Maybe God is on the Mormons side and thinks the Catholic Church is really the Whore of the Earth he talked about in his bedtime story.

The Tabernacle in Provo burned and they bulldozed it.
Notre Dame has stood for 900 years. The Temple in Oklahoma City had to be torn down and reconstructed in less than 20 years.

You're assuming god is responsible?

Dead Cat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You're assuming god is responsible?

Kind of.
I believe "god" is short for "Nature"
Nature reclaimed the roof, which should have never been built out of unprotected wood.
God (Nature) wants us all dead,
to return to plasma,
from whence we came,
stardust,
From the black hole
singularity
Balanced
between super symmetry
nothing
and everything



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2019 10:53PM by koriwhore.

As usual, I agree 100% with Koriwhore.

Sooner or later, every particle in the universe will transmogrify into a form and shape incomprehensible to our finite minds.

In that future age, 5 billion years from now, when the sun's hydrogen is nearly depleted, and its circumference has swelled into a red giant, and as its massive size engulfs our planet into oblivion, I imagine that whatever creatures occupy the surface we now tread will not care one bit about the fate of a long-extinct human species and our insignificant religions.

Aloysius Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As usual, I agree 100% with Koriwhore.
>
> Sooner or later, every particle in the universe
> will transmogrify into a form and shape
> incomprehensible to our finite minds.
>
> In that future age, 5 billion years from now, when
> the sun's hydrogen is nearly depleted, and its
> circumference has swelled into a red giant, and as
> its massive size engulfs our planet into oblivion,
> I imagine that whatever creatures occupy the
> surface we now tread will not care one bit about
> the fate of a long-extinct human species and our
> insignificant religions.

Yup. I've been to Norte Dame. I've seen more cathedrals than I care to remember but Norte Dame stands out because of it's unique stone work, the flying buttresses and of course those big, wonderful rose windows.

The building was showing its age. You could see extreme erosion on some of the stone carvings. Parts of the stone had fallen off. I remember the tour guid saying pollution was a problem and was speeding up the decay of the building.

If you have ever owned any property then you know nature is always trying to reclaim it. It's a non stop process of keeping the roof, the paint and the windows in good condition. Anything made of wood is especially vulnerable to the elements. Moisture always seems to find it's way in especially in humid or rainy locations.

It's pretty amazing the oak frame of the roof lasted almost 900 years. Not only lasting that amount of time but lasting through numerous revolutions and wars. Paris has had numerous riots and revolutions. Paris has been bombed and shelled. Wood just doesn't last. Most things made of wood tend to disappear.

But you are right. Nothing on this rock we live on lasts forever. The day will come the whole planet gets consumed by our sun.

Very true. They are vowing to rebuild it but seriously a medival oak roof? I can imagine that the trusses would be like whole trunks. The planks are not cut to standard 1970s ACME standards.
Do they plan to bulldoze the Black Forest? Where on earth can
they go to get medeval oak that is going to span 80 feet or so? I'm guessing they'll have to settle for Brazilian Oak from the Amazon, which just isn't the real stuff.

I was reading about the wood used to build the roof structure. Thousands of trees were cut from old-growth forests, many of which were 300 to 400 years old when they were killed.

I'm hearing they will use the oak timbers from mothballed ships.

I would like to see them use steel beams instead.

"Nature reclaimed the roof, which should have never been built out of unprotected wood."

Yes. The builders needed look no further than Flamestop dot c0m.

Too late now. They should have taken the fire threat seriously when they originally designed the structure.

Better yet, they should have used carbon fiber beams instead of cutting down 52 acres of oaks.

Bunch of bumpkins, those 12th century French.

Pun Alert!!

N.D. was just the warm-up

but Quasimodo has a hunch

There Hugo again.

I read it was likely an electrical short.
That or a professional job made to look like an accident.
Maybe the Mormon Danites decided it was time to kick the "Latter Days" into high gear by burning down the "Great and Abominable Whore of the Earth".

He had four gallons of gas, two cans of lighter fluid, and lighters. He was spotted by security; police were summoned, and he was arrested. He stated he was "just passing through" to get to his van which was out of gas, which turned out to be false.

So if he was just "passing through," that means St. Patricks was still open to the public. Perhaps he was planning to commit his deed later, after closing? The matter is under investigation, with motive either undetermined or not disclosed. Interstingly, he is a graduate of Boston College, a nominally Jesuit university.

https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/marc-lamparello/

The second-oldest cathedral in France was set afire recently. The arsonist hid in the organ, came out when the church was closed, and set the fire. Thee has been an epidemic of fires, and vandalism, in France against Christian churches lately with religious icons and symbols particularly targeted.

https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

The Newsweek article says, "and officials don't know why."
Yeah, right.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He had four gallons of gas, two cans of lighter
> fluid, and lighters. He was spotted by security;
> police were summoned, and he was arrested. He
> stated he was "just passing through" to get to his
> van which was out of gas, which turned out to be
> false.
>
> So if he was just "passing through," that means
> St. Patricks was still open to the public. Perhaps
> he was planning to commit his deed later, after
> closing? The matter is under investigation, with
> motive either undetermined or not disclosed.
> Interstingly, he is a graduate of Boston College,
> a nominally Jesuit university.
>
> https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/marc-lamparello/
>
> The second-oldest cathedral in France was set
> afire recently. The arsonist hid in the organ,
> came out when the church was closed, and set the
> fire. Thee has been an epidemic of fires, and
> vandalism, in France against Christian churches
> lately with religious icons and symbols
> particularly targeted.
>
> https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-ch
> urches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue
> -1370800
>
> The Newsweek article says, "and officials don't
> know why."
> Yeah, right.

It could be a way to foment civil war,
Hopefully leading to a great restructuring of the patriarchal oligarcy that came up with $700million in less than a day, but can't seem to deal with giving garbage collectors a raise.

koriwhore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> It could be a way to foment civil war,
> Hopefully leading to a great restructuring of the
> patriarchal oligarcy that came up with $700million
> in less than a day, but can't seem to deal with
> giving garbage collectors a raise.

"...to foment civil war, hopefully leading..."

I hope I'm misunderstanding you, but it seems you're endorsing a civil war? The last one we had solves some nasty problems (notably chattel slavery), left other ones still to be solved, and cost more American lives than all other US wars, combined. No thanks1

As I understand it, the donations for the Notre Dame rebuild (now $1B+) have come from governments, foundations, individuals all sorts of people and sources.

I imagine garbage collectors' wages vary widely.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> He had four gallons of gas, two cans of lighter
> fluid, and lighters. He was spotted by security;
> police were summoned, and he was arrested. He
> stated he was "just passing through" to get to his
> van which was out of gas, which turned out to be
> false.
>
> So if he was just "passing through," that means
> St. Patricks was still open to the public. Perhaps
> he was planning to commit his deed later, after
> closing? The matter is under investigation, with
> motive either undetermined or not disclosed.
> Interstingly, he is a graduate of Boston College,
> a nominally Jesuit university.
>
> https://heavy.com/news/2019/04/marc-lamparello/
>
> The second-oldest cathedral in France was set
> afire recently. The arsonist hid in the organ,
> came out when the church was closed, and set the
> fire. Thee has been an epidemic of fires, and
> vandalism, in France against Christian churches
> lately with religious icons and symbols
> particularly targeted.
>
> https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-ch
> urches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue
> -1370800
>
> The Newsweek article says, "and officials don't
> know why."
> Yeah, right.

Maybe that's why the LDS church doesn't allow any cooking in their kitchens. Looks like these catholic BBQ's have gotten out of hand.

"and officials don't know why.""



Uh oh ... here comes yet another unfounded conspiracy theory.

Which is grossly unreported. A statue of the Virgin Mary was decapitated in the village of Marhles yesterday.The statue was cast iron--the desecrators had to bring some serious equipment to pull that off (pun unintended). Statues of Mary are especially popular targets. Two were decapitated in Paloma last month, more in Indonesia.

That this happens so much in France is ironic. I'm no international sophisticate, but I gather only the Scandinavian countries are more secular than France.

France has a long history of periodic attacks on the church. During phases of the Revolution, the purges were extremely sanguinary before being curtailed when the otherwise bloodthirsty Robespierre gained control.

But anticlerical campaigns continued to occur every couple of decades up through the First World War and elements of that hostility to the RCC continue as features of France's political topography. What is happening in that country now is, by its historical standards, not extreme.

On the broader question, I don't think your intimation that secular countries are more antagonistic towards religion than religious ones is necessarily correct. Secular states like those of Scandinavia are pretty tolerant of religion because religion does not appear a threat: live and let live has become possible. People don't care one way or the other.

It is in religious societies, or societies where the memory of religious problems is strong, or where governments are intentionally creating quasi-religious political movements that anti-clerical forces are most robust. France, in short, is more susceptible to religious purges because the RCC cast such a long shadow over it.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...before being
> curtailed when the otherwise bloodthirsty
> Robespierre gained control.

Interestingly, Assad, Qaddafi and Saddam were strong protectors of minority religions.
>
> I don't think your
> intimation that secular countries are more
> antagonistic towards religion than religious ones
> is necessarily correct.

I think you misread me. Highly irreligious societies can go either way.

Secular states like those
> of Scandinavia are pretty tolerant of religion
> because religion does not appear a threat: live
> and let live has become possible. People don't
> care one way or the other.

A big difference is that Scandinavia was mostly Protestant, with stronger traditions of religious tolerance ("priesthood of all believers," etc.) than RC France. Although a generalization, Protestants' attention is directed towards God, doctrine, and a personal relationship; Catholicism is towards their priesthood and church. I refer to our previous exchange on sacredotalism.
>
> It is in religious societies, or societies where
> the memory of religious problems is strong, or
> where governments are intentionally creating
> quasi-religious political movements that
> anti-clerical forces are most robust. France, in
> short, is more susceptible to religious purges
> because the RCC cast such a long shadow over it.

Macron is intentionally creating a quasi-religious political movement? News to me. That implies a blame-the-victim explanation: "If you weren't so offensively religious (or 'if your religious beliefs weren't so offensive'), this wouldn't have happened."

As I confessed, I'm an international incognizati. Perhaps you're right, French anti-Catholicism was knitted into the national DNA with their Revolution. Makes me grateful for the wisdom of our Founding Fathers, who incorporated Christian precepts into our nation and avoided sectarianism.

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Interestingly, Assad, Qaddafi and Saddam were
> strong protectors of minority religions.

That isn't because of respect for any religion. Those leaders who are based in minority religions or in minority regions, even more so when both are combined, protect those groups. The cases you raise demonstrate that pattern. The leaders wanted to keep their bases secure, and the religions were totally dependent and hence represented no threat to the regimes. Assad and Hussein would have turned against their religious base in an instant if it exerted any independence.


---------------
> I think you misread me. Highly irreligious
> societies can go either way.

I may misread you. But we could profibably debate what "irreligious societies" comprise.

What I mean is that psychologically and sociologically, totalitarian movements function a lot like religions. People lose themselves in larger movements and derive great emotional resonance from that identification. That leads to my somewhat idiosyncratic (although not unique, since this view is shared by many experts) functional definition of religion to include totalitarian movements. Within that framework, I wouldn't call communism or Nazism irreligious but rather see them as intensely religious.

In that scheme Scandinavia and Japan wold qualify as "irreligious"--they really don't care about religion--but that is not true of places where feelings about religion are still strong. France would fit somewhere towards the latter end of the spectrum.


-------------
> A big difference is that Scandinavia was mostly
> Protestant, with stronger traditions of religious
> tolerance ("priesthood of all believers," etc.)
> than RC France. Although a generalization,
> Protestants' attention is directed towards God,
> doctrine, and a personal relationship; Catholicism
> is towards their priesthood and church. I refer to
> our previous exchange on sacredotalism.

Historically that view isn't compelling. Protestant states were in many cases as intolerant and violent as Catholic ones. The first century of the Protestant era was stained by lots of inter-communal bloodshed, including the atrocious Anabaptist movement. The 30 Years War, which was both Catholic and Protestant and enormously destructive, presents a good example of what Sweden was capable of during its religious phase. The Treaty of Westphalia then gave princes the right to do whatever they wanted domestically, and in many cases the princes simply crushed religions they did not like. Even some of the founding groups in the US were fleeing from repressive Protestant countries.


---------------
> Macron is intentionally creating a quasi-religious
> political movement? News to me. That implies a
> blame-the-victim explanation: "If you weren't so
> offensively religious (or 'if your religious
> beliefs weren't so offensive'), this wouldn't have
> happened."

No, I did not mean to imply that Macron is trying to create a religious movement. My allusion there was to totalitarian movements, not to modern France, which is a different case in which the Catholic church was so powerful that it bore intense anti-Catholic feelings that remain vital even today.


---------
> Makes me grateful for the wisdom of
> our Founding Fathers, who incorporated Christian
> precepts into our nation and avoided sectarianism.

I agree about the wisdom of the Founders. They had seen the centuries of internecine slaughter engendered by powerful religions and were determined to avoid it. I would attribute less to divine inspiration, perhaps, than the influence of recent history and David Hume, but our conclusion is the same.

Not exactly.

France today is more susceptible because militant Islamists have easier access to France, thus making churches an easier target.

We need to stop whitewashing facts that are clearly staring us in the face - Islam and western values do not mix.

Wise up.

Islam and the West are incompatible? There you go again, ignoring the vast majority of Islam because it doesn't fit your conspiracy theory.

Of course Islam is part of the problem in France; of course immigration brings short-term adjustment problems as was the case when the various European waves washed up on US shores before ultimately transforming into pronounced advantages. But I think you are talking out of your hat in your overstatement about France (not to mention Russia and China and Southeast Asia). There are people here, Tom for one but also others who travel and work across Europe, who could offer actual experience and judgment rather than just warmed-up paranoia from State TV.

"Wise up" indeed.

Notre Dame is a Catholic cathedral, but is not owned by the CC. It's owned by the France

hmmmm... Is the France single?

Grammar Police? let me see your badge & I.D.

A grammar cop takes your writing, slams it up against the wall, and runs you in.
A grammar Nazi will burn an Oxford comma in your lawn.

A grammar cop, a grammar nazi, and an OED editor walked into a bar. . .

GNPE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Grammar Police? let me see your badge & I.D.


No! I was using the supplied material to make a joke! As constructed, one could say of the France, "is she owns the Notre Dame Cathedral, she must be rich, and if so, is the Frane single?"

You know, implying a romantic interest, hoping that the France is hot!

The French for France is La France. So The France seems ok.

Aside from Notre Dame ...

Why didn't God burn down the SL Temple instead of Paradise, CA ?

This proves that mormonism is true.

God didn't burn down Notre Dame

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God didn't burn down Notre Dame

How do you know?
Are you omniscient?
If God is omniscient, omnipotent, and good, then from whence cometh destruction, evil?

I am a Taoist.
I believe God is another word for "the way", "Nature"
I believe without destruction there would be no creation, they counterbalance each other to form a super symmetrical whole,
a singularity,
Tao

So the Zen answer to the problem of evil might be,
What is good if everything is good?
What is evil if everything is evil?

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thedesertrat1 Wrote:
> ----------------------------------
> What is good if everything is good?
> What is evil if everything is evil?

There is evil in the world, that hopefully we can all agree upon. But is Notre Dame burning down really evil? I mean, its a beautiful building, probably one of my favorite buildings. But nobody died, no kids got raped, this is not genocide. Those are evil.
Evil isnt just the opposite of good, that'd be bad.
Bad is when the roof of a cultural treasure burns to the ground.
Evil is way beyond bad. Like in the extreme, the Holocaust. Genocide, murder, child rape. Rape, and crimes against humanity.
A church burning on accident isn't evil.
But I'd say, somebody burning down a church out of hate, would qualify as evil.
But the line starts getting blurred from there. If it isn't a felony I'd say its probably not evil.
So why does God allow people to commit evil?
My answer as a Mormon would have been similar to my answer now, God is not a micro manager. God is good. God is great. And evil exists as a necessary counterbalance, kind of like a kite can't fly without resistance.

Agreed but if he did burn it down why did he wait 850 years?

Where did my comment go ????

I stated that God also did not blow up the Christian churches in Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday, causing numerous people to lose their lives.

Are we now not allowed to point out facts ????

Your comment may have been a response to a comment that was deleted. When an "upper" comment is removed, the responses also disappear. While I'm not an admin, they've stated in the past that this is both for technical reasons, and because when you remove the "upper" comment, the responses often don't make sense.

So, were you commenting directly in response to the OP, or replying to someone else? Maybe an admin will reply and let you know for sure.

My thoughts were that certain precautions were taken for the SLC Temple after learning the lessons from the first Nauvoo temple. Didn't that one burn down from a lightning strike in 1848, and then the remains were leveled by earthquake / hurricane / tornado a little while later? I know some blamed the fire on anti-Mormon arsonists.

I did some research a while back, and the temples at San Diego, Oquirrh Mountain, Bountiful (thrice), American Fork, Dallas, Provo, and Denver were all struck by lightning. The original 147-foot tower of the St. George Utah Temple was destroyed completely by a lightning bolt in Oct. 1878.

"In Senate testimony in the 19th century, it was alleged that Mormons were actually offering human sacrifice on the altars of the Salt Lake temple." (American Experience / Frontline: The Mormons, PBS, directed by Helen Whitney, part 1, act 6, aired Apr. 30, 2007.) My take was that when they got around to the SLC Temple, all occult safeguards were taken to obtain supernatural protection, if you believe in that sort of thing, like the way the Holy Mormon underwears are supposed to protect you.

As for Notre Dame, it is for me, the most memorable of all the sites in Paris I visited. What a place. There are two videos online of one guy and two flashes on the roof of the cathedral just before the blaze, and another of a man going from one end of a balcony to the other. Of course, the Paris prosecutors announce just hours after the conflagration was quenched, that arson was ruled out... I guess we'll have to stay tuned to learn whatever factoids TPTB want us to believe about this catastrophe.