In the craziest F&T thread mel brought up some interesting points about how people respond in emergencies. I didn't want to hijack the other thread and thought others might like to add their experiences as well. ;)



mel Wrote:
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> Those studies of bystander inaction during emergencies are
> fascinating. Reasons why no one does anything. Some research,
> you are worse off in a large group because responsibility to
> act is diffused, everyone waiting for the other guy to “do
> something”.

> If you feel like writing, what was the situation
> where you found out you are not a “freezer”?



I've had several scary incidents but have couple that stand out..

When I was probably about 5 or so, my younger brother (around 4-ish), sister (around 2 1/2-ish) and I were playing in the front yard. My mom was in the back yard weeding. This old brown station wagon pulled up with a lady & man in it. We lived on the outskirts of town so I was leery of weird people showing up, but figured they might need directions.

As soon as their car came to a stop the lady jumped out and started running towards my younger siblings. I started screaming for them to run and started running away. When I looked back to make sure they were coming I was horrified to see them both just standing there frozen stiff. I don't blame them though, especially for their age.

I wasn't about to let that lady get her hands on them so I started running back towards her and screaming at the top of my lungs. I knew I was no match and she could probably just pick me up and carry me off. I was beyond terrified and my mind was racing like mad thinking about all the horrible things you hear of kidnappers doing. But I thought if I fought hard enough maybe I'd slow her down and at least buy enough time for my mom to come help.

Thankfully my mom heard the car pull up and heard me screaming. About the same time I stared running towards the lady my mom came running around the corner of the house and saw what was going on. The lady paused for second and you knew she was trying to gauge if she could make it to one of them first or not. She was closer and started make mad dash but change her mind. She rand back to her car and they sped away.

I honestly think I reacted that way because of growing up on a farm. You learn early on that you have to stand up to animals. Whether its a cow, a rooster, or a pissed off goose.. lol


2nd incident.. (sorry for the length, I'd try to keep it short!)


We had a big family get together for the 4th of July. Some of the extra intelligent family members decided it would be a grand idea to set off a bunch of illegal aerial fireworks.

Being the extra bright snowflakes they are, they put them on a flat board, but put the board on the slanted side of the road. As soon as they lit them they tipped over and started pummeling us with exploding balls of fire. Without even thinking my very first instinct was to run for the kids and get them out of the way. My cute nephew grabbed his new wife and shielded her with his body. But all the other adults present sat there like a bump on a log for far too long while it pummeled the houses, the cars and everything else in the way and burned streaks across my front lawn. We were all lucky no one was seriously injured & nothing caught fire that we couldn't put out.

Thought I should mention there's no judgement here if you happen to be a freezer. It's just interesting how different people react in different situations.

Fight. A couple examples.

1) I used to work around automated production lines at Hewlett Packard. One day we were having trouble with "lift and transfer" module that raised and lowered automatically to transfer empty returning assembly pallets over to the assembly side of the line. The issue required us to use a bolt nut as a temporary shim so it would work properly. As as I mentioned to the technician to secure the temporary nut with adhesive so it wouldn't fall out, I reached over to push it into a center position with my thumb when it was lifted. Well it came down on my thumb and I was stuck with my thumb getting crushed.

My coworker froze and yelled for people to push the E-stop button, those he yelled to froze, so I calmly took out my 6 inch steel rule, touched the sensor with it to raise the lift, and freed myself. Yes, I was stupid and didn't practice safety, had to apologize to me team mates, but I didn't freeze.

2) Wife and I were kayaking with a group of family and friends on a river in Oregon. One of the gals in the group was behind us all so my wife stayed by her. She ended up drifting to the wrong side of the river, got swept under and her kayak was pinned under a log in the river. My wife blew her emergency whistle. We all heard it down river. Everyone froze. I immediately turned my kayak around and paddled hard upstream against the current. When I couldn't paddle further, I pulled it out, beached it, and ran up an island as far as I could, when I ran out of island, I crossed chest deep in fast water to reach them. They were safe, so I managed to free her boat and let it float down to the others, and using my wife's boat, we all held on and crossed the chest deep water safely. My Bro-in-law commented later " I heard the whistle, turned around and saw Roy paddling up stream as hard as he could." He also told me I'm a guy he would want in his foxhole.

Oops, meant to reply to original post.

I've been robbed at gunpoint several times at the restaurant I managed. One of the times they forced me into the office and made me open the floor safe with a gun to my head. I actually got the dang safe open on the first try, which was usually a 50/50 proposition in the first place. They then gagged and hogtied me and left me on the floor.
So I think, although I did not fight any of the armed robbers, and I "let" them tie me up, I'm not a freezer, as I was able to get the safe open, and made a choice not to put up a fight.

P.S. Never again will I be tied up. I'll fight like HE double toothpick if there ever is a next time :-)

HOLY COW!!! You are one brave soul!! I don't know if I could have kept my cool in that situation. I'm so glad you are ok!! I hope you don't deal with PTSD from it..

Getting robbed. Happened to me three times. If you see it coming, open a landline phone to 9-1-1, then take the keys with you and hide. If you can, hide that phone. Don't get into a debate with the dispatcher standing there on the phone, get lost. Get rid of your car keys and your wallet--they'll steal your car and if they know your home address, look you up. If they get to you, tell them you get to work by bus. The open phone line displays your address and the police will have to come by to check out the call. Open phone line is an open mike.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2019 06:05AM by snagglepuss.

Great stories here, thanks!

That book I was reading about this phenomenon is "The Survivors Club: The Secrets and Science that Could Save Your Life" by Sherwood. First-hand accounts from people who survived disasters.

Another fascinating book was "The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why" by Ripley.

I never had a situation like that happen to me, though I have responded to situations after they occurred, but that's not the same thing as having your life depend on recognizing and reacting to something within seconds. Very interesting to hear about. I hope I'm not a freezer!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2019 11:58AM by mel.

Thanks for the book rec's mel. Just got the kindle version of them both (one was only $1.99). I'm always fascinated by peoples behavior. ;)

I have a fairly fast reflex time (or at least I did when I was younger.) Not sure what it would be now since it tends to slow down as we age.

Sometimes you do act before thinking, especially in an emergency like what you described. Your adrenaline is racing. You don't have time to plan your next move. Some young children are able to use a great deal of sound judgment under high pressure. Even grownups aren't always as quick on their feet to know what to do in a given situation.

That's the problem with crime is one doesn't know when evil strikes how things *might* turn out. You do what you can to avert a disaster and hope for the best outcome. Although things could have been much different had the sinister couple's plans not been thwarted.

What about the other alternative as in flight v. fight? Rather than freeze in place or fight back, another option could be to run like hell.

In your case that wasn't an option. You did what you had to do under the circumstances to save your younger siblings.

Which was better than had you frozen or ran away. They knew in that moment that you'd be able to identify them, and would go kicking and screaming at a bare minimum. Then with your mom bringing up the rear, they'd seen enough to know their gig was up there. Too bad they didn't get busted that time, because they are the type who will turn around and try it on some other children somewhere else. Are they running a baby brokerage business, I wonder? Selling children on the black market? Or worse? The thought of what they do with stolen children makes me shudder.

Amyjo Wrote:
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Rather than freeze in place or fight back,
> another option could be to run like hell.
>
> In your case that wasn't an option. You did what
> you had to do under the circumstances to save your
> younger siblings.


Yes! I wanted to run like hell but I couldn't leave my brother & sister behind.


> Which was better than had you frozen or ran away.
> They knew in that moment that you'd be able to
> identify them, and would go kicking and screaming
> at a bare minimum. Then with your mom bringing up
> the rear, they'd seen enough to know their gig was
> up there. Too bad they didn't get busted that
> time, because they are the type who will turn
> around and try it on some other children somewhere
> else. Are they running a baby brokerage business,
> I wonder? Selling children on the black market? Or
> worse? The thought of what they do with stolen
> children makes me shudder.


Totally! My mom did report it but I doubt anything was ever pursued. I'm pretty darn sure this was not their first attempt at nabbing a child. It seemed to me the had a thought out plan. Especially because of how brazen the lady was when she continued to try and get to them with my mom in sight. I can only hope they were never successful.

Some studies have shown that its about 'recognizing' that something IS an emergency, because so much of our life we are in regular situations which don't require attention, much less action.

For instance, you (or your instincts) recognized immediately there was something wrong with the people stopping in the car, and you took action.

That was one reason cited for the inaction of bystanders in deadly attacks--especially when they were with a large crowd of people who were all doing nothing--no one recognized it as an emergency--so that view was contagious, and no one did anything.

I'm sure it is unusual for you at such a young age, to have recognized and taken action so quickly. Good though!

Some recommendations for emergency workers who need help from crowds is for them to single one out, pointing: You! Help me carry this hose" for instance. It moves them from being part of the inactive crowd to being actively engaged and recognizing the need for action.

Denial is everywhere in life. It's good to see reality. :)

mel Wrote:
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> Some studies have shown that its about
> 'recognizing' that something IS an emergency,
> because so much of our life we are in regular
> situations which don't require attention, much
> less action.
>
> For instance, you (or your instincts) recognized
> immediately there was something wrong with the
> people stopping in the car, and you took action.
> That was one reason cited for the inaction of
> bystanders in deadly attacks--especially when they
> were with a large crowd of people who were all
> doing nothing--no one recognized it as an
> emergency--so that view was contagious, and no one
> did anything.
>
> I'm sure it is unusual for you at such a young
> age, to have recognized and taken action so
> quickly. Good though!



That makes a lot of sense. There was no question to me these people were creepy & up to no good. Someone else might not have had recognized it. Growing up being severely abused you gain a 6th sense of sorts. You learn to walk into a room immediately assess people and threats. Sadly you also learn to notice the effects of abuse in other kids. You can tell right away when things are off even if they are trying to hide it.

mahana wrote,
>
> Growing up being severely abused you gain a 6th sense of sorts. You learn to walk into a room immediately assess people and threats.

Mahana,

I am very sorry that you were abused. Absolutely you have a better sensory awareness than most, from that.

Gavin DeBecker, who grew up in an abusive situation, founded a science and very lucrative business about predicting signs of imminent violence. His book, “the gift of fear” is a classic. It stresses the importance of listening to your gut instinct such as you did with the people in the car.

I hope you have a good life now, and that you find those books as interesting as I did!

-Melanie

That's a good catch, Mel. Historically I have done well once I've determined that a situation is an emergency, but I can be a little slow to figure that out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2019 06:23PM by summer.

summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's a good catch, Mel. Historically I have done
> well once I've determined that a situation is an
> emergency, but I can be a little slow to figure
> that out.

You and everyone, according to research. And the greater the number of people standing around doing nothing and not reacting, the more the situation is 'normalized' and people don't realize it IS a real emergency and they should DO Something! Thus, it is better to have a heart attack when there is one person around, than in a crowded street, unless some people are very proactive.

Great thread and topic. We see a lot of this phenomenon in road rage these days. For example, youtube post's vid's of people being confronted, their reactions, etc. It's true, some freeze, some fight.

I was driving home one day, and I saw a car veer off the road, through a farmers fence, and into a pond. The car started sinking, the person in the car was frantic, etc. I immediately jumped out of the car, dove into the pond, and got her out. Sometimes adrenalin just kicks in, and you're in the right place at the right time.

I am a big athletic guy, and what kills me is seeing people get bullied. I was in the gym the other day, and the couple next to me were working out. I don't know what this guys problem was, but he got mad at his girlfriend for not doing the exercise appropriately. He took the exercise basketball and sort of threw it at her, was rude to her. She said, "Why are you mad...I am doing the best that I can." I stopped what I was doing, and I said to him, "don't you ever do that again son. You treat this pretty lady with respect at all times." I waited for him to get tough, but he didn't. Another time I saw a man getting pushed around on the street in the city where I work. Don't know the situation, didn't care. I broke it up. Its helps that I weigh 300 and bench 400 by the way.

Anon..... Wrote:
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> I immediately jumped out of the car, dove into the pond, and got her out.

Wow! If I ever go off the road I hope you are around! Good job!

> Don't know the situation, didn't care. I broke it up. Its helps that I weigh 300 and bench 400 by the way.

Cool!!!!!

What a spectacular water rescue, Anon! Back in my youth, I was a lifeguard and had a few rescues under my belt, but never anything that good. Lifeguard training was really good for teaching me how to assess a situation and respond. But in all honesty, some of my assessments were, "I don't know for sure." So I had to do the best I could under the circumstances.

I commute a fair distance to work each day on some major highways. I'm continually fascinated by how drivers "compete," sometimes leading to road rage, or cooperate. I try to cooperate as much as possible, but there are always those who will take advantage. I've learned to shrug my shoulders and say that maybe that person's boss has read them the riot act about being to work on time.

When I got off my mission, graduated from YBU, was raising a family, I took a job as an animal control officer on weekends. It was a great job. Lot's of fun.

One day, I was called to apprehend a "put bull" that was terrorizing the neighbor hood. I pulled up to the house in my truck, got out, and walked to the drive. Suddenly, the huge pit bull started b-lining straight for me. I could have froze for an instance, but instead I turned around immediately and ran for my truck, leaping onto the hood, just as the bull lunged for my leg - missing my calf by inches. Glad I didn't hesitate to get the hell out of his path.

Fought. In pretty much all that I can remember over a life time.

Thanks everyone for sharing, I'm loving all the stories!! We'd have a great team of exmo's if the zombie apocalypse ever happens.. lol


mel, I'm already halfway through The Survivors Club.. good read! :) It's so interesting how religion ties into things as well.



I've been thinking about another incident that happened when I was working black friday at a big box store. We were all assigned different areas and had to stand around guarding merchandise on palettes that was wrapped in plastic.

The whole time I was standing around playing security guard and making small chat with other customers, this creepy middle aged dude in a beanie hat kept starring me up & down. I'm a fluffy kinda girl so it was just plain weird!

As soon as they announced it was go-time over the intercom, we had to quickly remove the plastic while being swarmed by a hoard of crazies. Next thing I know I'm being pushed up against the pallets and feel somebodies hand start at my ankles and slide it's way up & between my legs, over my butt and back down again. I didn't freeze but I was so shocked I didn't know what to do. Not to mention that being at work, I was afraid to make a big scene and didn't want to get in trouble for yelling at a customer. As soon as I could I turned him to the cops in the store but he was long gone.

It was a good learning experience though. If anything like that ever happens again I will definitely make a huge scene and embarrass the hell out of them. Even though it wasn't an emergency situation, in the right place and circumstance it could have easily escalated.

I've been told by family in law enforcement that most perpetrators count on the fact that people are shocked and don't know to respond when they are threatened. They also told me that most times they will test the waters and gain confidence by committing smaller offences before working up to bigger ones. Even knowing that I still stood there and didn't do anything. I hate to think I may have been a stepping stone for that beanie wearing sicko but I definitely wont make that mistake again.

mahana Wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------
> mel, I'm already halfway through The Survivors
> Club.. good read! :) It's so interesting how
> religion ties into things as well.

Glad you are enjoying the read!!! :)
>
>
>
> I've been thinking about another incident that
> happened when I was working Black Friday

You have had some rough jobs!!
>
> As soon as they announced it was go-time
> pallets and feel somebodies hand start

Omg how awful!! But you were constrained by you surroundings. Not your fault you couldn’t yell immediately!!!

Ugh . So awful for you. :(
>
> It was a good learning experience though. If
> anything like that ever happens again I will
> definitely make a huge scene and embarrass the
> hell out of them.

Yes you will! He was a customer that’s what held you back.
>
> I hate to think I may have been a stepping stone for that beanie wearing sicko but I definitely wont make that mistake again.

You are not responsible for his possible future actions. He is the criminal not you. As those books discuss it is hard to react really quickly even in life or death situations. Glad you are ok through all these situations!!!

I've seen video of a sudden, emergency situation in which 100% of the people reacted immediately, taking positive action!

Two seconds after the rear of the Brinks truck flew open and the cash spilled out, EVERYONE who saw it happen rushed to save that money!

It restored my faith in mankind.

People did not rest til it was all saved!

EVERYONE who saw it happen rushed to save that money!

Oh old dog you are funny!!!!!

Yeah, I wrote it for laughs, but the afterward I got to thinking about it (creaky stuff, thinking...) and it occurred to me that my hypothetical spoke to "motivation."

Most of us would not hesitate to bend over to pick up a $10 bill. If we saw two $100 bills being wafted by a gentle breeze, I think that 99% of the advertisers' favorite age group, 18-39, would jog a bit to catch up to them.

Money is a motivator; easy money/free money especially. No surprise.

But take a scenario where a group of people is walking by a gently flowing river, and a person is seen yelling and flailing away in the middle of that river, obviously a non-swimmer. Now we have people stopping to make a decision, whereas in the previous example there was no hesitancy.

Now training and self-awareness start to kick in. In almost every projected scenario, these are both factors.

And then in the case of personal danger coming at you, if you've rehearsed a plan, you have a better chance to put that plan into action, compared to having no plan and having to try to come up with one and constantly worrying that it's not a good plan.

Saucie and I have a simple plan when in public and gunfire breaks out. She grabs my belt at my spine and I head in a direction that looks like the best route out of danger while she watches my 'six'. Crude, but then so are we, in an elegant sort of way.

elderolddog Wrote:

> She grabs my belt at my spine and I head in a direction that looks like the best route out of danger while she watches my 'six'.


Hey, they say that having a plan is part of being prepared, so I think you're good!

I'm glad you saved your siblings. Well done.

The fireworks incident is also bad. A similar thing happened at a 4th of July party I attended. The men in the group put out the fire by holding a lawn bird that was clicking back and forth and carrying whatever they could grab and hold water. Thankfully there were no injuries and no serious damage. I don't trust fireworks. I've seen two other scary incidents and now I stay away from all fireworks except for watching them on TV;

A woman I knew told me some lady bumped into her in a grocery store and instead of excusing herself she was rude and on the offensive as though the other person had run into her.

She told the woman that she'd "better watch her back, because her child was worth $40,000 on the black market." She wasn't joking around.

When I lived on Staten Island a grandmother told me she turned her back from her grandchild who was in a stroller only momentarily in a Sears shopping mall, when some kidnapper ran off with her grandbaby in the stroller. The mall shut down the shopping center, but not before the kidnapper had made it almost to his car in the parking lot with the baby in tow.

It happened that fast, in the blink of an eye. Security tackled him in the parking lot.

When my kids were that small we rarely went to the mall except once or twice a year, if that. Children were a hot commodity in Staten Island and NYC. Parents were very over protective from necessity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2019 06:49PM by Amyjo.

There's the third kind of response: people who freeze up in the tightest possible spot (middle of an aisle or hallway), flip around to block everyone, and then start screaming nonsense in full panic mode arguing about what to do, but blocking any response to shut down the crisis.

My brother does this. His eyes open wide, irises shrink down to two little beady black holes, and he stares away somewhere, mouth going full blast screaming for an audience. It acts like some kind of arousal and explosive release, yelling like a bullhorn and clogging up a tight space, frozen, rooted in place, mental, stuck, and they don't want it to end.

I've dealt 30+ years with fire alarms, water problems (flooding bathrooms, etc...), and idiots walking up to me and shouting at me to call 9-1-1 (often don't stick around to take the police call and I have no idea what exactly is going on or where--they just walk off, but I get stuck with arguing with a 9-1-1 dispatcher insisting on information I don't have on the phone, and I can't get her to shut up).

Street do-gooder idiots can go full-blown mental when they see a drunk passed out and sleeping in a hedge on the ground. I always call regular police dispatch instead, or I'm in a fight with a 9-1-1 dispatcher arguing with me when I need to break away and call a service tech (a dozen drunks trapped in the elevator screaming, calling every extension in the building, all of them calling me to "DO SOMETHING!"), and I can't get an open phone line out to make the call because helpful people won't shut up and stay off the phone lines.

It impedes anyone's effort to properly deal with the situation and keeps victims from facing or running from a threat.

Yes, people who freeze and block exits, or just scream, also very bad for the survival of the group. That book "The survivor's club" that the OP and I were discussing, talks about that problem in evacuating an airplane. You literally have a matter of seconds to get out before you will be overcome by toxic smoke or fumes, and yet some are bending over getting their purses and carry-on luggage before they will move. It's really insane.

Sorry about your dealings with idiots too, snagglepuss. Hopefully you will never be on a going-down plane with those idiots!

I think everyone is instinctually a little different.
Many people in my family tend to freeze, including my husband.

I Fight.

I'm generally a shy, polite, quiet, a non-confrontational person who doesn't overreact to people and their B.S.

There are circumstances when there is an accident, a threatening incidence or a crisis, or if someone I care about is being attacked or offended that I will spring into action and jump to someone's defence or aid, call 911, whatever is needed.


Fortunately (so far), I've been able to make the right choices and it hasn't bitten me in the butt.

I've wondered why I'm so quick to react and I think it's partly because I'm the eldest of 4 girls, (I couldn't hide behind brothers waiting to be protected)...and I grew up in a volatile home and tried to be the mediator and a peacemaker, breaking up fights.

My family believes it's because we descend from Ukrainian Cossacks on one side and Vikings on the other side. It's a source of family humour.