There are some schools of thought that believe if you can be fooled you deserve to be. I’m wondering if the church leaders subscribe to that. I think in positions that are competed for, there are true believers because they’ve staked everything on it. But the top positions are filled by royalty and cronies, so they aren’t so invested in belief. They just have to play along. But that’s actually quintessentially Mormon. It was always about the show. Joseph gave them a good show and took their money. And some of their women, thank you very much.

Pressure from the Internet is really changing the church. It’s making it more culty. Any perceived threat drives Mormons deeper into fundamentalism, just where the leaders want them. Kaching. But now their enemy is light and knowledge which puts them in a bind. Solution? Drop all pretense and become a real cult.

Maybe you can gauge the level of belief in the leaders by the cultiness. If they know they’re taking everyone for a ride, it will be culty.

I was definitely gullible and fooled. The only excuses I can give myself is they have a lot of practice portraying themselves as something good, and I was lonely and looking for connection and fell into their traps. I am so glad I got out and also for RfM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2019 08:48PM by mel.

I'm glad you're out, too, Mel. You add a lot to this place.

:) :) :)

being aware of what they were teaching me like my father wasn't going to the CK because he drank coffee. I was taught that the rest of the world was evil and my world was pretty small. I had no clue how big the world really was and how small the lds church was. So I bought into it as I wanted my family to be safe.

My dad (as I've said before) told me that I was too smart to have married someone gay. He kept asking me if I knew beforehand. He actually understood when I told him that the leaders told me it was my job to save the husband. Yep, I was not using my brain, but I found my way out because of this experience. I had already starting going inactive when I met my future husband. Him being gay just really messed me up. I didn't know where to go for answers.

So, I wouldn't call myself gullible. Most of my family is out.

To go for it as an adult is different than being brainwashed as a child.

Having said that, most things in life are scams, so we all fall for something. I continue to discover more ways I've been duped.

You nailed that. Yes, it's a gullibility test, I know that it was for me and I was passing for a long time. I guess a lot of it was that it was hard to think that my educated parents were just plain gullible. When you're on the outside looking in you are like "where was my brain?"

But, as you said, we continue to be duped. I still just beat myself up sometimes for being so gullible. And I can see more and more that we believe what we want desperately to believe. It can be believing religions, believing what people in leadership positions tell us or even just believing stuff from and about people who are close to us that we want so badly to accept as truth when later we can see that the signs were all there that we were just being gullible.

So don't beat yourself up and go easy on those who are still a little deeper in gullibility than we wish they were. Truth is truth. I don't believe in stupid "alternative facts," or "alternative truth." But I do believe it's very hard sometimes to decipher it.

Scam artists usually despise their victims and often exhibit "duper's delight" when a scam is succeeding.

But in the bigger view of thing, scam artists make the world a worse place. They destroy trust. Deep and widespread trust is the probably the most important factor in making a society successful and prosperous. Every victim of a scam artist learns not to trust and passes that lesson on to others.

As for the Mormon leaders, I'm quite sure that they are not stupid. That means that they know that they are not being fully honest with the flock. They may rationalize things, but they have to know that they are stretching things beyond reason when they encourage the members of the flock to believe that the "Prophet" and "Apostles" have some kind of special communication pipeline with God. They know that their authority depends on the little people thinking that God communicates through the "Prophet" and "Apostles".

......They also know that they're not really getting clear, unmistakable messages from God.

Nelson knows that Monson and Hinckley didn't agree with him about the "Mormon" nickname. If he is right, they have to have been wrong. But he doesn't come right out and say it. Of course he has to know that it's possible (even likely) that they're all wrong and God doesn't give a fig about the "Mormon" nickname one way or another.

All of the modern "Prophets" and "Apostles" know that their predecessors have made M A J O R screw-ups. They know that Brigham Young worshiped the "wrong" god. But they never come clean. They knowingly sweep such things under the rug and hope that nobody notices. They have to know at some level that the temple "ordinances" are BOGUS. Otherwise, they wouldn't feel so free to make all of the changes that they have made.

I think at some level ALL of them know that the version of the "Gospel" that they believe in (if they believe at all) is quite different from the version that the ordinary members are encouraged to believe in. Some are better at rationalizing things and probably feel no guilt about preaching and implying things that they don't really believe in. Noble lies and all that rot.

My best guess is that Hinckley was not really a believer. He knew it was all crap, but it was his career, so why not make the best of it? He had a front row seat to so much. He was in the middle of the Hoffman scam. He was there when the proof of the true nature of the "Book of Abraham" papyrus was re-discovered. He publicly prided himself on being a PR guy (i.e. spin and propaganda guy). He knew. He didn't care.

Mr “I am sustained as such” had his ways.

FAITH.

Faith--the most important attribute any Mormon, any Christian can possess. How often is great faith lauded? How often is great faith listed as one of a person's greatest attributes? How often is a Mormon judged by their faith.

But . . .this Faith has a purpose that is not so divine.

Faith glorifies the act of believing the unbelievable, AKA, gullibility. Gullibility--which always benefits someone other than the "faithful" who exhibits faith in the face of fact to the contrary. And is rewarded with praise for being one of the faithful.



My mother is out to show her great faith which only gets stronger as each layer of the lie of Mormonism is revealed. As long as faith in Heavenly Father, faith in a prophet and apostles is the greatest quality a person can have and is accepted as a positive rather than a negative. then the bamboozle will continue.

But Mormonism poisons the well. Faith isn’t intrinsically bad. As Wally pointed out, scam artists destroy trust. To destroy trust in God is a heinous thing. To do it for money is understandable, I suppose. At least it’s not personal. God may bless the greedy, but what does he bless them with?

Maybe the law will catch up. Or at least require public disclosure of finances. With the church frittering away its goodwill, that could happen. The Italian Mafia empire didn’t last forever either.

I get what you are saying but I do see kinds of faith in the equation.

I'm not talking about "faith in yourself" type faith, or hope disguised as faith, or positive attitude credited with the title of faith. I am talking about faith used by religion as a control tactic. Faith that things will work out if you just pay your tithing type faith.

What is gullibility other than faith that what you are being sold will work when you have no facts or evidence that it will work? All you have is a gullibility that what you are being told it true, or in other words---faith in things not seen, not knowable.

I put my money on fact and evidence.


Also, I'm not big on trust. We are often put in positions that there is no option but to trust. Still, deciding to trust should be based on probability and bits of information that may point to a favorable conclusion if gambled upon.

I have found in my life that trust is not that useful because my trusting that something will happen does not ensure that it will happen. Doing some heavy lifting is what will ensure that it happens. Feeling that way is the upside of having been burned--a lot.

I like to love just because I like to love. I don't love because I trust someone to love me back or because I trust that they will act a certain way. I love anyway. Que sera, sera.

Love is part of my belief system. It’s something you give, not something you get. Maybe you believe in love too. The world is at war. If you put yourself out there, you’re gonna get hit. Maybe the hitting is the point.

Amen.

Maybe getting hit is the point? Not sure what you mean but I like it. Something good has come from all the times I've been "hit."

To love is to make life worthwhile. How else do you employ your emotions? And I do believe it is emotions that give life purpose and drive us to put ourselves out there and dare life to hit us.

IMO, Mormonism is also a vulnerability test. Utah has been referred to as "the scam capital of the U.S.A." Anyone who falls for Mormonism is gullible and I was probably one of the most gullible of anyone. When I was hired right after high school to work in the COB, I told my parents I was going to be working for "the celestial kingdom on earth". Boy, did I find out different! We've been approached several times by TBM's to get involved in AMWAY, and I'm so glad we had the good sense to say no. When my husband and our neighbor were home teachers, our next door neighbor's mother had passed away. The bishop told my husband that this was the best time to visit him because he "is at his lowest point, and will be the most vulnerable".

"Pressure [the Truth] is really changing the church. It’s making it more culty."

Almost NOTHING (but itself) will make it more cult like than it was designed and as it operates today.

Any perceived threat drives Mormons deeper into fundamentalism... [And over the speed limit!].

... their enemy is light and knowledge which puts them in a bind.

The enemy is the people, the members, the believers themselves. Especially the ones who seek higher and better knowledge and experience!

Maybe you can gauge the level of belief in the leaders by their [lazinesss]. If they know they’re taking everyone for a ride, it will be [cruelty] culty.

The pompous leaders - with no real listening or acting autonomy, concern, or remuneration, empathy, qualities, or power, serve no more good than to mock God and besmirch, and beg (time/ calling & "tithing") from and use the members/ one another.

The (mis)"leaders'" 'job' is to brown nose the members, and the world at Large, (but in different ways), so as to appear genuine and contrite, trustworthy and in charge, believable and wise [when they are none of these things].

Brown noser (plural brown nosers) (idiomatic) One who brownnoses (flatters or humors somebody in an obsequious manner for personal gain); one who sucks up; a bootlicker, ass-kisser, sycophant.

When someone or something lies and says it represents God, it might be damned!

I think a lot of church leaders (and GBH in particular) think the Mormon culture is a good way of life. I think their perception is that even if the church turns out to false, it doesn't matter because the mormon culture is SO GOOD.

I completely disagree with that rationale. The church is only good for those at the very top of the corporation.

This is sort of tangentially related but the gullibility test and finding the vulnerable made me think of this. It's not just religion.

I just got a robo call with slight new twist.

I unfortunately have to answer my phone since I am expecting some calls from people I don't know.

I seriously hate robo calls. I hate that it is legal for them to generate multiple phone numbers to used in local areas.

I heard that currently Japan is needing to add two digits to phone numbers because they are running out of numbers. Yet I have to block a couple numbers a day. How come these scammers get to have so many phone numbers?

Anyway, this version of robocall is peddling some great service for getting insurance (eye roll). They ask you to hit the asterisk if you are not interested. Who would give them the confirmation that you listened?

At the end of the message, there was something I've not heard before. They said to "be healthy and blessed" which is code for the more gullible among us. Why does an insurance gimmick call throw in the word "blessed" knowing it has a religious connotation? Because they know words that they think make them sound trustworthy to the credulous.

Honestly, WHO replies to this crap? I can't believe this is profitable enough that we are flooded with these calls. I can't believe people actually respond to these calls in this day and age but it happens enough to keep it all going.

The no call list is worthless. I'm glad phone companies are getting pressure to do something about these. IMO, the primary concern for the customer is a thing of the past. It's all about exploiting the customer for any possible profit. To me, corporate values toward customers have been on a steady decline. They are more interested in finding the gullibility tests.

Most people are not savvy enough to protect themselves against the vast toolkit religions have to keep them gullible. It's not just religion. As the Barnum saying goes, a fool is born every minute. There's always someone available to try and trick or take advantage of them. Humans are weird.

Be blessed, special ones!

Mormonism is more of a manipulation manifestation.

This is an extremely interesting thread and I am really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts here.

>Wally Prince wrote:

>But in the bigger view of thing, scam artists make the world a worse place. They destroy trust. Deep and widespread trust is the probably the most important factor in making a society successful and prosperous.

Yes,agreed. Many things have been degraded because of scam artists. I remember when you could just answer all phone calls, when you didn't have passwords on everything, didn't have to shred stuff or have your mail delivered to a post office box to avoid theft. Quality of life for everyone suffers from scams.

>As for the Mormon leaders...they know that they are not being fully honest...

I wonder if they admit it to themselves, though. The entitlement by male priesthood holders I met, I think they may believe they get messages from God, that everything good that happens to them is because of their own worth and goodness and faith...

>Done & Done

>What is gullibility other than faith that what you are being sold will work when you have no facts or evidence that it will work? All you have is a gullibility that what you are being told is true, or in other words---faith in things not seen, not knowable.

Indeed. One of the ways I feel most gullible were the members urging me to be 'part of the community' and the time I wasted socializing or trying to, with the members, who, I now feel. were only 'pretending' or doing their duty, whatever.

>I like to love just because I like to love. I don't love because I trust someone to love me back or because I trust that they will act a certain way. I love anyway. Que sera, sera.

Good for you, Done! I like your philosophy! This is a very good adaptation to the harsh world!!! :)

All of life is a gullibility test.

It's an integrity test.
If you can justify singing the praises of a man who had 34 "wives" (rape victim) 11 of whom were actually victims of child rape and another 11 victims were other mens wives, stay the fuck away from me, my wife and especially my kids.
If nothing else it was a massive abuse of power, the likes of which we see all thecway through the history of this abusive Doomsday sex CULT of Joseph's Myth.