had learned and grown and would wish him and his family the best. With her permission I reproduced her words on the bulletin board. The poster read my message and replied that my friend's words brought him great relief and then, as far as I know, never returned to the website. It was as if he had been liberated from his burden and could move on.

My point is that when we are young all of us do, and feel, and are stupid things. We grow and learn and need the forgiveness of others and of ourselves. Kirby is expressing that fact.

And we are always young.

A big heart makes the need for a caveat unnecessary. Beautiful and important story.

Personal and spiritual growth and understanding always trump grudges and punishments. In the news nowadays I am often aghast how often people want reparations for what happened long ago and have no regard for any new direction a person has taken in their lives.

Education, not revenge. One heals, the other doesn't.

It's all well and good to say you have to forgive yourself, but knowing someone forgives you because they know you are a different person now is gold.


However, am wondering about one thing--the "we" in "And we are always young," implying we are all still learning. I suppose the gerontocracy are the exception that proves the rule?

Yes, when I say "we," I mean the vast majority of people who are capable of growth.

I wish your qualification were not necessary, but it is. There are sadly people whose life experiences, or conscious choices, have killed the capacity for growth and renewal. In Mormon terms they are already in something approaching Outer Darkness.

When I was an arrogant, self righteousness dick, (Typical Mormon Penisholder) I wrote to Kirby and his response back to me changed my life co.pletely.
I wrote to him in response to an article he wrote about his daughter's recent marriage and how proud of her he was to see her surrounded by loving family and friends, who were NOT excluded for not being Mormon enough.
I actually wrote to him and congratulated him on his daughters wedding and a new Son In Law. And asked if he wouldn't have been even more proud if they had gotten married in temple?
He wrote back and said,"I learned a long time ago, that just because somebody is walking a different path than me, that doesn't mean they are lost."
I remember being totally surprised at that remark. I found it amazing that a Mormon could have that world view.
Now, after 15years, a faith crisis later, I am on the other side, and his Zen Koan is still true.
I dont think he is lost just because he is Mormon.
I think its a survival mechanism and I am glad he is still writing, not so glad its behind a paywall, but, c'est la vie, no?

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He wrote back and said,"I learned a long time ago,
> that just because somebody is walking a different
> path than me, that doesn't mean they are lost."

He should teach their Missionary Prep classes and write those course study materials.

Good call! Oh wait. That's not the lord's way.

Yeah, true compassion and true respect aren't their lord's way either.

Not according to the profits. No.