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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 07:50AM

Tevai, can you give me some info from the Jewish side on this?

So when Lehi left and came to America, he took seeds from Jerusalem with him and planted them in America.

Mormons try to say that the American wild "little barley" satisfies the anachronism of barley in the Book of Mormon, but what about the Omer? What about the seven species of agricultural products?

Would an ancient Hebrew from the time of Solomon's temple bring seeds from Jerusalem but leave the seed of barley behind and use a different wild barley in another land?

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Posted by: Warren Jeffs ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 08:54AM

It would have amounted to throwing past Mormon prophets under a bus who may have advocated the pre 1978 priesthood ban.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 11:03AM

Also may I add, the Nephite monetary system was based on "a measure of barley."

If barley was the basis for an entire economic system for millions of people, why don't we find it on a wide scale basis.

Another point on barley. Is it a feasible crop in the tropics?

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Posted by: valkyriequeen ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 11:45AM

My husband said the Incas never knew anything about barley or the raising thereof, and as for horses, they had never seen any until Pizarro and his men came with them from Europe.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 03:18PM

mikemitchell:

I have never Counted the Omer (a 49-day period between the second night of Passover and the Jewish holiday of Shavuot), and the only Jewish thing I know about barley is that it is kosher.

I will be back when I know more about Jewish-related barley than simply: "I can eat it!" :D

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 05:21PM

Thanks.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 08:08PM

I think you can like MJ said "Beat it" as well? Does it thresh?

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Posted by: Oregon ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 10:47PM

I pulled this from the archives:

And it came to pass that we did begin to till the earth and we began to plant seeds, yea, we did put all our seeds into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem and... they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed with abundance". 1 Nephi 18.24, pg 40.
Being a farmer by profession and making my living in Judea, I can say with certainty that this verse is pure fiction. Firstly, the seed would not have been viable after eight years - especially after having endured the salt air of a long sea voyage. Secondly, consider the problems of climatic suitability. Seed that is suited to the wet, cold winters and hot dry summers of mountainous Judea would be unsuitable in the steaming tropical rain forests of Central America. Take barley for example. Barley was the staple grain of the common Judean. It requires a cool wet season for germination tapering off to a hot dry season before harvest. Any rain before harvest would destroy the crop. Should we assume that a miracle occurred so that the weather dried out for a month before harvest insuring abundant yields? Should we assume that an ecological disaster did not occur to the surrounding rain forests? Thirdly, the soils in both places are extremely different. Here in Judea, there is almost no organic matter, yet in Central America the soil is all organic matter. Here in Judea, soils range from neutral to alkaline while in Central America the soils are extremely acid. I am skeptical that such native Judean seed would have even grown

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Posted by: Oregon ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 10:50PM

Forgot the citation:
An Open Letter to a Mormon friend
A CRITICAL INSPECTION OF THE BOOK OF MORMON
By Dale Baranowski

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: July 29, 2019 12:01AM

Thanks

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: July 30, 2019 12:33AM

Thank You for the background on the viability of barley.

Again science triumphs over deceit.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: July 28, 2019 11:15PM

Joe might have had a fixation on mild barley drinks.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: July 29, 2019 12:54AM

mikemitchell Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tevai, can you give me some info from the Jewish
> side on this?
>
> So when Lehi left and came to America, he took
> seeds from Jerusalem with him and planted them in
> America.

I don't know if Lehi was supposed to be a Jew or not, but if a Jew did leave the land [of present day Israel] in the time of King Zedekiah (Albright says: circa 598 BCE), he definitely would have taken with him barley to plant. It was an essential in the Hebrew diet of that time--along with: wheat, grapes/wine, figs, pomegranates, olives/olive oil, and dates and/or honey.


> Mormons try to say that the American wild "little
> barley" satisfies the anachronism of barley in the
> Book of Mormon

A different American species would be unlikely to satisfy the requirements of religious observance (such as Counting the Omer). It might well be used as an additional food source, but it wouldn't substitute for what Jews of that period would consider the "real thing." What the Book of Mormon says doesn't seem to be likely (absent something like losing all of the original seeds, agricultural catastrophe, etc.).


> ....but what about the Omer?

Was Lehi a Jew? Did he "count the Omer"? I have no idea.


> What about the seven species of agricultural products?

From a Hebrew/Israelite standpoint in that time, the seven species (barley, wheat, grapes/wine, figs, pomegranates, olives/olive oil, dates/honey) WERE the essentials of "food." Meat was more or less "optional" to the fundamentals above.


> Would an ancient Hebrew from the time of Solomon's
> temple bring seeds from Jerusalem but leave the
> seed of barley behind and use a different wild
> barley in another land?

Absolutely not. For one very big consideration: How would a person from that time know that God approved of the new American species--let alone the hypothetical prospect of allowing a complete substitution of the new species in place of "real" ("God approved," the traditional, grown in Israel, kind) barley?


I learned a great deal from this question, mike (including, at last, me beginning to understand the process of Counting the Omer!). I looked for videos on YouTube and found a couple of Jewish-produced videos which helped me to understand, but the majority of the YouTube videos available on this subject are produced by Christian sources, for their own Christian needs and purposes, so if the Jewish perspective is important, it is necessary to pick through the many videos seemingly available.

Thank you for today's adventure!

This was fun.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2019 12:59AM by Tevai.

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Posted by: mikemitchell ( )
Date: July 29, 2019 07:54AM

Thank you Tevai.

The story in the Book of Mormon has Lehi leaving Jerusalem with his sons and others, bringing seeds, coming to America and planting those seeds and getting an abundance of harvest.

Then after Lehi dies, his son Nephi takes his followers and flees into the American wilderness to escape his own brothers, taking seeds. He plants them and again has abundance of crops.

2 Nephi 5:16 even claims that Nephi built a temple like Solomon's. This would have been within a range of less than 30 years of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, the time frame in the Book of Mormon 588–559 B.C.

Mormonism claims that Lehi was from the tribe of Manasseh but had lived at Jerusalem, even calling it the land of his inheritance. He didn't know he was from Manasseh until his son Nephi killed the drunk Laban and stole his brass plates that contained their family's genealogy.

I just can't see how Lehi would have left barley seed behind. The Book of Mormon doesn't say what seeds they brought or what they harvested but mentions barley later on and Mormon apologists try to say that the wild American species Hordeum pusillum satisfies the anachronism. Seems those apologists don't have a grasp on how important Middle Eastern barley Hordeum vulgare was to ancient Hebrews, both as a kosher food staple and as an approved offering in the temple.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/29/2019 08:11AM by mikemitchell.

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Posted by: presleynfactsrock ( )
Date: July 30, 2019 03:37AM

I misread the title of this thread as....

Question about Book of Mormon blarney.

And, I rather like the sound of this sentence with this word added.

(Meaning no disrespect to the wonderful Irish people. I hope they don't mind if I borrow it because I think blarney is one of those words which say much as well as sound great)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/30/2019 03:44AM by presleynfactsrock.

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