Here's a story you won't find in church publications.

https://www.salon.com/2019/06/01/i-lost-my-virginity-at-37-what-a-trip-to-the-bunny-ranch-really-taught-me/

"So here’s my advice: Sex is not a big deal. Stop waiting. Have it. Experience it. Enjoy it. It’s not something you need to stay away from. It’s normal. Nowadays I look back and I understand that staying away from sex all those years was like banning myself from the grocery store. It’s not the end of the world to have sex with someone you have no connection with. Also, we need to stop the stigma against sex workers. I had a great time at the ranch. It did wonders for me mentally. I used to think I'd be ashamed if I lost it to a prostitute. Not at all. I was given a great experience and was handled with real care."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2019 09:09PM by Tevai.

That's good that he found out about the "big nasty." It sounds like it was a healthy thing for him to do emotionally.

Sex is the big nasty ? Are you actually an adult ?

Be nice, Dave. Would you prefer a different euphemism?

Bumping uglies?
Laying pipe?
Making the beast with two backs?
Boinking?
The old in-out?
Gland to gland combat?
Playing hide the salami?
Jumping his/her bones?
Stuffin' the muffin?

Adults joke about sex all the time and there are more euphemisms for it than computer geeks have words for "broken".

In my opinion, truly childish euphemisms for sex, especially when used by adults, would be things like:

Playing house
Playing mommy and daddy
Making babies

Those really say something about stunted development.


CZ (who administers to an entire flock of black sheep)

Thankyou CZ! very well put.
I appreciate all your effort with the board.

They make everything about sex. One of the BIG things about my situation dealing with the leaders over my gay boyfriend/eventual husband was how obsessed they are by sex, and how they were dismissive about me using myself to see if we could get my husband married by getting him turned on, which I just couldn't participate in. I couldn't understand the double standard. It was crazy making. They about made me lose my mind.

Now sometimes I've talked about this, but HAVING been married to someone gay, who didn't desire me, and then being with my nonmormon boyfriend who I had not married at age 20--I then knew why gays need to be with other gays. AND I had sex while married to another man and I didn't feel one bit of guilt and I still don't. This has been much more right for me than my temple marriage to a gay man having saved myself.

They make gay relationships about the sex--ALL ABOUT THE SEX. Hey people, it isn't just about the sex. It is the whole relationship, just like we straight people have.

What a mind fuck!

C12, even after all these years of knowing what "the church" did to you and your husband and boyfriend - it still makes me cringe.
None of you deserved that.

It causes so much pain. Somehow we got to this point, but there are times I still wonder what the real cost has been to all of us. My kids especially.

They won’t get my virginity without a fight. I can handle this lot easily. Please let me face the peril.

There you go again, making your foolish assumptions.

There are always feminists complaining about how exploitative the local sex industry is my local newspaper, so how is that "an assumption"?

> There are always feminists complaining about how
> exploitative the local sex industry is my local
> newspaper, so how is that "an assumption"?

The assumption is that there is one type of "feminist" and one set of views. That is wrong. A lot of feminists find prostitution totally acceptable as long as coercion is not involved--and there are indeed places where regulation, healthcare, and social attitudes render it a non-coercive choice. Women are free to make their own choices about their own bodies, absent force, as are men.

Your assumption captures the attitude of a significant, albeit minority, set of feminists. The overall feminist community cannot be described in those terms.

Overegging the pudding yet again. There is no assumption there is one kind of feminist, but you did assume when I said "round here" referred to this forum. My bad for not phrasing it less ambiguously.

It is not a "minority" of feminists in my part of the world. It is most feminists. Even those who are "sex positive" (stupid phrase) and are easier on pornography despise the idea of women hanging around at junctions and risking their lives. A woman turned up here from abroad a few years ago, trying to unionize sex workers and she was chased away by feminist protestors who complained she was enabling male oppression.

The city I live in has a very vociferous anti-prostitution lobby, run mostly by women. They have succeeded in changing our laws from prostitutes being banned from initiating business contact with men* to one where men are penalized for paying for sex, or even driving slowly in certain parts of the city.

They are very vocal in our local papers and in protests. One picture of them had a middle aged woman with a sign saying "Do you know where your husband is tonight?" - typical womb-trembler sensationalism. They have - rightly though - pointed out the high rates of people trafficking connectes with prostitution.

The irony is that they have succeeded in driving the sex trade further underground which makes it more dangerous for the working women.

I have more sympathy for a friend of mine I used to attend church with. She died some years ago unfortunately, but she worked for a charity which helped these women get off drink and drugs, give them psychological support, get them into other paid work and so on. That's far more helpful to them than the other kind of campaigning. We have high levels of unemployment and low paid work here, coupled with drug dependency, which are all factors which drive women into prostitution in the first place. A real feminist would identify how these women could find work which would support them properly, not just try and shut down the industry (which never works).

* Most of the clients, but not all are male. Nor are all the prostitutes female of course.

"Women are free to make their own choices about their own bodies"

A very naïve view of prostitution. I have occasionally been propositioned by working girls on the street and a lot of them are in a very bad state physically. Collapsed veins, arms like pin cushions, and some look anorexic. It doesn't look like those women are in control of their own destinies at all. Barring a few nymphomaniacs, a lot of them probablu don't enjoy it anymore than a desk job.

Do you not feel foolish misrepresenting my views in such a transparent manner?

You say my view that ""Women are free to make their own choices about their own bodies" is "very naive." That would be naive if it were what I said. But it is not.

Here, I'll walk you through the logic. I wrote "A lot of feminists find prostitution totally acceptable as long as coercion is not involved--and there are indeed places where regulation, healthcare, and social attitudes render it a non-coercive choice. Women are free to make their own choices about their own bodies, absent force, as are men."

Now pay attention since this is the tricky part. In two sentences I said twice that there must be no "coercion" and additionally that there must not be "force." You choose to ignore those statements and pretend I did not express them. Do you think others cannot see your dishonesty there?

The naivete lies in your failure to comprehend that everyone hear can read what I actually said. Grow up, Jordan, and stop misrepresenting others' words--at least so blatantly that any intelligent person would feel embarrassed.

You used that pro-abortion line about "their bodies". However, it is blatantly clear that many prostitutes are not. Even leaving to one side the issues of pimping and people trafficking from Eastern Europe etc, a lot of them (or at least the street walking kind) are addicts. Their choice was to start on heroin, crystal meth or whatever, but if you become hooked on them, then that takes away a lot of your free agency.

The Bunny Ranch (which I've seen feathred on a couple of documentaries) represents the happier face of prostitution, but even there you can find issues. One of the docs I've seen showed a woman who was clearly alcoholic. They're also out in the middle of nowhere and live on site. So even there they have issues.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You used that pro-abortion line about "their
> bodies".

So I am wrong to assert that "women's bodies" belong to those women? My saying that is a political statement about abortion?
You are as misogynistic as you think you are intelligent.


-------------------
> However, it is blatantly clear that many
> prostitutes are not.

Do you miss the point intentionally or is it unwitting? I have said several times that the state should eliminate the "coercion" and abuse inherent in illegal prostitution so women can make their own choices.

Yet you keep asserting that I am unaware of the coercion involved in illegal prostitution.


---------------
> Even leaving to one side the
> issues of pimping and people trafficking from
> Eastern Europe etc, a lot of them (or at least the
> street walking kind) are addicts. Their choice was
> to start on heroin, crystal meth or whatever, but
> if you become hooked on them, then that takes away
> a lot of your free agency.

So what? So keep prostitution illegal so it remains under the control of the criminals you describe? That doesn't make much sense, does it?


--------------
> The Bunny Ranch (which I've seen feathred on a
> couple of documentaries) represents the happier
> face of prostitution, but even there you can find
> issues. One of the docs I've seen showed a woman
> who was clearly alcoholic. They're also out in the
> middle of nowhere and live on site. So even there
> they have issues.

What exactly is your point? Women should not have control over their own bodies? Prostitution should stay illegal?

TAhere you go again, Jordan, admitting that you were responsible for the miscommunication because you spoke too "ambiguously." "My bad," you acknowledge. But then you proceed to claim that I "overegged the pudding."

What exactly does that mean, Jordan? The misunderstanding is your fault but it is my fault?

Not a good look for you.

It wasn't a miscommunication. You just read it the wrong way. When I said "round here", I meant "here" where I live.

Nope. I don't necessarily approve of prostitution, but it's a fact of life. It's going to happen. And if it's going to happen, Nevada does it right.

Yes, that's right.

Oh now I remember why I stopped coming here.

Hi Dogzilla, We miss you.


ETA: And you are correct. Misogyny and racism have a home here that they don't on any of the other ex-Mormon sites and it can get rough here reacting to that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2019 02:22PM by Lot's Wife.

TSCC (All churches do it BTW) capitalizes on making people feel guilty about sex. It is the one area that if they can control your sex life they can control everything about you!

Prostitute is only a nasty word and a verb of submission where that is what is required to do the job.

It should be legal and accepted as something some humans would like to do for a living without coercion, abuse, shame and with healthy habits and regulations.

Yes. When olderelder mentioned his trip to the Bunny Ranch, I wasn't discomfited at all. Perhaps I presume too much but my impression is that the women there make their own decisions and are treated decently. If that is the case, I don't see anything offensive about the situation.

Ultimately women should be the bosses of their own bodies. Absent coercion and abuse, their decisions are none of my business.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ultimately women should be the bosses of their own
> bodies.
> Absent coercion and abuse,

If you've seen the physical state of some of these women, especially the ones on the street, they aren't in charge of their bodies - their addictions are.

Also the phrase "sell your body" is aptly used. I doubt they like every single person they have sex with. Some of them maybe make their skins crawl.

Then they get certain feminists ("not all feminists") telling them that they are reinforcing the partriarchy.

> their
> decisions are none of my business.

How many people go into this as a life career? A fraction of a fraction It's shorter than a sports career - start at 18, more likely twenty, then maybe ten years on the game.

However, unlike tennis or even ballet, I doubt many girls dream in elementary school of being a prostitute when they grow up.

A lot of women must get into that business because it's a way to make better money than some of the other jobs they can get, or they just can't get jobs elsewhere.

This isn't an argument against prostitution but the modern society's expressions of it.

"You can buy anything in this world with money." Remember that? And telling people that just because some clients creep them out or disgust them doesn't make it bad.

What if the woman who this guy coupled with really enjoys sex with strangers? Would you say she is an abomination? You intimate that alcoholism is a result for some in this profession. I've known many alcoholics in my career. Does this mean I'm a prostitute in some sense?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2019 01:02PM by Elder Berry.

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What if the woman who this guy coupled with really
> enjoys sex with strangers?

Prostitutes are a type of actor - they pretend to enjoy the experience regardless of whether they do, to please their customer and perhaps create regular work. Maybe she does, maybe she doesn't. I'm sure it depends on who she's with, how she's feeling, how tired and so on.

> Would you say she is an
> abomination?

Why would I say that?

> You intimate that alcoholism is a
> result for some in this profession.

At least one documentary on this particular brothel revealed one of the former employees had alcohol addiction and she had to be removed for a while. It was made years ago, but that's just a snapshot of it.

I'm well aware that the women there have various reasons for doing this work. Money is obvious the prime motivation.

I've known
> many alcoholics in my career. Does this mean I'm a
> prostitute in some sense?

It isn't, don't be stupid, but alcoholism will often take people to places they don't intend.

Jordan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It isn't, don't be stupid, but alcoholism will
> often take people to places they don't intend.

Personal attack?

You sound like you know a lot of women prostitutes? Do you?

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> What if the woman who this guy coupled with really enjoys sex with strangers?

Fine

> Would you say she is an
> abomination? You intimate that alcoholism is a result for some in this profession. I've known
many alcoholics in my career. Does this mean I'm a prostitute in some sense?

Elder Berry, let's don't be too broad here. No pun intended-

Let's don't ask ridiculous questions. It only leads to ridiculous answers or replys.

I'm not a referee here
Though I may have stripes

I have stars, and bars, too
I'm the man in the moon

I don't take sides
Or even reservations

I just try to make peace
With my piece of the pie

That's my 2 cents worth
And I'll spend the rest
[Of the night on RFM]

ShiFt!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2019 02:33AM by moremany.

Idiocy.

I have stated several times that a large proportion of women in prostitution do not have control over their lives. They are "coerced."

Why do you keep acting as if I have not said that? Is there something preventing you from grasping the meaning of my words?

My point is that women should be freed from constraint and allowed to make their own decisions about their own bodies--regardless of what you or I would like them to do. Is there some reason you are uncomfortable with that proposition?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2019 01:07PM by Lot's Wife.

Your view of this matter, like many others is through rose tinted spectacles.

They aren't "making decisions about their bodies" anymore if they are drug addicts, and even if they aren't they are selling them to someone else. Even in the Bunny Ranch, someone else decides who can use their body in that place, who stays and who goes, and how much of a cut they can take off their earnings.

Here, as in so many other of your posts, you are attacking a straw man. What is unique, and bizarre, is that you are impervious to the several times when I demonstrated that your straw man lacks clothes.

Ultimately it is not the straw man who should be embarrassed his nudity. It is his creator. There is nothing so blind as the man who refuses to see.

amen brother Ben
somebody stole my mammy's hen

Worlds oldest profession as my dad said... "sheep Herder"

As I have worked my way out of religious belief, the obsession that religious organizations have with sex seems more weird and creepy.

People have sex behind closed doors. Keep it a secret. Don't have a telethon. Tell-a-bishop behind an unclothed door.