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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 07:30AM

New here. Still learning about LDS doctrines, beliefs and practices.

Today I am asking about Mormons and abortion. I presume they oppose it among members, probably even for rape and incest.

But more specifically, to a convert... how do they view a convert that has had an abortion(s)? Do the sealing and forever family in celestial heaven include the aborted babies? I mean they baptize the dead... can they baptize the aborted?

I guess they need a name but if the mother is there alive to give them a name, hurdle passed, right? And it doesn’t matter if the father is dead or out of the picture or even unknown, does it? As long as she finds a Mormon man to marry her in the temple she can have her kids sealed to him, even if they already have a living father... does what include aborted ones?

And I would presume if so that the aborted fetus would be a perfect adult in the Celestial Kingdom as their god promotes everyone who gets there to their peak form, right? People who die old aren’t old there, people who die at age 2 aren’t 2 there...

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 09:05AM

Your mind is going to turn into a pretzel!

The LDS views are somewhat convoluted.
They can justify forgiveness for a convert I think. Also, if a member has an abortion to save the mother or by rape they have loopholes.

They are dodgy about when life begins. I don't recall officially when they think some "spirit" inhabits the fetus.
Imagine the problem if every early miscarriage (God apparently gets to direct abortion all the time) was thought of as a child in the Celestial Kingdom. I would think most women might not know if they sluffed a fertilized egg that didn't implant. Mormons are not as weird as Catholics about birth control, so using an IUD or Plan B could prevent a fertilized egg from going any further.

So, they just don't talk about things like that. Now, a still born baby would often be assumed to be part of the celestial family. I never did temple work for zygotes. Any children under the age of 8 get a free pass to the CK. This is a whole different problem because I'm guessing the CK would have a majority of third world poor children who died. I guess their parents are expected to join in the next life or something.

IOW, I believe their answer your question would be their standard "God will sort it out" in heaven.

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Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 09:36AM

They would consider it irrelevant. Any past sins are washed away at baptism.

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Posted by: elove ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 10:05AM

> They would consider it irrelevant. Any past sins
> are washed away at baptism.

I figured the sin of the abortion would be forgiven. That seems pretty standard.

I was wondering about the future CK corporeality of the aborted fetuses. Sounds like no one is quite sure, they just don’t talk about it and trust God to sort it out.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 10:46AM

Funny how God is very clear about how much money you need to pay and how many earrings to wear but somehow can't give a straight answer about things like fetuses in heaven and evolution.

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Posted by: Beth ( )
Date: December 02, 2019 09:22PM


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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 10:52PM

The leaders of the church focus on important things. Nobody needs to know really what happens after death. It's enough to know that if you obey the leaders of the church NOW, then you will be better off after you die.

Statistics are very important. Tithing is very important. White shirts are very important. Optimally minimized earring displays are important. Optimally minimized facial hair is important. Abstinence from green tea is important. Long underwear with Masonic symbols is important.

Understanding any of it is not important. Faith is important.

Pretending to be a dead person whom you never knew, while being dunked in a tub and then "learning" some sacred handshakes is important.

Understanding why it is important...is not important.

If you have any "why" questions for the leaders of the church, don't bother asking. The answer will ultimately always be some variation of "because we say so." So there it is.

Once you know the rules of the game you can go forward with confidence that you're on the right path and ultimately will arrive at a destination that nobody really knows much of anything about.

Hope that clears up any confusion.

I have to say...blubber, blubber...that this is why I am so...sob, sob...grateful that I was born into a ladder-dazed saint family and...weep, weep...sit at the feet of wise and inspired leaders who...cry, cry...can tell me what color shirt I should wear and how many hours I should spend in meetings.....

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 01:25PM

Love this.

"Pretending to be a dead person whom you never knew, while being dunked in a tub and then "learning" some sacred handshakes is important.

Understanding why it is important...is not important."

Priceless.

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Posted by: commongentile ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 11:00AM

A fully-grown spirit child of Heavenly Father and Mother has been eagerly waiting to be born into an earthly tabernacle (body) so he can make progress towards godhood. He sees a human couple making love and decides that the resulting fetus would be as good as any tabernacle to enter into. So when he sees that conception has taken place, he unites with the fetus. Unfortunately, the parents of the fetus do not take their tabernacle-providing responsibility seriously and abort the fetus. The fetus, containing the spirt child, enters into the spirit world and finds itself, due to its innocence, in the Paradise section of the spirit world instead of in the spirit prison. There, the fetus is lovingly cared for by residents of Paradise and it gradually develops into adulthood. If it has good fortune to have had its brief earthly existence documented by Mormons, it may have the opportunity to accept a vicarious baptism somehow done on its behalf by a Mormon teenager in a Temple. But at any rate, when the resurrection takes place, this resident of Paradise will somehow reunite with whatever remains of the matter that composed the fetus and Heavenly Father will instantly transform this into a glorified adult tabernacle (body).

[I suppose that the above may contain elements that are not accurate Mormon teachings, but I was just trying to imagine what would happen to an aborted baby from the standpoint of Mormonism.]

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Posted by: desertwoman ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 11:27AM

I have read that, according to church leaders, they do not know when the spirit enters the body of the baby before birth. Therefore, miscarriages, and possibly early abortions, are accepted. Of course, there are usually confessions to be made during the pre-baptism interview, unless the interviewee withholds information, either ignorantly or purposefully.

You might also want to consider this statement from the Mo-church.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/abortion

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 02:52PM

That pretty much fits stories I was told. They could explain it that way.

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Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 05:04PM

I have always been puzzled by the LDS position on abortion. Officially they oppose it, but practically, they don’t seem to get very worked up. I see pro-life billboards and signs in surrounding states, and picketers at abortion clinics.

Picketers at Planned Parenthood of Utah is a rare occurrence as far as I know, and I have never noticed pro-life signage in Utah. I had a prof at BYU who was on the board of Planned Parenthood of Utah.

Mormons just don’t seem all that rabidly anti-choice (except the state legislature, which is rabid about everything it touches). Like I said, it puzzles me.

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Posted by: cftexan ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 09:48PM

When I got an abortion in utah, the lady at Planned Parenthood said there aren't really protestors. Though they do have some people that will go form prayer circles nearby, but they aren't allowed on property. As far as protesting goes, I guess a prayer circle isn't that bad.

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Posted by: macaRomney ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 07:30PM

There isn't any official doctrine, I've always believed that the spirit enters at birth. So fetus' are not people. Abortion is a considered a very grave sin by mormons, the same as murder. And back when I was a missionary the mission president had to interview the candidate if they confessed this sin. Back in the early 2000s there was 4 very grave blasphemous sins, that were very questionable if they could be forgiven. These sins required 1st presidency or MP stamp of approval. The 4 grave sins were abortion, murder, homosexual relations, and rape. Robbery, white collar crimes, burglary was ok.

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Posted by: desertwoman ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 08:52PM

macaRomney wrote:

The 4 grave sins were abortion, murder, homosexual relations, and rape.

Where you list rape, was the sin of being the raper, or of having been raped?

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Posted by: EXON46 ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 01:11PM

All Those things say Penetration.

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Posted by: ApostNate ( )
Date: November 30, 2019 11:49PM

Yes, I had a few women investigators who had to be interviewed by the mission president because they'd had an abortion. Bestiality was another sin MP had to sign off on. It was quite common in an area in the country I served in so we had to ask about it. And to answer desertwoman my MP also had to interview some young boys who'd been molested by their mother's boyfriend. They didn't end up getting baptized, not sure if that was why. Never really found out as my mission ended shortly after that.

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Posted by: dumbmormons ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 10:55AM

ApostNate Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, I had a few women investigators who had to be
> interviewed by the mission president because
> they'd had an abortion. Bestiality was another sin
> MP had to sign off on. It was quite common in an
> area in the country I served in so we had to ask
> about it. And to answer desertwoman my MP also had
> to interview some young boys who'd been molested
> by their mother's boyfriend. They didn't end up
> getting baptized, not sure if that was why. Never
> really found out as my mission ended shortly after
> that.

Bestiality?

You know, it took a half dozen tries before sex with animals was made illegal in Utah. A Rep Harward(Utah Valley) would vote against making it law saying "you don't understand how it is in the rural areas".

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Posted by: HikergrlAZ ( )
Date: December 02, 2019 05:43PM

I was always taught (as Mormon) that the spirit enters the body with the first breath. Therefore, spirits of aborted babies would just go to another family... no big deal. Also, any type of birth control is fine. Incest, rape, and mother's health abortions are okay.

However, as a child (6 or 7th grade), I was shown a very disturbing anti-abortion film in Sunday school which gave me nightmares.

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Posted by: HikergrlAZ ( )
Date: December 02, 2019 05:46PM

I forgot to add that my friend who had an abortion had no problem being baptized. She just had to confess it.

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Posted by: dumbmormons ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 10:53AM

The mormon church believes in Abortion - they just want to control when and where.

The Catholic Church does not believe in abortion.

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Posted by: midwestanon ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 12:00PM

In what situations does the church approve abortions?

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 12:49PM

midwestanon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In what situations does the church approve
> abortions?

It depends if the stake president and or bishop is truly valued for his leadership skills.

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Posted by: nomo moses ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 01:03PM

The CHI lists the only possible exceptions for abortion are:

Rape or incest
The mother's life is in serious jeopardy
Sever defects such that the baby will not survive beyond birth

It then states it is still a serious matter and the persons should consult with the bishop.

The fetus would not have temple work done. The CHI specifically states that temple ordinances are not performed for even stillborn children. It then gives the wishy-washy excuse as others stated that god will sort it out. The specific statement is "Parents are encouraged to trust the Lord to resolve such cases in the way He knows is best."

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Posted by: midwestanon ( )
Date: December 03, 2019 09:28PM

I know it's semantics, but does that really mean the church ever 'approves' abortion?

I mean, I always got the impression the church had a vague judgmental 'tolerance' for the procedure if your situation happen to fit squarely into one of the approved categories; Rape/Incest, possible death of the mother, or severe birth defects.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 01:27PM

Only with priesthood buy-in.

"The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons involved have consulted with their local church leaders and feel through personal prayer that their decision is correct."

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/abortion

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 03:06PM

As ghawd is my silent witness, I have never had an abortion.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 03:40PM

And you never were one either.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 04:18PM

Correct.

But I have been a douche.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 04:45PM

Cleanliness is next to Godliness.

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Posted by: GNPE ( )
Date: December 04, 2019 05:36PM

ChurchCo 'doctrine' has so many exceptions / short-cuts, there's really no point in trying to figure it out. Really.

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Posted by: Whistler in the Wind ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 06:00AM

The LDS dislikes abortion, but it is not like the RC church. In the case of rape, incest, or a situation which endangers both mother and child, then the LDS gives grudging approval for killing the embryo/fetus.

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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 12:42PM

I don't agree. They don't perform work for their stillborn babies who actually were actual babies. If you were born and raised getting your oxygen from another source than the air we breath you aren't considered worthy for their temple work.

Seems that LDS could care less about abortions. They only prohibit them based more upon public opinion than their theology. Thus they are a religion of policies and procedures and pretend authority and not doctrine.

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Posted by: messygoop ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 02:14PM


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Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: December 05, 2019 03:37PM

Yes, and could you imagine a Mormon woman trying to explain why she chose not to die and possibly have given birth to a person needing around the clock care and severe mental disabilities? Not going to happen.

Mormons put in the circumstance to get priesthood approval for abortions better have rape or incest as a reason.

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