Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 08:13PM

Why?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 08:19PM

All particles are fields. And probability waves. Within the current model



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2019 08:41PM by dogblogger.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 26, 2019 08:44PM

At least get the name right. It isn't the "God Particle," it is the "Goddamn Particle." The scientist who came up with that name was an atheist, not a believer.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 01:16AM

Hahahaha, where is your God particle now?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 01:29PM

Precisely.

Goddamn it, where did I leave that particle?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 03:29AM

Lederman was quipping about both uses, not just the term, God Particle. But the one he intended, and the one he went with from the start was the God Particle. He said so himself, and explained his reasoning for it.

"Higgs, Englert, and their colleagues theorized in 1964 that there must be something that explains why other particles have mass, why things hold together, why you and I are able to exist. That something is the Higgs boson.


But “God particle”? The name was the invention of Leon Lederman, himself a great physicist, who used it as the title of a popular book in 1993.

Scientists and clerics almost uniformly say they dislike it. Even Peter Higgs said he wished Lederman hadn’t done it. “I have to explain to people it was a joke,” Higgs said in a rare interview with The Guardian in 2007. “I'm an atheist, but I have an uneasy feeling that playing around with names like that could be unnecessarily offensive to people who are religious." [He was attuned to being respectful of others beliefs. Good for him. That makes him more than a great scientist. It means he was a mensch.]

The nickname, though, is a deft little contribution to the communication of science. Because of it, countless more people have heard of the Higgs particle, why it matters, and how much effort went into finding it. The name is catchy enough that, as physicists closed in on proof of its existence, people searched online for “God particle” more often than they did for “Higgs.”

Lederman was at once playful and ponderous about his nickname for the Higgs: “This boson is so central to the state of physics today, so crucial to our final understanding of the structure of matter, yet so elusive . . .” he wrote in his book, continuing: "Why God Particle? Two reasons. One, the publisher wouldn’t let us call it the Goddamn Particle, given its villainous nature and the expense it is causing. [more joking here] And two, there is a connection, of sorts, to another book, a much older one. . . .” The Higgs was a concept of almost Biblical proportions. [serious, thoughtful contemplative moment.]

Higgs bosons could be described as making up an invisible field of energy through which other particles fly, slowed by it as it imbues them with mass. Some writers have likened a field of Higgs particles to molasses—except that molasses can be seen with the naked eye and doesn’t decay in a tiny fraction of a second.

To detect the Higgs, the United States began to build a giant atom smasher beneath the Texas prairie in the 1980s, but the project became a logistical nightmare, and a $2 billion black hole, before Congress scrapped it in 1993. Physicists moved on to CERN, the vast European laboratory in the Alps, to continue the search. They weren’t successful until 2012.

Much of it was messy, expensive business. Lederman’s nickname, in contrast, was lyrical. It gave an arcane piece of physics a sense of wonder, something that happens when science elegantly solves a problem." In other words, a fitting tribute. No other name would have done it justice in the same amount of lettering.

Lederman knew exactly what he meant when he named it. It was not taken out of context, it was as he intended it from the start. And he expressed it as much.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2013/10/09/the-higgs-boson-wins-the-nobel-why-we-call-it-the-god-particle/#5ec48edc3cbf

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 04:37AM

Thanks, Amyjo, for another erudite contribution. It is helpful to get your perspective on the work of another of your prestigious cousins.

I wonder, however, about the wisdom of citing Forbes as the basis for a scientific assertion. If, for example, you had searched the RfM archives you would have learned that this topic has been well explored and additionally have encountered more authoritative sources than a superficial business publication.

You would have seen, for instance, that the "Goddamn Particle" story I recounted above is attested to by a number of other scientists who interacted routinely with Lederman.* Yet on the other hand, you may have had difficulty penetrating their prose if your reading of the Lederman quotation in your own excerpt is any indication. For you quote him as saying--the source, in case you have any interest in perusing it, is Lederman's own book from 1993 (page 22)--the editors wouldn't let him go with his preferred choice of "Goddamn Particle." If you cannot grasp the meaning of that sentence, it may be asking too much for you to understand what Lederman's colleagues offer.

I know that you have access to a range of unique sources, including your supernatural experiences, your spiritual affinity with your (very impressive) cousins, and the Hallmark Channel, and in due course I may need to bow to their superior wisdom. But until you introduce such elucidation, I hope you'll forgive me if I go with what Lederman and his colleagues said as opposed to the staff at Forbes.

Finally, I note with interest your concluding homily.

"Lederman knew exactly what he meant when he named it. It was not taken out of context, it was as he intended it from the start. And he expressed it as much."

I couldn't agree more, Amyjo. "From the start" Lederman wanted to use the name "Goddamn Particle." As witnessed by his own books and by his fellow scientists, that was his choice until overruled by an editor who didn't want to offend believers.




*https://www.livescience.com/17489-god-particle-higgs-boson.html

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 12:47AM

Smashing stuff together to see what happens is definitely a guy thing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Humberto ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 09:20AM

Some of the best explosives engineers I know are women.

And, speaking of the goddamn particle, look up Sau Lan Wu. You may change your mind on your comment above.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 03:01AM

One of my step-sisters was the first woman to receive an award for helping to draft a nuclear bomb. She got the bragging rights to that @ los alamos nuclear reactor plant circa 1980s or thereabouts.

She's retired now and enjoying it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 11:41AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson

>>The Higgs boson is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics, produced by the quantum excitation of the Higgs field,[8][9] one of the fields in particle physics theory.

Perhaps the board's owner will have something to say; I'm not a physicist, but he is. I also haven't seen my friend Josh around lately.

However, given that the 2013 Nobel Prize was awarded to François Englert and Peter Higgs, count me among the believers.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 06:25PM

SL Cabbie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson
>
> >>The Higgs boson is an elementary particle in the
> Standard Model of particle physics, produced by
> the quantum excitation of the Higgs field,[8][9]
> one of the fields in particle physics theory.
>
> Perhaps the board's owner will have something to
> say; I'm not a physicist, but he is. I also
> haven't seen my friend Josh around lately.
>
> However, given that the 2013 Nobel Prize was
> awarded to François Englert and Peter Higgs,
> count me among the believers.

You are the one person to answer the question. And I appreciate you answering the second question, why?

I believe the scientific predominate theories. And I believe Dark Matter is still unexplained and it accounts for 95% of our universe.
Meaning its a vast mystery.
Any wonder most people can't handle that notion, so they just call that mystery, god?
Logos
Or Tao?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 06:26PM by schrodingerscat.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 06:33PM

God, logos, Tao: these words have established meanings that are unnecessarily distorted when used as you and Kori do.

I prefer Blueberry Pancakes. Blueberry Pancakes are God and the universe. Blueberry Pancakes also works as invective, as in “Blueberry Pancakes you in your Blueberry Pancakes.”



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 06:33PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 06:39PM

>
>...you and Lori...
>

If schrodingerscat and koriwhore are not the same person, I'll eat your dinner!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 06:57PM

No, you'll eat my Blueberry Pancakes.

Plato was a fan of Blueberry Pancakes. He called them streptococci. Who am I to disagree?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2019 06:58PM by Lot's Wife.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 07:14PM

Plato schmato.

Until you have studied at the feet of Peristalsis, I cannot consider you a proper dinner guest. There, I said it!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 07:59PM

I stick my tongue out at you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 09:05PM

"In the beginning was the Logos (Tao in Chinese). The Logos (Tao) was with God. The (Logos) was God." John 1:1 in original Greek version, before it got lost in translation into English.
God, Logos and Tao are all synonymous.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 09:10PM

You need to end all of your declarative sentences with: "...in my head".

Then we'd all nod and agree with you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 11:15PM

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You need to end all of your declarative sentences
> with: "...in my head".
>
> Then we'd all nod and agree with you.

Seems obvious to me.
I can't help it if its not apparent to you.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 11:25PM

Can't help ... or won't help?

I think you're prejudiced against atheists.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 09:18PM

The Tao is not the logos. It simply isn't. You found one translation, among thousands, that made that leap and have fastened on it like a dog on a bone.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 07:23PM

i did answer both parts of the question.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: April 27, 2019 11:30PM

dogblogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i did answer both parts of the question.


You said, "All particles are fields. And probability waves. Within the current model"

How does that answer the question, "do you believe in the God Particle?"
Yes or No?
The second question is, "Why?"

Only SL Cabbie answered both questions.

I answered it, yes.
I believe in god, which to me is something like the God Particle minus the particle, since it (Higgs Boson) is more of a field than a particle. A field that permeates everything and is everywhere and nowhere all at once, up until we found it, by slowing it down long enough for it to matter, become a particle.
The way I understand it from Peter Higgs is that the Boson is a universal symmetry smashing field that creates all the building blocks of matter, starting with the God Particle and on up to Ghost Patricles (Neutrinos) all the way up to protons and electrons, stardust, all of which make up all the atoms, which make up matter.
Engergy slowed down long enough to matter. E=mC^2 and m=E/c^2, matter is just energy slowed down to almost nothing and Energy is just matter sped up by the speed of light (sq'd). We live in a super symetrical world that is created by the God Particle, minus the particle, god.
That's why I believe in it.
Because I believe in Nobel Prize-winning physicists Peter Higgs and Leon M. Lederman who gave the particle its name.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 11:11AM

Here's a link (some of the others don't seem to have shed their LDS upbringings, and they're only doing a variation of "I know this is true because...")

>>And I believe Dark Matter is still unexplained and it accounts for 95% of our universe. Meaning its [sic] a vast mystery.

The actual figure is given at around 27%, and the subject of "dark energy" is discussed.

https://home.cern/science/physics/dark-matter

Your figure of 5% seems to come from this:

>>The matter we know and that makes up all stars and galaxies only accounts for 5% of the content of the universe! But what is dark matter? One idea is that it could contain "supersymmetric particles" – hypothesized particles that are partners to those already known in the Standard Model. Experiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) may provide more direct clues about dark matter.

>>Dark energy makes up approximately 68% of the universe and appears to be associated with the vacuum in space. It is distributed evenly throughout the universe, not only in space but also in time – in other words, its effect is not diluted as the universe expands. The even distribution means that dark energy does not have any local gravitational effects, but rather a global effect on the universe as a whole. This leads to a repulsive force, which tends to accelerate the expansion of the universe. The rate of expansion and its acceleration can be measured by observations based on the Hubble law. These measurements, together with other scientific data, have confirmed the existence of dark energy and provide an estimate of just how much of this mysterious substance exists.

I won't pretend to truly understand this; I'm just the reporter, but I do my homework.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogblogger ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 12:43AM

its not a question if belief. as all particles are fields it answers the field question. The current model comment explains why as that is where the prediction of said boson originates.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 04:03AM

The science or the grammar.

"Dogblogger" wrote: "its not a question if belief. as all particles are fields it answers the field question"

Cabdriver Philosopher Advice: Avoid PUI... Or at least the "appearance" of PUI...

Particles are not fields. So-called "excitations" in quantum fields create particles.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2019/01/13/ask-ethan-how-do-quantum-fields-create-particles/#1dc14dd2330a

>>So if everything is fields, then what is a particle? You may have heard a phrase before: that particles are excitations of quantum fields. In other words, these are quantum fields not in their lowest-energy — or zero-point — state, but in some higher-energy state. But exactly how this works is a bit tricky.

>>Up until this point, we've been thinking of fields in terms of empty space: the quantum fields we're discussing exist everywhere. But particles don't exist everywhere at once. On the contrary, they're what we call localized, or confined to a particular region of space.

Particles are not fields; they are "excitations" of the fields.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 03:42AM

It's not a matter of believing in something as minute or vast as a field ie, invisible force throughout the universe so vast made up of particles giving them mass. As in understanding it and the principles governing it.

It's a field of study IMO and a burgeoning field at that. The more we know, the more there is to know. Isn't that a fact of life and science?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: koriwhore ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 08:13AM

Amyjo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not a matter of believing in something as
> minute or vast as a field ie, invisible force
> throughout the universe so vast made up of
> particles giving them mass. As in understanding it
> and the principles governing it.
>
> It's a field of study IMO and a burgeoning field
> at that. The more we know, the more there is to
> know. Isn't that a fact of life and science?

Yeah, it's a totally cool fact, that we live in a universe that is mostly a mystery, but the tiny bit we know about, is amazing, so what there is still left to find out is an even greater mystery left to solve.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: April 28, 2019 11:38AM

I'm not real sure what I'm supposed to believe. That it exists? Am I supposed to pray to it? Who is the god particle's prophet? What are it's sacred texts? Do I build a house of worship to the god particle or is this something where I can just build a small chapel in my house? Will it die off without my adoration? Or does my adoration just make it more powerful?

Oh and if I do believe in the god particle with that make it so that I'm better than everyone else? Do I get to lord over others who haven't seen the light yet? Does it mean that my particles get to come back as a star instead of a rock?

I've got to know this stuff.

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **     **  **    **  **     **   ******   **     ** 
  **   **   **   **   **     **  **    **   **   **  
   ** **    **  **    **     **  **          ** **   
    ***     *****     **     **  **           ***    
   ** **    **  **    **     **  **          ** **   
  **   **   **   **   **     **  **    **   **   **  
 **     **  **    **   *******    ******   **     **