“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or a hostile universe.”
Albert Einstein

Even animals struggle for survival

While Einstein was a very smart man, this is a false dichotomy. The universe could simply be indifferent, neither friendly nor hostile.

It also presupposes that there is intention or some intelligence in the universe as a whole. There is no proof that either exists, which backs up the idea that the universe is as hostile or friendly as a box of rocks, which is to say, neither.

Universe does not have intent or emotions.

A supremely indifferent universe--like God but without the expectations to dash.

If you would by happenstance meet my MIL, let's say in a field where she is grazing, you would immediately surmise that the universe is extremely hostile.

You made me snork my beverage out my nose with that one. Thank you, I needed the laugh very much today.

I think the universe is hostile or friendly based upon the conscious beings one encounters along the way. The structure of the universe is inert and non-conscious and we have evolved to fit comfortably into our land based, primate niche breathing our nitrox atmosphere and being molded by other evolutionary shaping pressures. There are plenty of hostile environments around, but only biologically hostile, not consciously so.

The people here (or advanced alien sentients, if we ever find them) are what make it feel friendly or hostile. The people here can turn your living room just as hostile a place to exist as being shot into space with no suit, or taking a deep dive with no submarine would. Yet friendly and cooperative people with the right protective gear have sat on the bottom of the sea and walked on the moon and the universe did not object one bit. Makes ya think.

that got a nice chortle out of me

The universe doesn't distinguish between friendly and hostile. It just is what it is. I think he knew that.

Einstein did't say the most important thing we need to figure out is if the universe is friendly or hostile towards us.

He said its an important decision we make....and I think context may be that the decision you make ends up determining the life you live and how you interact with others.....the perception of friendly or hostile surroundings and beings greatly affects that.

Roy G Biv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The universe doesn't distinguish between friendly
> and hostile. It just is what it is. I think he
> knew that.
>
> Einstein did't say the most important thing we
> need to figure out is if the universe is friendly
> or hostile towards us.
>
> He said its an important decision we make....and I
> think context may be that the decision you make
> ends up determining the life you live and how you
> interact with others.....the perception of
> friendly or hostile surroundings and beings
> greatly affects that.

I agree with this.

Beyond universal laws [akin to gravity, etc.], and at least in general (I am not sure of how to parse this out in a genocide, etc. situation), the perspective we, as individuals, choose for ourselves has a huge effect on every part of our lives--and in addition, has ripple effects on the world around us that we, generally, have no real comprehension of (but human interest, or non-human/animal interest, articles and squibs are written about, and videos are produced about, all the time).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2019 03:12PM by Tevai.

https://www.famousscientists.org/einstein-did-not-say-that/

"The twentieth century’s greatest rock star scientist said a lot of memorable things; he’s so venerated that when people want to make a point, they call on Einstein for backup. If they can’t find an apt quote they make one up; or they use someone else’s words and claim Einstein said it. So here are some things Einstein never actually said, but people have claimed he said. You’ll find these quotes crop up repeatedly in internet forums, in social media, in self-help gurus’ advice, etc."

See the 6th entry under “Philosophy and General.”

This is why references are so important! This quote makes no sense, and it is immediately obvious that Einstein did not say it; or if he did, the omitted context was crucial to understanding his intent.

This is a very important point.

I would add that even if Einstein said something, that does not imply that it is correct. He understood a lot of things extremely well: that does not make him an expert in fields in which he had much more limited competence.

Henry Bemis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> https://www.famousscientists.org/einstein-did-not-
> say-that/
>
> "The twentieth century’s greatest rock star
> scientist said a lot of memorable things; he’s
> so venerated that when people want to make a
> point, they call on Einstein for backup. If they
> can’t find an apt quote they make one up; or
> they use someone else’s words and claim Einstein
> said it. So here are some things Einstein never
> actually said, but people have claimed he said.
> You’ll find these quotes crop up repeatedly in
> internet forums, in social media, in self-help
> gurus’ advice, etc."
>
> See the 6th entry under “Philosophy and
> General.”
>
> This is why references are so important! This
> quote makes no sense, and it is immediately
> obvious that Einstein did not say it; or if he
> did, the omitted context was crucial to
> understanding his intent.

Yeah that or Psychology Today, which has a really interesting take on the psychological benefits of deciding the universe is friendly or life sustaining and on balance, tends towards matter in lieu of anti matter or we wouldnt matter or even exist.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/beyond-the-doubt/201601/is-the-universe-friendly-you-decide

What concerns me whether humans are friendly or hostile.

Why the attempt to label something as infinite as the universe friendly or hostile? The blanket labeling does not work for me. I suspect Einstein was using that phrase in a particular context he had in mind and is not the sort of thing to be considered out of context and painted with a broad brush rendering his idea useless.

Take your surroundings as they come and use your best navigational skills--labeling optional. Works in my little universe.

This universe, this life, these people have been benevolent to me, with rare exception.

Friendly.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2019 05:39PM by kathleen.

Mormonism alone could make this world very friendly for a lot of suffering people. I'd happily give ten percent if Mormonism were out fixing cleft lips and alleviating hunger.

It's not the universe, it's greedy earthlings that make the universe nightmarish for some.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2019 05:52PM by kathleen.

Is this one of those "glass half empty or full" questions?

Or, is this just another quote from an authority figure that Kori happened upon?

I think both.

The universe is engaged in creation and destruction simultaneously. We are rabbits loving on a volcanic island. The same processes that build more land also destroy it.

One thing is certain. If you lack inner strength or are weakened from within then you will be destroyed more quickly.

My thinking is that maybe it's all about creation and diversity. That there's a driving need for new creations and new experiences.

Okay, and then I really go off from there. And it's just musings, not a firm belief. But I'm thinking maybe we are all just extensions of a single entity that hungers for diverse experiences, feelings, sensations. Like endless nerve endings all sending in sensations to the whole.

If nothing else, I enjoy feeling FREE to explore different possibilities. That it's okaaaayyyyy.

SEE Alien?

sd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SEE Alien?

Yes. Like Neil deGrasse Tyson says,"If there is life elsewhere in the universe it is either so much more advanced from us we are unrecognizable as life, or so far less evolved from us that we don't recognize it as life. The chances of extra terrestrial life being exactly as evolved as life on Earth are next to infinite."

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sd Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SEE Alien?
>
> Yes. Like Neil deGrasse Tyson says,"If there is
> life elsewhere in the universe it is either so
> much more advanced from us we are unrecognizable
> as life, or so far less evolved from us that we
> don't recognize it as life. The chances of extra
> terrestrial life being exactly as evolved as life
> on Earth are next to infinite."

What's your source for this quote? Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2019 01:17PM by lurking in.

Best I can figure is, the universe has existed for billions of years and is larger than we can imagine. Why would it care about the fate of some primates with pattern baldness?

So, "indifferent universe" is my answer.

ookami Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Best I can figure is, the universe has existed for
> billions of years and is larger than we can
> imagine. Why would it care about the fate of some
> primates with pattern baldness?
>
> So, "indifferent universe" is my answer.

Since the universe tends toward increasing entropy rather than order, according to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, how on Earth did DNA evolve over billions of years to create us?
An ice cube will always melt into a puddle, but a puddle will never spontaneously freeze into an ice cube.

You don't understand the principle of entropy. Disorder increases universally but not necessarily locally.

Drop a ball from a great height and it will bounce upward despite the law of gravity. Freeze your ice water and its molecules will become more organized. In both cases the rules of nature produce converse outcomes locally while disorder increases overall.

The evolution of DNA and life generally does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

When I lived in NYC, I met a Jewish woman who had been imprisoned in a Nazi concentration camp. She had built a very nice life for herself afterward. She had seen both the worst and best of what our world has to offer. Maybe those are the people who have some wisdom to offer, the people who have truly seen it all and who wring out happiness where they are able.

A lot of people are so ego-centric that they believe that the universe was organized just for humans. Not. It was there long before we were. It is we who adapted to it, not the other way around.

I think Mormons believe God created the universe just for them. I was taught in seminary and SS that America, and its Constitution and Bill of Rights with freedom of religion, was organized specifically to pave the way for JS to restore the Gospel here. Mormonism would not have flourished in any other country at the time.

We are all made of the same "star stuff", and we will not turn inward to become hostile against ourselves...or will we?

I believe that adaptations (proven by science) made humans friendly to the universe; otherwise, we would not be here.

And what if the universe is a helicopter, able to move in as many directions as there are directions away from a single point in space?



I gotz ta know!

elderolddog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And what if the universe is a helicopter, able to
> move in as many directions as there are directions
> away from a single point in space?
>
>
>
> I gotz ta know!

The Earth rotates counter clockwise 1,000 mph while it orbits the sun, counterclockwise, while the moon orbits the Earth 2,000 mph, counterclockwise, while the sun orbits the center of the galaxy (Sag A*) over half a million mph, clockwise, while our galaxy (and all the galaxies in our galactic neighborhood, Laneakea) converge on the Great Attractor at over 14 million mph.
So not only is it possible, its reality.

The universe is a vast multi-dimensional donut...hmm, donuts.

Donuts are life.

Going to Neil deGrasse Tyson again: "Every account of a higher power that I've seen described, of all religions that I've seen, include many statements with regard to the benevolence of that power. When I look at the universe and all the ways the universe wants to kill us, I find it hard to reconcile that with statements of beneficence."

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Going to Neil deGrasse Tyson again: "Every
> account of a higher power that I've seen
> described, of all religions that I've seen,
> include many statements with regard to the
> benevolence of that power. When I look at the
> universe and all the ways the universe wants to
> kill us, I find it hard to reconcile that with
> statements of beneficence."

The fact we are alive, despite all the ways the universe wants to kill us, should be all the evidence we need that the universe is, on balance, benevolent, and has been over the past billion or so years of the existence of continuous life on Earth, that we know of.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2019 11:55PM by schrodingerscat.

So you only credit Tyson when his views align with yours?

Then why cite him in the first place? You are getting your ideas from yourself, not from him or Einstein.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So you only credit Tyson when his views align with
> yours?
>
> Then why cite him in the first place? You are
> getting your ideas from yourself, not from him or
> Einstein.

I agree with him when he is right and disagree with him when he is wrong. Even Einstein wasn't right 100% of the time, like when he said,"God does not play dice with the universe." In reference to Quantum Weirdness, which he rejected on that basis, because he couldn't reconcile it with Newtonian physics. To his credit, neither could anybody else, but that doesn't mean quantum physics isn't real. It is. God (aka God Particle - minus the particle, since it is a universal field) does play dice with the universe all the time, but the dice are loaded in favor of matter instead of anti-matter, otherwise we wouldn't exist and nothing would matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2019 09:09AM by schrodingerscat.

Follow the prophets of science. They know the way, except when they don't.

If you follow them only when they are right, and you are the arbiter of what is right, then you are really only following yourself.

You are the expert. They are irrelevant. Now we can dispense with their statements and you can just express your sentiments directly.

That is as is should be. Just tell us what you think without the embellishment of people on posters.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you follow them only when they are right, and
> you are the arbiter of what is right, then you are
> really only following yourself.
>
> You are the expert. They are irrelevant. Now we
> can dispense with their statements and you can
> just express your sentiments directly.
>
> That is as is should be. Just tell us what you
> think without the embellishment of people on
> posters.
I don't "follow" anybody. I follow logic. I agree with Tyson 99.9% of the time, but if we define "benevolent" as, life sustaining, then a universe that has sustained life continuously for over a billion years meets the definition of benevolent. If it were hostile towards life we wouldn't exist and neither would any life form.

> if we define
> "benevolent" as, life sustaining, then a universe
> that has sustained life continuously for over a
> billion years meets the definition of benevolent.

By that standard, vaccines are benevolent towards viruses; anti-biotics benevolent towards bacteria; and Hitler towards Jews. Those things are in fact virulently (intentional) hostile to life. The fact that viruses, bacteria, and Jews survive the malevolence of these various poisons is testament to nothing more than the limits of their potency.


-----------------------
> If it were hostile towards life we wouldn't exist
> and neither would any life form.

You ignore two possibilities. First, perhaps the universe is hostile to life but not capable of destroying it everywhere. Second, maybe the universe simply does not care about life one way or the other.

You cannot disprove either of those propositions, so it is unreasonable to assert a conclusion.

Our matter and energy belonged to other animals, people, veggies before us and will belong to something else after us. So I don't see our existence as a benevolent gift but just part of an ever-morphing diverse flow of energy and matter.

errrr, something like that.

Universe ? Hell, I live in a hostile CITY.

Absolutely!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2019 06:30PM by thedesertrat1.

I believe the children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside and give them a sense of pride.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2019 11:30AM by Elder Berry.

This morning had an important discovery --

Universe is definitely hostile before that first cup of coffee

I believe the coffee is our future. Drink them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the stimulation they possess inside you and eat a donut on the side.

Hostile every changing

Is this why the sun gives us cancer ?

No. Cancer is assured if you live long enough.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this why the sun gives us cancer ?

The sun gives energy for life too. Yes it can give us skin cancer, if we we don't use sunscreen, but we've got to die of something to make room for the next generation.

Dave the Atheist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is this why the sun gives us cancer?


I used to think about that a lot when I was first questioning my belief in God. I thought, "So, He created these beings and put them on a hostile planet with tornadoes and volcanoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, pestilence, disease and extremes of temperatures. We can't live without the Sun and yet the Sun can also kill us. He gave us a hole where we can both eat and breathe out of it, so then we can end up choking on our own food. What's up with that?"

It no longer made any sense to me.

The brain has to parallel process so much that it didn't want to mess with parallel processing two holes. Multithreading those holes was much easier.

Greyfort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dave the Atheist Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Is this why the sun gives us cancer?
>
>
> I used to think about that a lot when I was first
> questioning my belief in God. I thought, "So, He
> created these beings and put them on a hostile
> planet with tornadoes and volcanoes, hurricanes,
> earthquakes, pestilence, disease and extremes of
> temperatures. We can't live without the Sun and
> yet the Sun can also kill us. He gave us a hole
> where we can both eat and breathe out of it, so
> then we can end up choking on our own food.
> What's up with that?"
>
> It no longer made any sense to me.

It doesn't make sense to you that Nature gave you one hole to breath out of and eat food with, like nearly every other animal on Earth?
It doesn't make sense to you that a nuclear fusion reactor in the sky could cause cancer and provide heat and light?

On balance, the benefits outweigh the costs, otherwise we wouldn't exist and neither would any life form.

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It doesn't make sense to you that Nature gave you
> one hole to breath out of and eat food with, like
> nearly every other animal on Earth?


We could be more like whales or dolphins, using our mouth for eating and our blowhole, or some such equivalent, for breathing.

No, I think the universe is casual about us.

Casually indifferent. IT is only hostile if you demand its attention to yourself.

But definitely dangerous...

The fact that we exist at all in this universe makes us think we are special. I think the anthropic principle is at play here.

Is the universe a living organism. I think so.

The universe spent billions of years using the rawest of goods to hone a planet revolving around a star at just the right speed and rotation and distance and build it an atmosphere where a few molecules could grow into some dazzling creatures, but unfortunately some went rogue and added an unrestrained selfishness to the equation and are devouring all that is good like mealy bugs on a flowering lemon tree.

No need to drown an entire planet this time though. They will do themselves in all by themselves---hopefully before they do in all the rest of the beautiful life that deserved better.

Humans. Looking out for No. 1 since time began.