I heard my dad say that all the prophesies in the BOM are coming true. I can't believe he is that stupid to think that of a fiction book. I lost a few brain cells just hearing it.

Basically everything "prophesied" in the BoM was 20/ 20 hindsight. A man in the early 1800's produces a book supposedly written way in the past and the book contains ancient prophecies about Jesus, his birth, ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, etc. as well as Columbus discovering America. And there are some very generic ones like false prophets in the latter days, etc. How convenient.

Here's a link to more info....from BYU.

https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Prophecy_in_the_Book_of_Mormon

So ask your dad which specific prophecies are coming true and see what he comes up with. There's nothing in the BoM that Joseph Smith and Co. didn't know already.

I never did get an answer to my questions as to why the BofM says nothing about the Word of Wisdom (other than getting your guards drunk is a good way to escape), or about the importance of attending the temple, not to mention tithing... And yeah, saying that the BofM 'sustains' tithing because Joe Smith quoted Malachi in 3rd Nephi, no, that doesn't cut it.

The BofM does nothing to describe, much less support, the current iteration of the mormon church. The only thing the BofM supports is my Lamanite origin. Yay!!

Make your prophecies so vague that any believer can readily see their fulfillment in the ensuing cornucopia of world events.

Or, make your prophecies of events that have already happened (like the foundation of the United States) or are alleged to have happened (like the Virgin Birth).

Here are some BoM prophecies that have come to pass, although these are probably not the ones that OP's father was thinking of (I compiled this list when Hinckley was still president):

Lack of Prophecy Today
Gordon B. Hinckley, in an interview reported in the San Francisco Chronicle, April 13, 1997, commented on revelation and the present-day church:

Q: And this belief in contemporary revelation and prophecy? As the prophet, tell us how that works. How do you receive divine revelation? What does it feel like?

A: Let me say first that we have a great body of revelation, the vast majority of which came from the prophet Joseph Smith. We don't need much revelation. We need to pay more attention to the revelation we've already received.

These words of Hinckley were prophesied over 2000 years ago (or 170 years ago, if you think Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon):

2 Nephi 28:27-30

Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, and we need no more! ... 29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough! 30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: ... for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

Micah 3:5-11

Thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that make my people err, ... 6 Therefore night [shall be] unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. 7 Then shall the seers be ashamed, and the diviners confounded: yea, they shall all cover their lips; for [there is] no answer of God. ... 11 ... yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, [Is] not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.

The Church's Efforts To Be Recognized as "Christian"
The LDS church has employed a public relations firm to promote its image, and is trying to appeal to a broader Christian audience. It is obvious that Hinckley's purpose is to make the church more popular, more acceptable. This was also prophesied:

1 Nephi 22:23

For the time speedily shall come that all churches which ... are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.

The New Conference Center in Salt Lake City
The LDS church has just completed it new conference hall in Salt Lake City, seating 21,000. In the first general conference of the church held there (April 2000) Hinckley ridiculed the "critics" of the church. This building, and Hinckley's sermon, were also prophesied:

1 Nephi 8:26-33

And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth. 27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit [of truth]. ... 31 And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building. ... 33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.

Buildings vs. Charity
Hinckley has boasted that:

many temples are being built; half a dozen per year are being dedicated. The Medford temple (a typical small temple) cost $3.5 million. Based on those figures, one can estimate $21 million per year is spent on temple construction.
the LDS church donated, over a ten-year period, $150 million to charitable purposes, i.e. $15 million per year.

This situation (more spent on temples than on charity) was prophesied:

Mormon 8:37

For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

2 Nephi 28:13

They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

The Church Is Prospering
Hinckley's general message to the church and to the world is: The church is prospering! This was also prophesied:

2 Nephi 28:21

And others will he [the devil] pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well--and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

Paying for Forgiveness
To get a temple recommend one must pay a full tithe. As part of the temple ceremony, one is "washed clean from the blood and sins of this generation." This was also prophesied:

Mormon 8:32

Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

The LDS Testimony Meeting
The modern LDS testimony meeting follows a pattern which has become traditional in the church. Those who wish to speak ("bear testimony") go to the pulpit, which is usually raised above the level of the audience, and which is called "the stand" in a Mormon chapel. They there say whatever the spirit moves them to say; however, it almost always includes the same rote statements: "I know the Gospel is true; I know that the Book of Mormon is true; I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God; I know that Gordon B. Hinckley [or whoever the current prophet may be] is a prophet of God; I am grateful that I have been blessed to be born in this day and age when the Gospel has been restored..." This phenomenon was accurately described (and condemned) in prophecy:

Alma 31:13

For they had a place built up in the center of their synagogue, a place for standing, which was high above the head; and the top thereof would only admit one person. 14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying: 15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, ...[16] we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; ... 17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, ... 18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.... 20 For behold, every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers. 21 Now the place was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand. 22 Now, from this stand they did offer up, every man, the selfsame prayer unto God, thanking their God that they were chosen of him, ...

The Seer Shall "Know All Things"
When Gordon B. Hinckley was de facto head of the church, he was unable to detect the forgeries of Mark Hofmann. He was also unable to translate the papyrii given to the church in 1966 from which Joseph Smith produced the Book of Abraham. If he were really a prophet, that should not have been the case:

Mosiah 8:17

But a seer can know of things which are past, and also of things which are to come, and by them shall all things be revealed, or, rather, shall secret things be made manifest, and hidden things shall come to light, and things which are not known shall be made known by them, and also things shall be made known by them which otherwise could not be known.

Moroni 10:5

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

If one prays to know whether the Book of Mormon is true, and gain that testimony as some claim to, shouldn't one also pray to know which of the Mormon churches is true, like Smith did?

Is it the scary FLDS with their sinister temple and teenagers getting married to fifty year olds?

Or the CoC (RLDS) which is so liberal in its theology, it doesn't know if the book is scripture or not?

Or the Bickertonites, because you know Alice Cooper was a member?

Or the Strangites who are tiny but founded by a Smith-like figure?

Or the gold plated SLC lot, who have walked straight out of a board meeting, have the most temples but are like a franchise operation?

Or Matthew Gill with his five members and bad BoM knock off?

Nothing in the BOM solvea this, except perhaps the RLDS don't emphasize it much.

“And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.”

That prophecy came true. City Creek Mall.

Okay, I'll bite. Want to share which prophecies he claims came true?

For argument's sake, I can think of two that have come true to some extent:

* The Book of Mormon has gone out to many "tongues and nations". Maybe not all of them, but quite a few. It is one of the most translated books out there. How many people have actually read it though? That is another matter.

* The Native Americans have bounced back to some degree. There are still huge problems with crime and mental ilness, and language death, but I don't see it all as doom and gloom. They are standing up for themselves and in certain respects their lot is improving compared to a century ago. Whether they will ever recover fully is another matter - globalization will probably destroy them culturally (and the rest of us).

So much of the other prophecies refer to indefinite times and are a bit too vague for my liking.

> The Native Americans have
> bounced back to some degree.

Are you referring to the money and prestige associated with owning casinos, or are they back to hunting buffalo in your neck of the woods?

What constitutes "bouncing back" in your view?

I understand there's been a resurgence in the popularity of backyard trampolines. Everyone's going down...and then bouncing right back!

Perhaps a slight decrease in the crime and mental illness?

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perhaps a slight decrease in the crime and mental
> illness?

That's a very patronizing remark, and one which unwittingly reveals your own latent prejudices.

Your patent prejudice regsrding being one upped shines brightly, because turning her query into the insult you supplied requires an awesome amount of negative motivation. Which I, of all people, understand.

'Rancors away, my boy, 'rancors away.

It came over as sarcasm, as did your comment below. (The majority of native American tribes were not buffalo hunters, as far as I know.)

I do not think everything is okay in their world. I do think some things have improved, and other have not. There are stats that suggest both. If there are genuine native Americans on here, maybe they can comment (and I don't mean green haired people who claim to be 1/32 Cherokee and practise Celtic feng shui.)

Be open about what you inwardly think. Don't hide it or aim to please teacher.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> That's a very patronizing remark, and one which
> unwittingly reveals your own latent prejudices.

Again, you don't grasp the fact that I was highlighting, through an irony that everyone but you understands, the "patronization" and "latent prejudices" in what you wrote.

Or is my quotation of what you say "putting words in your mouth" as you so often claim?

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > The Native Americans have
> > bounced back to some degree.
>
> Are you referring to the money and prestige
> associated with owning casinos, or are they back
> to hunting buffalo in your neck of the woods?
>
> What constitutes "bouncing back" in your view?

Here we go again! At no point have they returned to where they were five hundred years ago. That's clear. And they still have horrific problems - as stated by me. They do however have various rights in law which they didn't have a century ago. They also have more control over their education, and there are signs of language revival in some places as well as language death. They also have far more of a voice than they did, thanks to internet etc. Something like the Standing Rock protests would have never have had any success in the mid twentieth century. (Both political parties are to blame for Standing Rock.) The US government cannot treat them as it did in the 19th century without a substantial backlash.

I'm sure that there are those here who would like to portray them as helpless children - which is actually a very colonial attitude - I prefer to see people who are standing up for themselves. I do think they were badly treated, but I don't think they are solely on a path to extinction.

Some decades ago, people used to hide their native American background. Now it is a badge of honor in some parts. In fact too much so, since many phonies pretend to have such a background to further their career in New Age healing etc.

Also, if I'd made that remark about "hunting buffalo", the usual suspects would be falling over themselves to make public displays of their disapproval.

It's early yet, keep your hopes up!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's early yet, keep your hopes up!

Well, if the "rewilding" lobby get their way, there won't just be wolves on Wall Street but roaming around Central Park at night, picking off homeless people... But by then the vegan lobby shall be so strong that neither hunting nor livestock rearing will be legal.

Here we go again, Jordan having a fit of the vapors about topics no one raised.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here we go again, Jordan having a fit of the
> vapors about topics no one raised.

You're projecting...

Excellent comeback.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot's Wife Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Here we go again, Jordan having a fit of the
> > vapors about topics no one raised.
>
> You're projecting...

Do you have Autism Jordan? Or are you just a hardcore SJW?

nolongerangry Wrote:
------------------------
> Do you have Autism Jordan?

No, I've never been diagnosed with autism. I did try self-screening some years ago, but did not score highly enough; I lack certain tendencies. I went through a period of depression for a couple of years when several people dear to me died in quick succession, but that's the worst place I've found myself in.

However, I do admire some people with high functioning autism for their intelligence, and ability to cut through crap, and not to follow blindly. Other individuals I don't admire at all, but that's just personal choice. Some of them are the opposite of how I aim to be. I am close to several people who happen to be high functioning, and while I find them hard going, I trust them more than a lot of others.

>Or are you just a
> hardcore SJW?

I don't fight for so called "social justice". That is a form of cryptocommunism which attempts to make western society unworkable by exploiting its supposed internal contradictions and fabricating new ones if the pre-existing ones are insufficient for that purpose. Most of the people involved in SJWery don't even know what they are working towards, and haven't thought through the long term consequences properly.

"Social justice" is like a pie whose crusr looks and tastes good on the outside, but whose filling consists of uncooked pus and vomit. Outwardly, it looks as if it helps people and makes society fairer. Inwardly, it works towards state authoritarianism, censorship, manipulation of children's education, and collapsing business through making them unprofitable and unworkable.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't fight for so called "social justice". That
> is a form of cryptocommunism which attempts to
> make western society unworkable by exploiting its
> supposed internal contradictions and fabricating
> new ones if the pre-existing ones are insufficient
> for that purpose. Most of the people involved in
> SJWery don't even know what they are working
> towards, and haven't thought through the long term
> consequences properly.

Cryptocommunism. . . Do you have a definition or source for that memorable neologism?

Why is a rant against communism, a dead philosophy, relevant to a discussion of the BoM?


-------------
> "Social justice" is like a pie whose crusr looks
> and tastes good on the outside, but whose filling
> consists of uncooked pus and vomit.

Is that intended as political analysis?


----------
> Outwardly, it
> looks as if it helps people and makes society
> fairer. Inwardly, it works towards state
> authoritarianism, censorship, manipulation of
> children's education, and collapsing business
> through making them unprofitable and unworkable.

You previously argued that the ADA and its mandatory accommodations for the disabled, which were enacted by the legislature and executive in a democratic republic, are unduly burdensome. Why is it that majority sentiment as expressed through constitutional channels is "authoritarian" and your minority views are morally preferable?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2019 08:32PM by Lot's Wife.

Brain cells really aren't needed in the Church because we have the beloved sacred Correlation program that teaches us what to do in all situations. Do we think? No need for that. Do we obey? Yep, that's what we do. We obey.

Once again we see the inspiration of the prophets. Many in the church are on antidepressants, which function as chemical straight jackets. Removing any need to think helps them. The tender mercies of the Lord never cease to amaze me.

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here--this is the War Room!


Back to the OP: I would feign interest and ask "Which ones? It would be really cool to check it out in the BoM--that would be amazing!"

You know, like that. With mormon words... :-)

The most convincing one is about the BoM filling the Earth (I think the BoM expresses it in slightly different wording). It is something of a self-fulfilment, a bit like Mohammed's prophecy in the Koran that Islam would conquer Constantinople (Istanbul), which made the Muslim warriors obsessed with fulfilling that goal... which they did eventually. In the same way, missionaries have carried the book across the world and continue to translate it into many languages, as a direct result of that prophecy.

So the vast majority of the world's people have not read it, but they have had it brought to their country, with the exceptions of parts of the Middle East and dictatorships. I know for a fact that LDS are present even in some of those places. I have found copies of the BoM in mountain huts, book exchanges and remote hotels. Even in a Buddhist community.

I'm most impressed by how Joseph Smith himself is foretold in 2 Nephi 3. It gave me chills when I read it.

OK, I was reading the BOM for my wife when I first came across the passage, and I couldn't help but laugh. My wife was not as amused as I was.

I haven't even read the thing and I know from word of mouth that it is fiction. Why does it seem like you guys are supporting it?

nolongerangry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't even read the thing and I know from word
> of mouth that it is fiction. Why does it seem
> like you guys are supporting it?

It does seem strange that on an exmo board, you seem to have never read it. Almost all adult LDS have read considerable portions of it. And I would have thought someone with a passing interest in Mo'ism would have at least looked at the thing.

I do find the BoM still interesting, but even its supporters would admit much of the content is not original. A huge chunk of it consists of chapters lifted straight from Isaiah... So even if you think it is the real deal, it does that by its own admission. I went to a copy to look up something for this thread and landed straight in such a section.

The Seer Shall "Know All Things"

When Gordon B. Hinckley was de facto head of the church, he was unable to detect the forgeries of Mark Hofmann.

Bloody Hell! Standing alongside the Hinkster in a published photo is the hoaxster who soon will murder a man and lady whom he reckoned were threats to his ongoing plots.

He once bragged that he was out to out-fool Joseph Smith.

He almost came before a similar firing squad as was the lot of that fake prophet.

May he rot in remorse.