I used to excuse the church leaders because they do some good things and teach some good principles. But my eyes have been opened over the years. I now see the church leaders for what they are - despicable men that propagate a lie to inflate their own bloated egos. They would rather see kids kill themselves than admit they are wrong and apologize. I am so happy I got out. I hope others find their way out too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2019 09:47PM by Atari.

After what they did to my daughter and the pain they inflicted on my family I have to agree.

I agree too. One can't simultaneously be a good person and denounce entire categories of people for who the circumstances of their birth.

They are evil, disagreeable, misguided, delusional, bigoted, creepy, misogynistic, puffed-up, cork-screwed, egotistical, shriveled-up, crazy-in-the-head, never-get-any, fire and brimstone ready, stewed prune-loving louts.

I love how you beat around the bush!

Nice work if you can get it.

Perfect descriptions,BYU Boner! I would add that they are probably a little bit psychotic too.

What took you so long? :)

I think that they are ordinary people, no different than you or I. Yes, they are accomplished in business or the professions, but so are many other people who are not Mormon. They have been raised in, and have flourished in, a rather restrictive thinking system. They can't see their way out of it.

I don't think that their opinions are of any more worth than anyone else's.

I think they are trapped in a system they didn’t create. They are cowards, not evil.

But are cowards excused from the evil they, in their cowardice, perpetrate? Were cowardly Nazi prison employees less than evil for killing Jewish inmates? Are the Catholic hierarchy absolved from responsibility for protecting and covering up their subordinates when they molest children simply due to their lack of personal integrity?

In my book, cowardice is not a license to commit evil. It is perhaps an explanation for why the tolerate or enact evil, but it does not obviate that evil.

If one knowingly commits evil, he is evil.

I don’t think it’s that easy. According to experiments like Milgram’s, most of us will kill if ordered to by authority. Does that make most of us evil? Of those that stand up and do the right thing, the church filters those.

This is how we got the current crop of “apostles” in what essentially is an emotional manipulation racket. That’s the job, so why wouldn’t they be evil?

Good and evil are more circumstantial than most of us want to admit. The key to a good society is to set up the right circumstances.

I don't disagree with your main point.

But a point I would raise regards those who, as you say, will under the guidance of an authority figure, commit atrocities. You imply that that tendency, that fact, means that atrocities do not necessarily indicate that the perpetrator of atrocity is evil.

Can I not turn that around? The atrocity--the killing of an innocent, the torturing of a suspect, the driving of the truck to the gas chambers--is per se evil. And the ability of most humans to perpetrate such things demonstrates that people too are evil, or capable thereof. Most people's consciences are not strong enough to prevent them from doing profound wrong.

The principle that individuals are morally responsible for "going along with the crowd" is well established. It was part of the Nuremberg trials and it is part of the US military code. I think that is correct. If a person commits evil, or stands aside when she might have intervened to stop it, she too is evil.

So the apostles are responsible for what they allow to continue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 12:38PM by Lot's Wife.

Like a slow burn, they became more corrupt the longer they stewed in it.

They know they are living a lie.

And that makes them complicit in a coverup of great magnitude, considering the ginormity of the scam TSCC is perpetrating.

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Like a slow burn, they became more corrupt the
> longer they stewed in it.
>
> They know they are living a lie.
>
> And that makes them complicit in a coverup of
> great magnitude, considering the ginormity of the
> scam TSCC is perpetrating.

I agree with this. ^^^^

They know it's all a lie, but still send out missionaries that occasionally get killed or put in jail (Russia) to promote Horney Joe and cult. That is evil.

They tell sigle mom's to suck it up and pay tithes instead of taking the kids on vacation. evil

They tell parents to pay instead of paying the kids college. EVIL

When I used to look at the Church Almanac and see the photos of these guys, you could literally see the evil in them, like they were hagridden or ill-starred. I never once saw a photo of any G.A. and thought, "what a man of God he looks like."

Srsly, has anyone ever looked at a photo of Darth Dallin and thought how holy he looks? Not that you should judge a book by its cover, but going with your gut feeling has proven to be often right in my travels.

If lying, greed and power grubbing are evil, they're evil.

But they are doing it for the lord and in his holy name!

And they are covered by their second annointings.

Those at the top level lie, are greedy and crave the power grubbing glory.

me he doesn't look evil. For ol' Al, have you been on this board for very long? Have you read of the evil they have perpetrated to many members of this board?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2019 08:03PM by cl2.

I can't be the only one who had great bishops in a good ward!

So I'm guessing we're talking about those ecclesiastics who receive a 'stipend' from the church. That probably ought to include MPs, but I had a great MP, if only because he was basically completely hands-off.

Are there bad, evil, duplicitous, creepy office holders in the church? Sure. And pretty much, I think it's from this group that the current evil bunch at the top choose their successors.

But there are still a few good men out there, and hopefully, like Sam Young, et. al., they'll find their way out.

Yes, I think the good ones do find their way out. The higher one gets in the organization, the rarer such good ones become.

At some point, though, personal virtue is no longer enough. Consider Uchdorf, whom I will ignorantly use as an example of someone who is a good man. At some point he presumably learns so many falsehoods, so many unethical teachings and actions, that he becomes responsible simply because he refuses to denounce the organization and walk away.

If there is such a point at which moral responsibility attaches, it varies from person to person. I just think all of the apostles are probably beyond that point and hence share in the sins of the organization in the same way that senior Catholic leaders are inculpated in their institution's enormous crimes.

You are right, elderolddog, but I thought the OP was talking about the GAs.

So did I, cl2, but some people have branded all the mormon leaders, obviously including bishops...

In my case, they REFUSED to invoke their own teachings 'principles' in favor of my lying wife in a vicious divorce; in effect, they thru us Both under the bus of duplicity.

when pushed up against the core values of Honesty, Kindness, Repentance & Forgiving, they choked, it was a wholesale cop-out.

I agree with nearly everything stated above. I believe for the senior management of LDS Inc. it is the love of power that is their primary motivation to remain in their positions. It is more addicting than cocaine. People can quit cocaine addictions. It seems it is rare for a person (a male usually) to voluntarily leave a position that gives prestige, money and adoring fans. Look at the Watchtower, Scientology, and other cult leaders etc. and observe how uncommon it is for a man to quit those organizations at a high level. Truth and integrity are meaningless to those leaders. That does make them evil in my opinion.

Eric K Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Truth and integrity are meaningless
> to those leaders. That does make them evil in my
> opinion.

Truth and integrity are meaningless at a certain (I don't know where) high level of leading human organizations. We are hardwired for tracking around 150 individuals. After that individuals are leading faceless and nameless masses.

But cults and corporations will tell us God or human ingenuity can overcome the 150 limit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/25/2019 12:25PM by Elder Berry.