After listening to Tom Phillips' podcast with John Dehlin from 2012 (you can find it on Mormon Stories) I cannot help but wonder if he has reclaimed any of his family. Have any come out of the delusion and realized their father, grandfather, husband was right?

The points of the podcast that stuck with me include the idea that the church's stand on Joseph Smith's morality, their doctrine, origin of the BofM, etc. is totally indefensible from even a purely faith standpoint. So, the only way the apostles can defend themselves or the church itself is to use the "These things can only be explained through faith" which is a non-answer or to point a finger at a questioning member and declare them lost and evil which is also a non-answer. With their backs against the wall they can only rage and accuse because there is no defense of their teachings.

The other point that came out most poignantly was that Mormonism has a lot to answer for in their destruction of families. Yes, they may teach a lot of good values that are family friendly but when you encourage families to shun members who no longer believe you create heartache, split allegiances, torment, pain, anger, misunderstandings, destruction of wealth, and many more regrettable and horrific outcomes. There is no defense for this.

Why can't the apostles make a simple, published statement saying that loss of faith or testimony is not a sin. Family members who leave the church should still be loved and respected. Losing a testimony is not a sin. Pretending to believe when you don't is called hypocrisy and Jesus was wholly against hypocrisy.

They won't ever say this because they care more for the institution and all the loss of members who might follow that non-believer out of the church. They are ruled by fear rather than love. And wives and children might also lose faith or go inactive and possibly take all that tithing money with them. I truly believe the apostles would rather watch the destruction of loving families than lose a single tithing dollar. If they really put families first, prove it. Christ would try to bring the lost sheep back rather than destroy him.

No, none of my family (children) have come to their senses and denied the church.

In fact my grandchildren have gone on missions and been married in the temple despite being highly educated.

It has now been over 15 years since I told them I no longer believe. They say they love me but refuse to discuss the church except when they tell me about missions and temple marriages.

Hi Tom, I suspect the church works harder to keep them in because of your reputation . Still it's not over till it's over so let's hope. My former missionary and long term member friend has completley turned after one specific piece of information .i couldn't have predicted that.
The best revenge is to live well. Best wishes from old friends .

Too bad they can't see that relationships are a two way street. If they can go on about missios and temple weddings, then we should be able to go on about at least two exmo topics! Right????

You are absolutely right, but they don't see it

Thanks for your reply Tom! I'm so sorry to hear it.

I felt a special connection because I joined the same year (1969) as you only I was still a child. I left only a few years before you. My mother was the "Golden Contact" in our family. But it was I who ended up going whole hog into Mormonism. My dad was anti-Mormon from the get go even though he was the one that let the missionaries in the first time they came to our door. Boy, did he regret that.

After less than a year my dad had enough of us being Mormon and asked my mother to resign. Mom went to the bishop and he asked her if she wanted to resign. Mom, not knowing anything more about the church than what was in the missionary discussions, said she did not want to resign but she had a stronger commitment to her marriage than to the church. YAY Mom! I'll always be grateful that Mom felt that way about Dad. So the bishop, bless his heart, told her to stop coming to church but he would not remove her name from the records.

My sister joined but I think it had more to do with her attraction to the missionaries and the social activities. When she could not find a Mormon husband for a temple wedding (we live in the Midwest USA) she gradually became inactive. She has now joined an evangelical church with lots of activities and helping hand members unlike the current, local ward which is dwindling. I honestly have no idea whether or not she still believes in Mormonism. We never discuss it. I've told her all I've learned about Mormonism but she has never commented.

I'm telling you all this because my greatest regret is that the only thing that ever came between my father and myself was the Mormon Church. Dad and I were extremely close. We would have long, drag out arguments about Mormonism but we always walked away respecting one another. These sessions drove Mom nuts.

On his death bed (I was still TBM then) my dad told me he appreciated that I would talk/argue with him because it was better than everyone else refusing to discuss it with him. This is why I know how you must feel. Unfortunately, neither my dad nor I had our hands on any of the truth about Mormonism that is so available today. Dad only had an innate sense that Mormonism was a fraud but none of the historical facts. I only had what the church fed me. I had gone to our local library before my baptism but only found a BofM and a short paragraph about Joseph Smith in the encyclopedia. Oh, well. There was not internet then.

Fast forward, I did it all. I graduated from BYU. I served a mission. I ended up with a job at BYU-Idaho. But as a church administrator I saw a lot of the inside stuff (hypocrisy, in fighting, greed, super egos, misogyny, lies, etc.) that surprised me. I still believed in JS and BofM but I was disappointed in the church. But, also like you, there were so many wonderful people.

Then one day a book fell into my hands. It was published by Utah State University. It was a compilation of the journals of known wives of Joseph Smith. I was gobsmacked. It was very well researched, documented, and verified. It was not an anti-Mormon book. I was just academic research. I even went to the Utah State University Institute of Religion and asked the teachers there if what I was reading was true. They said, "Yes, it's all true BUT the church is still true". YIKES! I learned about the Expositor. I learned about husbands being sent on missions so JS could be sealed to their wives. I did additional research on William Law. It was making my head spin. The final straw was when, by accident, I turned on the TV and happened to hear our prophet talking to Larry King about there not being any doctrine about men becoming like God. This was one of the doctrines I had taught on my mission and the prophet was denying it. This was also one of the doctrines that I had been taught as an investigator by the missionaries as proof that Heavenly Father wanted his children to be just like Him. That he loved us enough to give us everything he had including his exalted position as a god.

Oh, it all fell apart for me then. And I was so sad that I did not have the chance to tell my father that he had been right all those years. He only had instinct guiding him but I had facts. My loving, earthly, REAL father had loved me enough to let me make my own choice but he always tried to steer me to the truth.

Tom, I hope your family doesn't come to the same realization I did after you are gone. It hurts me so much now that I cannot put my arms around my dad and tell him he was right. Now I know how good his intentions were. I now understand his suffering. He never told me I was stupid or deceived but he just kept trying to point out the things that didn't smell right about Mormonism. My dad could smell a lie from a mile away and he was always right. I really should have known.

This is why I am so sad to see children of any faith being indoctrinated by religion. I know it is hopeless to think parents should not raise their children in religion but it takes a fully mature brain to comprehend the delusions that are being fed to the child's mind. Children incorporate fantasy into their mindset and it is nearly impossible to root that out later in life. That stuff sticks in the brain like glue. Churches get that part right. "Teach them while they are young and they will not depart from it."

Like you, Tom, now that I see the world and life with a clarity that comes after rooting out the lies and deception of Mormonism, I am so much happier. I still don't drink or smoke but not because of religious conviction. I abstain only for health benefits. I have an occasional sip of champagne and my father (bless his heart) taught me how good beer tastes with salami. Occasionally I drink coffee. But now, like my English forefathers, I drink lots of lovely tea. Tea is great. It comes in so many varieties. It is such a civilizing tradition. And, like a good American, I even drink it on ice. All this with no guilt!

Life is great. I do not fear the afterlife. I do not fear God. I have learned, like you, to relish truth, honesty, and integrity. Reality is the world I live in now.

My wish for you, Tom, is that at least one of your family members will see the light someday. It's always possible. All they have to do is see the cracks, begin to wonder, and let curiosity take them to a new understanding of what is right, good, and honest.

All my best to you. Thank you for your podcast. Happy Trails friend.

(This is a bit long but, hey, I listened to the WHOLE podcast.)

See? This is what’s wrong with RfM. /s. <sniff...>

Once again, heartfelt thanks to Tom for his courage to leave and call out the fraud that is LDS, Inc. The collateral damage to the relationships with his family is most unfortunate. What continues to amaze me about Tom is that, unlike most of us, he received some of the highest ordinances that LDS, Inc. can offer (or as LDS, Inc. would say - Jesus himself can offer) and yet he was still able to see the fraud, the abuse, the lies, the deception.

Several years ago I wrote John Dehlin and told him that Tom's interview is, in my view, the most important interview he has ever done. To this day I don't think there is another quite like it. Tom's interview remains in the 'top 25' on Mormon Stories.

If you haven't heard Tom's interview I suggest you get a cozy chair, grab a cup of coffee and listen carefully. He exposes so-called apostles of JC that couldn't come up with reasonable answers (in some cases no answers at all) to the tough questions regarding the problematic truth claims of LDS, Inc.

I can say that Tom's interview made a difference in my life - I think it can help virtually anyone that is struggling with the truth claims of LDS, Inc. Bravo Tom - Bravo!

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/tom-phillips-and-the-second-anointing/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2019 08:29PM by tamboruco.

Thanks tamboruco.

Tom