I have a daughter who is a Junior at the Y. She went in with a testimony like her believing Father, but is now so uncomfortable there, that she's not sure she can make it.

Listening to her talk about religion is interesting.

She's used some thinking skills learned in class to realize that the Mormon church is cult-lite. (her words)

She claims that the "word" at church is that at least 50% of returned missionaries become non-believers within several months of returning.

This statistic was even provided by her Bishop over the pulpit and she says he cited some study he had access to internally.

She argues that true friendship with ward members doesn't exist by definition, because those that try to be the most interested in your life are actually using that information to report on you in some way or another.

She finds it interesting that so many students are liberal socially and it confuses her given the church's stance on gay marriage etc.

She foresees mass exodus as a result of that one issue.

I'm wondering how many BYU students are like her.

It sounds as if you have an intelligent and well-balanced daughter. You should be proud.

Ditto ^^^

It's nice she feels able to talk to you too.
I hope she can finish without imploding OK.

eek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She finds it interesting that so many students are
> liberal socially and it confuses her given the
> church's stance on gay marriage etc.
>
> She foresees mass exodus as a result of that one
> issue.
>
> I'm wondering how many BYU students are like her.

I have 3 missionary daughters. 2 socially liberal and the youngest not.

I don't think there will be a mass exodus. The church was able to be racist for a very long time. I see gay marriage the issue that will only change once the people who didn't grow up with it are very long dead.

Racism in the church went a very very long time. We forget that fact.

I think people are more aware, more sensitive to the opinions & needs of others these days, aside from predictions of any 'mass exodus'


my shelf had its first crack while on my mish, but I stayed for a long time afterwards.

I would say she's likely socially liberal because she doesn't know any better. I was too at that age. young innocent, believing everyone was good and mean old rich people were the cause of our troubles. But as I grew older and got a job I got wiser. I would say encourage her to forget about the academia indoctrination and start making an income. Money is better than research.

So true. Money is better than conscience. It's better than principles. Better than kindness, love, just about anything. Money is really all there is. It'll keep you warm at night and comfort you on your death bed.

Thank you.

I was going to applaud macaRomney's post by noting the high correlation between great wealth and minimal education but your venture into sardonicism is sharper than mine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2019 08:03PM by Lot's Wife.

Your deep belief in the worthlesssness of education never ceases to amaze. I'm curious as to what you think would constitute a good education. In retrospect, I actually feel like I got a pretty decent liberal arts education at BYU, in spite of the best efforts of some of the faculty to prevent that.

I came out of the academic trenches not that long ago, far outside the Morridor. My experience was that students I encountered were more socially liberal than the students were 25 years ago, and less socially liberal than students 50 years ago, though it is kind of hard to compare, because Vietnam and the draft colored so much of everything back then.

Perhaps it is just one generation deciding to be the opposite of the previous generation, which seems to happen every thirty years or so. Whatever it is, the pendulum sure seems to be swinging toward social liberalism. I must say that I am somewhat surprised this is even true at the Zoo. This, combined with the LDS hierarchy STILL acting all homophobic does not bode well for the future of Mormonism. They are alienating both the cynics and the idealists. At least in the 1960s, the Lowell Bennions and Eugene Englands and Ed Firmages and Carol Lynn Pearsons and Hugh B Browns gave the idealists something to hang onto. I don't see any equivalent to people like that today.

macaRomney Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would say she's likely socially liberal because
> she doesn't know any better. I was too at that
> age. Young, innocent, believing everyone was good
> and mean old rich people were the cause of our
> troubles. But as I grew older and got a job I got
> wiser.

If she's not a liberal when she's twenty, she doesn't have a heart.
And if she's not a conservative when she's forty, she doesn't have a brain.

A lot of people would disagree with this.

It's just a cliche.

And as we see so frequently, the converse--if a person is a conservative at 40, s/he has a brain--is as dubious as the original statement.

Yes, I believe that is right. Stated in self-deprecating jest, taken by some as a profound truth.

It strikes me as a pithy demonstration of Churchill's straight-out truth, sardonic yet profound. As we have all come out of a cult, we realize that truth is often painful, and even ugly, as when Churchill told Lady Astor:

"You're ugly."
To which she replied, "Sir, you're drunk!"
To which Churchill replied, "Yes, but tomorrow I'l be sober."

As recounted by the NY Times,* and we know that the Times always speaks the truth.

*Also attributed to other sources.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2019 02:05PM by caffiend.

Yes, but Churchill did not think his humorous observation was universally valid as evidenced by his cooperation with Labour against his own party in the years from 1932 through 1939. And by US standards the man was well on the left wrt social policy till the end of his days.

At one level he was right: the exigencies of middle age make people more conservative in many ways. But WC honored his quip as much in the breach as in conformity.

Allow me to retry.

Churchill was a politician, and thus adjusted his positions and alliances. But he was a Tory, and a conservative by ideology and temperament. Anticipating hostilities with Germany was his paramount priority. As many Tories failed to recognize the growing German threat (some were very enchanted by it), he pivoted and turned to the Labor Party for support. Strange bedfellows and all that.

Connecting Churchill with "American liberalism" is quite a stretch, possible on perhaps a few issues; you didn't provide specifics or examples. Perhaps some parts of the historic American left? I can't imagine Churchill having any truck with the current American left.

I don't think his "Liberal in youth, conservative in age" witticism (more than "just a cliche") was meant as "self-deprecating jest," but rather as a sardonic truth.

Allow me to conclude with a fun Churchill quote (so many to chose from!):

“Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.”

I didn't think your post was too political. It had virtually nothing to do with modern party politics and hence, in my book, and like your post here, should not have been deleted.

With that as context, Churchill's quip was indeed self-deprecating humor. My reference, although I didn't express it directly, was to his earlier life. You'll recall that his father, Randolph, defected from his party towards the end of his career and was considered a traitor for doing so. Winston did the same thing--more than once. He was initially elected as a Tory, but in the early 1900s found himself siding more with the left than the right--he advocated free trade, opposed protectionism, and favored immigration and trade unions--and on that basis switched parties and was in 1905 or 1906 elected as a Liberal. He was in fact critical to the formation of a couple of Liberal cabinets.

Later he returned to the Tories but he did in the 1930s cooperate again with the Left--and throughout his political life he was always an arch-globalist. He supported the League of Nations and decried its evisceration in the 1930s; he encouraged the establishment of the United Nations, the World Bank, and the IMF; and he consistently valued, and preserved, security alliances and free trade through the end of his career. He espoused those things because they were, in his view and for most of his life that of his contemporaries in both parties, recognized as the wellsprings of national power.

I think the key to understanding his relationship to conservatism is to recognize that the meaning of that word is radically different today than it was a century ago. On trade, international organizations, alliances, and a number of other topics today's Tories bear little resemblance to those of Churchill's era. And Churchill was more liberal than his partisans on a number of issues, including immigration and workers' rights. Churchill would accordingly have shared little with Boris Johnson for the simple reason that he was a traditional conservative, an establishment conservative, and not an isolationist populist.

And given his personal record, it is entirely possible that he would have reacted to the transformation of conservatism by switching sides. He had, after all, already done that twice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/28/2019 03:36AM by Lot's Wife.

She has liberal thoughts because she's smart. I would encourage her to read everything that interests her to increase her awareness of science, history and philosophy. I think that on that last subject, Mormons are especially ignorant. I would never encourage a child to use college for strictly vocational purposes. What a dull idea!

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would never encourage a child to use
> college for strictly vocational purposes. What a
> dull idea!

Love, love, love this. For people who want children to work in factories, college life without strictly vocational purposes is a waste of their money.

It's one of the great tragedies of modern life, this mistaken belief that the (sole) purpose of education is to make money.

When a society stops thinking about beauty and morality as manifested in history and literature and art, it loses its soul. Politically, economically, socially, environmentally, that society is in deep trouble.

Strict obedience to church leaders, the way it’s practiced, is basically idolatry. What did Jesus teach about idolatry? If it’s not your daughter’s cup of tea, I think the attrition rate is bad enough that they won’t make her drink it. Maybe she can make something good out of the church, but it’s not in everyone’s disposition.

Personally, I could stomach the church if they’d just refrain from saying brain dead sh*t. But if they got rid of that there wouldn’t be much left.

is able to rationalize mormon teachings about gays and she has "so much respect for her father" and not as much for the mother who stayed and raised her. I think she is in denial, suppressing the reality of what the church is telling her.

I knew I had some hope for her after she saw Bohemian Rhapsody--even the fact she saw it as I didn't think she would. Her brother and I were not hopeful that she picked up on the issues that have affected our lives. When I asked her about it, she said, "Being gay is a lot more complex than people think it is."

Somewhere deep down in that child she knows the truth. She's trying for that guarantee of it she lives "right," then she will not go through what we all went through. I tried for that guarantee, too. She just thinks I didn't feel the spirit as strongly as she has. ha ha ha ha ha ha

I can't imagine going to BYU. I'm surprised anyone comes out of there with belief in the mormon church. I was devout and I spent a youth conference there and I could NEVER have gone to BYU.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2019 12:03PM by cl2.

I went to BYU in the 80’s which was a time everyone just wanted to have fun. The Cold War was winding down and Gorbechev didn’t seem too threatening. We didn’t have all the terrorism scare and all these Middle East wars. The country was not divided like it is not. Sure you had the Democrat vs Republican thing but that was like rival sports teams.

A lot of people I knew at BYU were there because they got a break on tuition, their parents went to BYU and it was family tradition, their parents would only pay for BYU.

The religious part of it seemed to get dwarfed by the social life and the love of BYU sports. I found plenty of girls that would put on the good Mormon girl show but they loved sex and seemed to have no guilt about it. It’s at BYU that I discovered many Mormons put on a well rehearsed show and tell the leaders what they want to hear but do what they want. Not everyone there was sleeping around but plenty were.

What’s funny is my nephew is a bishop of a university ward and he told me it’s kind of depressing how many of these young kids confess to him they have been having sex. I was thinking that’s the tip of the iceberg. Those are the minority who felt guilty. No bishop the students at the institute is screwing each other. This is nothing new. People like sex and they are going to have sex and then they are going to lie about having it. The ones who feel guilty are few and far between.

This is an interesting post. I don't have any experience of BYU during the period you describe and accept what you say. It's a bit surprising--the sex--but I'm learning.

I would, however, like to add some nuance to your description of the world in that period. It may have seemed like a peaceful time, and in some ways the late 1980s were better, but the overall decade was far less halcyon than you suggest. What that means, I surmise, is that BYU was in something of a bubble, unaware of the complexities that were roiling the world.

Globally, the US and the USSR came close to nuclear war in the early 1980s: Reagan was elected in part because Americans thought the Soviets were endangering US security; he started his presidency with some real hawks as advisors, and initiated new weapons programs that infuriated Moscow and stimulated consideration of pre-emptive strikes in Europe. When the Soviets shot down a South Korean airliner in 1982 (?) the rhetoric heated up sharply and both superpowers discussed war publicly and privately. Nuclear war suddenly became a real possibility. The tension continued until about 1987, which was roughly when people began to think Gorbachev was serious about reform.

The Middle East was at least as messed up then as now. The Iranian Revolution had recently occurred and the regional balance of power was in flux. Iran invaded Iraq in 1980 and the United States was actively supporting Saddam Hussein against the revolutionary regime. Meanwhile, the Soviets had invaded Afghanistan and the CIA was arming the Islamicists aggressively, with Moscow threatening to take the war directly to the US in retaliation. In 1987-1988 the US engaged in a large-scale war against Iran (the Tanker War) that Congress chose not to recognize or authorize and that was largely hidden from the public. But it was major and entailed significant loss of life as well as the possibility of escalation. So Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq: the United States was indirectly but significantly at war in all of those places.

This violence fed right into waves of terrorism--some indigenous, some sponsored by Iran, some supported by the USSR. Israel invaded Lebanon at the beginning of the decade, and violence surged in Gaza, the West Bank, and Lebanon. The US suffered from this when, for example, Iranian-backed terrorists blew up a marine barracks and Washington responded by pulling its forces out of Lebanon in a way that encouraged more terrorism. A number of Westerners were kidnapped and assassinated in the following years, and with Soviet support a wave of terror spread across Europe--Berlin, Paris, Greece, and many other places were hit with Americans high on the list of terrorists. Reagan replied by bombing Libya and nearly killing Qaddafi in 1986 (?) in a manner that again raised the specter of superpower war.

Your comments about relations between the Dems and the Republicans are certainly correct; things there didn't go to Hades until 1993-4. But if BYU thought the world was peaceful in the 1980s, it was mistaken. That strikes me as plausible since the Mountain West and Mormonism were in many ways divorced from the rest of the world, probably even more so than today.

>Globally, the US and the USSR came close to nuclear war in the early 1980s

Closer than most people realize: A series of coincidences and misunderstandings, coupled with cold war paranoia (esp. on the part of Andropov) came very close to nuclear war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83

Not to mention all the stuff that went down in Central America. The 80s were crazy!

Yes, I intended, but forgot, to mention Nicaragua and related proxy conflicts as well.

My 2 semesters at Ricks killed of whatever meager belief I may have had in the church.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2019 02:22PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

If your daughter isn't sure she will make it through--take her out of BYU, tomorrow! Have her transfer to another college--even a good junior college. Have her work her way through, and live a more normal life. Send her to Europe for a year. Let her live at home and have a local job, and spend time with friends she grew up with, and find out who she really is. I did all those things after I graduated from BYU, after a toxic, abusive relationship with a Mormon RM, after the love of my life had married someone else, after I changed my career path. I worked, and went to graduate school at a decent university, and I consider that my "Alma Mater", and I don't talk about BYU, except here on RFM. My children didn't go there, and I'm making sure my grandchildren won't, either.

As fun as the girls dorms were, and the skiing, and the dances and social activities, I was much happier in the summers, going to my hometown university and working. I had an opportunity at the U of Utah, and went to a year there, and that one year was my "college education." I was coerced into going back to finish up at BYU, because I would have lost a lot of credits, and all of the religion credits, which the U didn't accept. That mistake ruined my life! Looking back, I was a fool to trade happiness and success in SLC for more of the same-old misery and depression in Provo. I was suicidal, at one point.

I don't care if your daughter is only a few credits away from graduation--get her out of there! If she has to make up credits, Let her have an extra year or two at a REAL university, with real people. She is likely to meet her future spouse in school, and, Dear Lord, let it not be someone at BYU!

My sister who is 17 months older than I am had gone to byu. She moved home to get away from her boyfriend (later found out he is gay--2 for 2 in my family). She met someone else and was engaged. She thought I should move to Provo to meet someone. My boyfriend was leaving on a mission and she didn't like him. So she went down and found me an apartment and later on, I went down to live. The girls in the first apartment didn't want me. The second ones were nice. I moved my stuff in and went with my sister's old roommates for the day. I tend to get very homesick. After I went with her roommates, they took me back at about 11 p.m. and my key didn't fit. I went to the office and nobody answered the door, so I spent the week with my sister's roommates.

The managers of the apartments didn't want to give me my deposit and rent back, but byu had a list of owners and I got in touch with the owner. I actually found a job working for the police department, but I packed up and went home. I went on to find the best job I've ever had at Thiokol in Promontory, Utah. Those were the best years of my life.

I always had that ick feeling like someone else talked about when I went to church colleges. I hated that place in Hawaii. Oh, Polynesian Cultural Center. Expensive and over-rated. We went to Hawaii on our honeymoon.

Ew-ew-ew! I went to Laie on my honeymoon, too!

MAJOR FLASHBACKS!!

My temple ex-husband's father was an arrogant, big-wig, buffoon GA, that many write about here on RFM. Believe me, this creep deserves to be disliked. Our whole honeymoon was on the church's dime. Thanks, all of you tithe-payers, for our free one-month stay in a beach house right on the beach!

My ex's family were too important and self-righteous to attend their own son's wedding, even though it was at a fancy country club, with other important Mormon GA's and Mormon Who's Whos in attendance. I met my new sister-in-law for the first time at the Polynesian Cultural Center, and she asked me how I was getting along with her brother. I said everything was great. She then told me that he had beaten her, constantly, all her life, and that, finally, he had injured her so badly, that social services had removed her from that house. My ex's mother was handicapped, and needed my ex to lift her, so my ex stayed in the house, and the sister left home.

"Oh, and Happy Hawaii Vacation to you, too, new sister-in-law! Let's all go to the temple together, now!" They had the live play, when we were there. God help me, I was so far away from home, with a severe infection, and a fever.

After we got home, my ex beat me almost every day--for no reason--but he made me feel it was my fault, somehow. He said I was his eternal wife and could never leave, and I was his possession, and that according to D & C 132, he could do whatever he wanted to me. I was working to put him through school, and after work, I sneaked off to the library and read everything I could find about anger-management issues, and psychopaths, and spousal abuse (it was pretty much unknown and unmentioned back in those days), and decided the only way to save myself was to get a divorce. I planned my escape very carefully, because I was scared to death of him, and afraid of what he might do to my family. He put us all through Hell. He was a very sick person.

"Brothers and sisters, aloha!" That's how the GA dad would begin his talks in Hawaii, and the congregation would answer in unison "Alooooha!" The Mormon a-holes pretended to "love" the Polynesians, but you could tell they felt superior to them, and treated them in a condescending manner, and the Mormon Polynesians didn't seem to be aware of this