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Posted by: Screen Name ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 09:37AM

Help me to find the glowing quotes of the inspired LDS leaders about the opportunities offered through Scouting.

https://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-na-boy-scouts-child-sex-abuse-20190515-story.html

The Lord was stunned that He was deceived decades ago.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/03/23/truth-lds-scouting/

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 09:47AM

The demise of traditional scouting is a tragedy for all. It teaches toughness, survival, independence, helping others and self-reliance. In today's world where weakness, victimhood and dependency are favored, these are a must.

The child abuse angle is of course a tragedy and should have besn dealt with properly. However, it is worth pointing out that child abuse is rampant in public schools, boarding schools, soccer etc camps, band camps, music tuition, you name it.

By getting rid of scouting altogether on the basis of one horrific failure, we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. If we do so, why don't we throw out public schooling as well? Public schooling is a failure, and treated them as fresh meat for predators of both the sexual, physical and political varieties

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 10:05AM

The church is getting rid of scouting because scouts now accept gays and females.

The church wants to use its own system world wide to better indoctrinate the kids. Teach them to blindly follow the profit and to focus on missionary prep.

Also the church no longer wants or needs stro g independent men for leaders. They want corporate yes men.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 10:40AM

Heartless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The church is getting rid of scouting because
> scouts now accept gays and females.

Gays (cough) have (cough) always (cough) been (cough) in the (cough) Boy (cough) Scouts. Even the founder, Baden Powell seems to have been gay.

Accepting females is wrong IMHO. Why? Two reasons:

* It destroys already existing female organizations by poaching their members. Girls want to join boys' schools, orgs etc, very few boys want to make the trip the other way.
* There are even more sexual issues resulting from mixed troops. Teenage girls coming back from overnight camping trips with a bun in the oven - that kind of thing.

A merger with between male and female orgs would have been better.

> The church wants to use its own system world wide
> to better indoctrinate the kids. Teach them to
> blindly follow the profit and to focus on
> missionary prep.

True. But public schools indoctrinate our children as well though, and not always openly.

> Also the church no longer wants or needs stro g
> independent men for leaders. They want corporate
> yes men.

This is true.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 11:25AM

I totally agree. Public schools are a big failure as well and we should disband them as well until we can all agree on something better. They are set up to teach a bunch of worthless info that below average kids will never need to know. And all this so that the talking heads can think they are making more engineers and scientists out of less than bright teenagers.

but the difference between public schools and scouting is that scouting doesn't require it's staff to be educated and there isn't a background check. These safe gaurds have helped protect children in public schools against sex abuse. It's rare for the credentialed staff to abuse a kid. What's more common is for special ed kids to abuse a teacher. But in scouting the abuse is more rampant.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:19PM

Tell us some "worthless info that below average kids will never need to know".

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:25PM

But wasn't Hie agreeing with macaRomney when he said "I weep for the education of some Americans?"

Wait--

No, he was not.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:25PM

LOL! I know some "special ed" kids who are engineers.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:26PM

Half of the human population is below average.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 01:15PM

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tell us some "worthless info that below average
> kids will never need to know".

I gave some examples above.

It is far more valuable to know about the geography of other countries and their languages than to learn that Bismarck is the capital of North Dakota. (Did I get that right?)

When I say valuable, I mean in terms of culture, economics etc. You can use this knowledge for dealing with the rest of the world.

As for sports, exercise and fitness is good, but they should be prioritized over education. Fitness and sport can be achieved with fairly minimal facilities and without having to buy a dozen expensive pieces of football kit. The money should be plowed into laboratories for science and information technology. And by the latter I mean programming and construction not looking up crappy websites to plagiarize your homework.

Oh and another thing - stop feeding the kids junk food!

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 07:29PM

Jordan, my urban school system is hiring. They would be more than happy to put your college degree to work. Of course they would insist that you attain a master's degree or better in the field of education along with acceptable test scores on a variety of assessments. Please feel free to get your (additional?) graduate degree in the field of administration since you are so eager to enact change.

I absolute LOVE when people feel free to mouth off about the public schools but are not willing to be a part of the change.

So feel free to come and show us how it's done, Jordan. I'm looking forward to it. Oh, but wait. You are TOO SPECIAL to be a school teacher (Is that right?) This is someone else's job, someone else's responsibility -- someone that you can feel free to disrespect and endlessly put down.

That's how it goes, doesn't it? Here's a hint: There is no box on the teacher application that inquires about your political beliefs. What the school systems are looking for is a desire to serve.

Of course, you need to be ready to deal with some of our country's most needy children. I've visited student homes where there was no food in the refrigerator. Where there was no furniture other than a couple of mattresses in the house. I've had students with serious and untreated mental health issues. I had one very sweet kid whose mom held him over a bridge, threatening to drop him (and yes, he was removed from the home.) Can you imagine what it is like to try to teach these kids?...to try to make up for the massive deficits in their lives?

Do you have the right stuff to teach, Jordan?...because I'm thinking you don't. You sure have a mouth on you, though. You can talk the talk, but not walk the walk.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 07:36PM

Ouch!

It takes a lot to bring out the sardonic wit from our mild-mannered and patient sage, summer.

I wonder if my illness is electronically communicable or you are suffering a spontaneous outbreak, says Lot's Wife, clutching anxiously at a strand of imitation pearls.

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Posted by: summer ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 07:39PM

:)

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 07:41PM

As you know, you have my deepest respect.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2019 07:42PM by Lot's Wife.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 09:59AM

How so ?

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 10:32AM

Look at the illiterates and idiots it turns out. People who can barely read. Many of the best students at American universities are now taken from other countries such as China, where despite being a Communist dictatorship, they care about scientific etc education. There is a thread further down that YOU YOURSELF posted about Arabic numerals. That story is far from exceptional.

It would be far more useful if American high school were actually taught about where other countries were, instead of learning the capitals of North Dakota, Delaware and Nebraska. How many people in the state of Georgia, even know that there is a country called Georgia, for example?

The failure cannot be blamed on one party or the other. It is the failure of both combined. They have also let socially destructive political elements influence the curriculum for their own ends, instead of teaching them useful skills and knowledge.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:26PM

I hear the ringing of the bell curves.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:38PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hear the ringing of the bell curves.

I hear the failure of a school system which puts sports facilities before educational ones. (I like sport - but... priorities!)

A decent education system will provide people of medium to low intelligence with a basic working knowledge of various subjects, including some level of literacy.

A decent education will teach you how to express yourself, instead of hiding in "safe spaces".

A decent education will make you able to stand up for yourself instead of repeating someone else's meaningless mantras.

A decent education will teach you how to survive, not just to take off others or become dependent upon an established system.

A decent education will teach you that while you have free will, looking as if you slept in a dumpster last night will hinder your chances in life.

You hear the ringing of bell curves? I hear the ringing of a system which FAILS most black people on every level.

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:47PM

> I hear the
> ringing of a system which FAILS most black people
> on every level.

You really, really don't get it, do you. This sentence explains the sentiment underlying everything you previously wrote.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 01:25PM

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I hear the
> > ringing of a system which FAILS most black
> people
> > on every level.
>
> You really, really don't get it, do you. This
> sentence explains the sentiment underlying
> everything you previously wrote.

If you provide an environment where the kids can turn up looking like hobos, cannot be disciplined, are fed junk by the school and with inadequate physical facilities then you are failing them. If they cannot read properly or write, then you have failed them. I appreciate in some parts of the USA that people speak very differently from the standard language, but guess what? I grew up speaking in dialect with a strong accent - I still can speak in/understand it if I so wish - but I was taught how to write in standard English too. There are ways and means to get around that.

The only reason I mentioned black people is because Elder Berry mentioned the bell curve. (I thought you were still pretending they don't exist?) Like I said elsewhere, I believe this system is a failure for everyone including them. It rewards mediocrity and makes sports jocks into big heroes while those who study are not properly rewarded. If it teaches math properly, the pupils stand a better chance in business, and if they are taught how to look and act smart, they will go further in life.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 05:06PM

For the record I support the public school system with all of its flaws.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 07:33PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For the record I support the public school system
> with all of its flaws.

I support the public school system wothout them. Or at least with most of them eliminated.

As it stands, it is an embarrassment.

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Posted by: Jordan ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 07:35PM

Excuse my numerous typos please. :) I'm too used to having an edit function on forums.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 21, 2019 01:41PM

Just join and you can have that.

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Posted by: Roy G Biv ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 05:01PM

Are you sure its not the spheres?

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Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 05:18PM

Hah!

I'm not sure its either the Spheres or the Curves. I think it is the school bell signaling the end of recess. Somebody's got to get back to those pesky multiplication tables!

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Posted by: HappyandFree ( )
Date: May 21, 2019 01:38PM

"Many of the best students at American universities are now taken from other countries such as China, where despite being a Communist dictatorship, they care about scientific etc education."

Jordan, look a little deeper into exactly why there are so many Chinese nationals attending Universities in the US. It's not all about China's love for science. And it's not true that the Chinese nationals attending US Universities are necessarily the best students.

The following links are, of course, not true of every International Student at a University. But, it's clear that there is a big problem.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/how-sophisticated-test-scams-from-china-are-making-their-way-into-the-us/474474/

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chinese-visa-fraud-20190312-story.html

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ucla-cheating/

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-cheating-iowa/j

So just why are US Universities enrolling so many international students and looking the other way when cheating is apparent? Follow the money! International students pay far more in tuition than US students. The largest source of that sweet, sweet international tuition money is China.

http://graphics.wsj.com/international-students/

https://www.businessinsider.com/foreign-students-pay-up-to-three-times-as-much-for-tuition-at-us-public-colleges-2016-9

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/education/international-students-pay-top-dollar-at-us-colleges.html

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 11:51AM

BSA coopted by Mormonism is a primary example of how Mormonism historically does things badly. BSA has long been irrelevant in my opinion. It appeals to a group of parents and boys and now girls who want to keep a tradition alive that few people I know appreciate.

Time in a bottle like the Mormon message from a bygone time. Humans have a hard time changing organizationally more than individually. By the time they change the thing they changed to is on the decline.

Mormonism will still force kids into programs. Apparently, at 8 you can chose between right and wrong but not whether you want to be a part of the nonsense youth organization an intolerant religious organization your parents claim membership in has set up.

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Posted by: cl2 ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 12:05PM

although my brothers participated because we were raised mormon. I didn't belong to any scouts. None of them wanted to be an eagle scout. They went as it was required by the church. My dad didn't care, though he did make the pinewood derby cars and not well and he could have made them well. It was more of a "I have to get it done at the last minute."

I was raised by a farmer. We didn't live on the farm, but we FARMED ON THE FARM. We learned hard work the hard way. Hard work is a lot of the problem. Not being expected to do well. Also how they teach. The education system doesn't apply to a lot of people including my brothers and my son. I have extremely intelligent brothers. My older brother worked on an oil well for years and then went back to college in his late 30s only to have a brain bleed at age 42. He was studying Russian and German, both of which he already had used extensively in the army being stationed in Berlin doing translation for the government of Russian aircraft. This was before the wall came down.

My younger brother (the 3rd brother is disabled) went from having a GED to earning $200,000 a year. So it isn't all education. It is HARD WORK.

My daughter did very well in college and high school. She isn't working in her field of study, but she started a new job in January and got a promotion to a trainer in April.

My sisters and I have all been very successful in our jobs and 2 of us don't have a college education.

We didn't need scouts to teach us all the stuff you just posted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2019 12:07PM by cl2.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 01:51PM

Maybe I'm focusing too narrowly... I see a dramatic failure on the part of public school systems in teaching 'Consequences.' Having attended public schools from 1949 until 1962, I had the opportunity to learn about consequences. I got paddled twice and suspended once. These 'opportunities' helped me understand 'Consequences'. They didn't make me a better person, they just made me aware enough to take the time and trouble to avoid 'Consequences.'

Sure, there are kids in public schools whose parents teach them about 'Consequencnes', but way too many kids fdon't learn, and guess what? There are 'Consequences'!!

With too many people, 'Discipline' is a negative.


Regarding church scouting, it's one or both of the parents pushing their boys to get their eagle scout badges. Is there another social group that preaches to their boys, "no driver's license until you get your eagle scout!"

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Posted by: Eagle Scout Cabbie ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 08:05PM

Honest, I'm a fan of scouting; when I was in an LDS troop in the 1960's, the emphasis on the out-of-doors and conservation was strong, and I'm grateful for what I learned. These days, however, "environmentalist" is a dirty word for most Mormons.

That said, I fished this one out of the old bullchip catcher:

>>By the way, you don’t have to be a member of the LDS church to be a member of an LDS unit. Church-sponsored units keep their doors open to any individual interested in Scouting, Francis says.

>>“Many leaders and boys in our Scouting units are not LDS,” he says. “We welcome all to come and participate in the Scouting program, without any faith restriction.”

I presume they still have a "board-of-review" to evaluate a scouts "credentials."

Someone asked me point blank if I "believed in God" (I was essentially an atheist then although I'm not these days).

I said "No."

I spent the better part of an hour being grilled on that subject and essentially given the third degree on my merit badge awards.

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Posted by: nolongerangry ( )
Date: May 15, 2019 08:06PM

The church had girl scouts when I was a kid. Is that really why they ditched them?

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