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Posted by: Screen Name ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 01:27PM

Why are so many old white men killing themselves in Montana?

What is your best guess?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBRBmXlkrg

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Posted by: Pooped ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 01:49PM

Not old. Middle aged men, some with young children.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 02:03PM

Wow.

I think this (a BBC documentary about a growing, and peculiarly American, problem) is one of the most valuable videos I have ever seen.

Thank you, Screen Name.

This one is very much appreciated.

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Posted by: Lethbridge Reprobate ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 04:02PM

I know the farming community in Montana and Alberta are under a great deal of economic and weather related stress this year. Sadly this will no doubt lead to thoughts of suicide in that population. I've been there. Contemplated it. Even got to the point of working out the scenario...but...I stepped back and realized I could not leave my family having to deal with the aftermath.

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Posted by: jay ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 04:47PM

"but...I stepped back and realized I could not leave my family having to deal with the aftermath."

Is it okay to say that a respect and admire that? I do.

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Posted by: scmd1 ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 05:06PM

I'm glad you made the choice you did, Ron. This place wouldn't be the same without you, and I would guess that it's even more true of the region you physically inhabit.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 05:20PM

scmd1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm glad you made the choice you did, Ron. This
> place wouldn't be the same without you, and I
> would guess that it's even more true of the region
> you physically inhabit.

These are my feelings and thoughts too, Ron.

I'm glad you made the decision you did.

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Posted by: mootman ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 05:37PM

Thanks for posting this. This is a huge problem affecting my family. Growing up in utah the first time this really hit me was in 9th grade. I lost a friend I had known since kindergarten. To me, it's just like the first man said, "I'm useless to everyone".
Meanwhile I know police officers who have to clean up the mess. How it affects them.
And on down the line. It's tough to take
What most people don't get is that these men are so brainwashed from birth to take pride in their work and to take care of their family. All that has been taken away from them and they are bereft

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: October 13, 2019 06:48PM

Montana is a miserable place 9 months of the year. There are gorgeous summers with many tourists, but it's a big wide open big sky up there, lots of mountains, and really cold and isolated in the winter. Driving around to get from here to there isn't fun when ice around. And every town is like 40 miles from the next one. It's a boring place.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: October 14, 2019 05:44AM

Oh, good lord. Where to start? At least your stereotyping isn't restricted to "races", it extends to states. Points for versatility.

A good 80% of Montana is high plains, not mountains. It is the Plains that gave it the nickname Big Sky Country. It's not particularly cold. Minnesota, the Dakotas, Wisconsin, those are cold.

It is dry and isolated, which is why it is thinly populated. Farming and ranching there are economically precarious. There is a relatively high native population, and the state is at a relatively high altitude. All of that seems to contribute to a high suicide rate.

Clay Jenkinson, a frequent talking head in Ken Burns documentaries on American history, is firmly of the opinion that if he had to pick one state that was the essence of America, it would have to be Montana. I'm inclined to agree. It would take far longer to justify that claim than I am willing to take, but trust me, it's not boring if you know where and how to look.

I have, much to my surprise, spent most of my adult life in the empty quarter of The US - Utah, Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas. Utah is unique, but the rest of it is a very large Lake Wobegone with cowboy boots.

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Posted by: montanadude ( )
Date: October 20, 2019 04:47PM

MacaRomney wrote:
"Montana is a miserable place 9 months of the year. There are gorgeous summers with many tourists, but it's a big wide open big sky up there, lots of mountains, and really cold and isolated in the winter. Driving around to get from here to there isn't fun when ice around. And every town is like 40 miles from the next one. It's a boring place."

Miserable is a poor choice of words unless you live or have lived in Montana. Yes, the winters can be challenging but it's no different than the Midwest or Utah and though it may be cold at times the sun is often showing. In fact, I've fly fished at least one day a month for the past 12 years.

As for boring, another poor choice of words. I live in Bozeman. It has a thriving economy, great restaurants and arts scene. My gut says, you've actually never spent much time in Montana.

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Posted by: montanadude ( )
Date: October 20, 2019 04:56PM

Montana has unique challenges when it comes to emotional health.

Many multi-generation families in Montana have learned to be self reliant. Admitting that you may be suffering from depression or struggling with addiction is often not talked about because of the social stigmas. Also, Montana is no different than states that have many rural towns with high rates of drug abuse.

If you are ever near East Glacier, drive through Browning, Montana which is the reservation for the Blackeet Tribe. It has the feel of a third world country and no hope. Now wonder they experience a high rate of suicide.

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Posted by: Dr. No ( )
Date: October 14, 2019 11:33AM

Google:

"zeroed out"

-- and get past the banal mathematical definitions dutifully listed

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Posted by: Finance Clerk ( )
Date: October 14, 2019 12:41PM

A YouTube following the one linked above talks of a "suicide belt"...that essentially is states in the inter-mountain west. IOW the Suicide Belt and the Mormon Corridor cover almost identical areas.

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: October 14, 2019 11:08PM

As a lifelong Montanan, I have lost a lot of friends and acquaintances.

We have 7 Indian reservations in the state, and they have a terrible suicide rate. Not all of the deaths are broke white farmers.

Like other places in the nation, we continue to have an opiate problem, a meth problem, and an alcohol problem- with a recovery industry that should be known as the American Holocaust from the terrible success rate- while continuing to ignore better methods that the Europeans use.

Until better solutions are employed combating substance abuse I do not see the situation improving.

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Posted by: AnonInCali ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 01:03AM

I agree with you that the success rate of the American recovery industry is sorely lacking. I recently started reading "US of AA" which I am finding fascinating. What have you discovered about the more successful methods of Europe and eksewhere?

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Posted by: Grand Central ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 07:23AM

AnonInCali Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you that the success rate of the
> American recovery industry is sorely lacking. I
> recently started reading "US of AA" which I am
> finding fascinating. What have you discovered
> about the more successful methods of Europe and
> eksewhere?

Please do not believe everything you read about the AA. I was reading an anti-AA article recently and realized it was based on false premises.

* There are *NO* reliable AA statistics anywhere. It is an anonymous organization. Even the org's own stats are unreliable.

* AA *never* discourages its attendees from seeking other forms of help, such as medical intervention etc as you claim. In many cases it provides free advice for where you can get this.

* AA is extremely cheap to run. Much more so than the alternatives (which it does not seek to replace). It does provide a peer support network of a nature most medical personnel will not be able to replicate.

* AA does not have to be religious. I have known atheist AA members, who consider G.O.D. to be "group of drunks" - their higher power is their peer support.

Even if AA has a success rate of under 10%, that would be a good thing. But I don't believe that to be the case. Many people do stay off drink etc due to these groups. But they do not, repeat do not, stop people going on medication etc. Sadly those don't have a complete success rate either. AA helps provide love, support and advice from experience that is lacking in medical care and helps round it out.

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: October 19, 2019 11:27AM

Grand Central Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AnonInCali Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I agree with you that the success rate of the
> > American recovery industry is sorely lacking. I
> > recently started reading "US of AA" which I am
> > finding fascinating. What have you discovered
> > about the more successful methods of Europe and
> > eksewhere?
>
> Please do not believe everything you read about
> the AA. I was reading an anti-AA article recently
> and realized it was based on false premises.
>
> * There are *NO* reliable AA statistics anywhere.
> It is an anonymous organization. Even the org's
> own stats are unreliable.

Own stats are unreliable? And you are promoting this as a worthwhile religion (kinda like Mormonism)? George Valliant was on the AA board of directors and a Harvard professor. He ran a well run Longitudinal study of their success rate. Google it!
>
> * AA *never* discourages its attendees from
> seeking other forms of help, such as medical
> intervention etc as you claim. In many cases it
> provides free advice for where you can get this.

AA consistently discourages any other form of help. A statement such as this would be like LDS inc claiming they do not discourage their membership from joining other faiths. They may claim so in public, the reality is quite different.
>
> * AA is extremely cheap to run. Much more so than
> the alternatives (which it does not seek to
> replace). It does provide a peer support network
> of a nature most medical personnel will not be
> able to replicate.

Over 90% of American spin drys use the AA faith to counter their concocted “disease” The spin dry I was forced to for 34 days(above and beyond the standard 28 day Harold Hughes model)because I have “Cadillac” insurance was billed at $34k. The only thing that hellhole did was seize our phones, lock is down, and drive us around town in an old van to different AA meetings. This was 2007. Many of my “classmate inmates” (their were 11 other) accepted the AA thing. I did not. ALL of the classmates are now dead.
>
> * AA does not have to be religious. I have known
> atheist AA members, who consider G.O.D. to be
> "group of drunks" - their higher power is their
> peer support.

You may want to reread the required prayer in Step 7. And never ever believe that steps are merely “suggestions” People are denied organ transplants, terminated from employment, subject to incarceration, and occasionally lose parental right for not STRICTLY adhering to AA “suggestions”


> Even if AA has a success rate of under 10%, that
> would be a good thing. But I don't believe that to
> be the case. Many people do stay off drink etc due
> to these groups. But they do not, repeat do not,
> stop people going on medication etc. Sadly those
> don't have a complete success rate either. AA
> helps provide love, support and advice from
> experience that is lacking in medical care and
> helps round it out.

Medications are routinely discouraged, even though cannabis and LSD show many signs of successfully changing the habit of alcohol abuse and PTSD. I have personally witnessed the discouragement of cannabis, anti depressants, blood pressure medication, and insulin- always with the excuse of “trading one drug from another” from high seniority sponsors who claim more authority than licensed physicians. And yes, they are killing people. If you ever go to meeting shortly after one of their members commit suicide (which is frequent) you would be sickened at the comments. Many of the comments start with the word “Good”

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 11:52AM

AnonInCali Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with you that the success rate of the
> American recovery industry is sorely lacking. I
> recently started reading "US of AA" which I am
> finding fascinating. What have you discovered
> about the more successful methods of Europe and
> eksewhere?


The AA religion has a less than 5% success rate according to their own internal numbers from their senior management.

Google the George Valliant Study.

The United States uses the very faulty “disease model” pf addiction. The reason this is used is due to the American medical system only wants to “treat” medical conditions rather than actually cure them. The concoction of disease (the only “disease” that actually had to go to a hand vote) requiring lifetime treatment as well as family treatment has created a $50 billion a year industry. The recovery industry cartel continues to walk the tightrope of claiming a medical disease while treating it with the heavy duty religious practices of 12 stepism. Cult member steptards will go to any lemgth (including knowingly lying) to protect their religion.

As far as the European models, google the Sinclair method in conjunction with Naltrexone.

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Posted by: AA veteran ( )
Date: October 19, 2019 09:20AM

There are no reliable stats on AA success because it is ANONYMOUS!

Read the reply above and please stop spreading untruths about a group which has helped thousands of people.

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Posted by: Pantylover ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 01:12AM

Hey Gheco,
Also a lifelong Montanan here. Actually grew up on a Reservation. No amount of outside help will do anything on the Rez. Their problems are mostly of their own making...the biggest being there are too many incentives to STAY on the REZ rather than leave and get an education, good job, see the world, expand your horizons...you get it.

Anyway, one of my good friends is a Sheriff and has to decide if suicides are actually suicides before they take the body to the morgue. He says most suicides here are 60 year old men and 40 year old women. The thinks they are both because society stops valuing them at that age. Men stop working, women lose their looks and get lost in "momming" and no one notices them.

Mootman, the men aren't brainwashed to work and take care of a family. They are REAL MEN who don't squash the natural instinct to take care of females and children. They don't wear buns and tight jeans and get triple foam lattes and stare at screens all day. Sure, they wear camo to weddings but they are not stupid and most can DO everything from fix cars to build their own houses to grow their own crops.

Winters aren't so bad here anymore which has caused a HUGE influx of Californians which we ALL hate, so if you move here don't say you're from "THAT PLACE." We call them "Pataguchis" because they bike and hike in designer clothing and triple the price of our property tax by buying houses here at astronomical prices. Then they demand the streetlights and sidewalks and decked out parks they left behind--further taxing us. So, yeah, Westen Montana is the garden of freaking eden and now that people can work from anywhere the locals are being taxed out. Farmland is worth more as residential or recreational. All the mining and logging is being shut down. Its sad, I miss the wild Montana of my youth.

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Posted by: Grand Central ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 07:14AM

"the biggest being there are too many incentives to STAY on the REZ rather than leave and get an education, good job, see the world, expand your horizons...you get it."

I've never understood why Americans have to be so rootless. It does not always serve them so well.

In the case of Native Americans - and I am not one - some sense of place and rootedness is surely of benefit to them in a society which has not treated them well. If you have little, having something is of benefit psychologically. Not going to one place and another where you don't feel you belong...

Also, these days, your statement is not what it used to be. With the arrival of telecommunications, the internet etc, we are now in any age where a lot of jobs can be done theoretically almost anywhere. You don't need to rent an expensive downtown office in a major city when people can work from home. Education ditto - you can do a lot of that online now. Even the tutorials.

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Posted by: Gheco ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 12:02PM

Grand Central Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "the biggest being there are too many incentives
> to STAY on the REZ rather than leave and get an
> education, good job, see the world, expand your
> horizons...you get it."
>
> I've never understood why Americans have to be so
> rootless. It does not always serve them so well.
>
> In the case of Native Americans - and I am not one
> - some sense of place and rootedness is surely of
> benefit to them in a society which has not treated
> them well. If you have little, having something is
> of benefit psychologically. Not going to one place
> and another where you don't feel you belong...
>
> Also, these days, your statement is not what it
> used to be. With the arrival of
> telecommunications, the internet etc, we are now
> in any age where a lot of jobs can be done
> theoretically almost anywhere. You don't need to
> rent an expensive downtown office in a major city
> when people can work from home. Education ditto -
> you can do a lot of that online now. Even the
> tutorials.


The problem is not physically being on the reservation, but the reservation mindset. It is hard to explain, you kinda have to witness it. There are crushing drug and alcohol problems with the corresponding crimes.

The reservation is the home of families, clans, and tribes. All are extremely important to the Native peoples. There are NO jobs, and families have gone through generations of never seeing a family member go to work. Assimilation with modern job expectations have not happened (ever hear of Indian time?)

The good news is (in my humble opinion) the younger generation has really tried to assimilate into the majority culture. I believe this is due to expanded use of social media which has greatly increased communications between the cultures.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 11:59AM

Wyoming is worse.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: October 20, 2019 08:32PM

I lived in Seattle, WA when my son was born. When he was a couple of weeks old, my mother, who once had been stationed at Ft. Lewis, WA, in Tacoma, remarked frequently how much she loathed the often-cloudy skies of Seattle.

I found the grey skies to be soothing. And on those particularly dazzling days of blue skies and sunshine, Washington State is next to none!

But I can remember talking to people who complained that the often gloomy weather made them think about suicide.

That strikes me as tragic.

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Posted by: shakinthedust ( )
Date: October 15, 2019 11:50PM

There's a lot of guns here, therefore easily available means. Winters are long and dark--we are pretty far north (farther north than Toronto) so nights are longer. There's a lot of alcohol here, which is a depressant. The economy isn't great--good jobs are hard to find. Farmers are really suffering, especially from the tariffs. Population is low and not very dense, and isolation is common. It's a recipe for disaster.

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Posted by: beanhead ( )
Date: October 18, 2019 11:28PM

I typed in "suicide belt" and West Virginia also popped up as one of the high suicide states.

This video "Oxyana" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5xAu1csU_c is about the pill problem that's ruining the state. It's the east coast version of Montana's problems.

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Posted by: tumwater ( )
Date: October 20, 2019 09:51PM

Too bad this message thread turned super serious, I had a totally inappropriate joke about the topic.

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