I'm sure there will be many attempts to spin these events. The church's newsroom appears to be maintaining radio silence, but the Lord's Newspaper has started the dialogue. Coming in the form of an op ed, it can later be disavowed if necessary. Sort of a trial balloon.

With that, I submit for your reading enjoyment. . .

https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2019/12/17/21026103/the-washington-post-mormon-church-whistleblower-says-billions-thank-goodness

In short, the church should be lauded for modeling behavior that we all should emulate!

The last sentence.

"Although some will call this most recent round of headlines about church finances “news,” the wisdom remains as old as Egypt."

Would they be reforming Egyptian wisdom? What a reference. The Book of Abraham is obviously a scam as well as the "written word" language of the Book of Mormon.

That wisdom of Egypt is one of Pharaohs using slaves...

(1) A high-level bureaucrat who had inside information concerning a future disaster (or a plan to engineer a future disaster) conspired with Pharaoh to exploit the future crisis as a means of expanding, centralizing and consolidating and further concentrating political power in the hands of Pharaoh (and his right-hand man, Joseph) by monopolizing all supplies of food in the land.

(2) Acting on Joseph's plan, all food was forcefully confiscated from everywhere throughout the land.

(3) When the inevitable "famine" hit, the entire population was entirely dependent on rations of food from Pharaoh (yes, the same food, seed grain, etc. that was formerly in their own hands, until confiscated by Pharaoh). Once the entire population was forced to come begging on bended knee to Pharoah for basic sustenance, the subjugation of the entire population was complete. Pharaoh and Joseph were masters of their world. The food that they stole from the population then became a means of forcing the population to bargain with the devils as though their lives depended on it. "What will you do for Pharaoh in exchange for this weekly ration that is all that stands in the way of death from hunger for your entire family? A lifetime of involuntary servitude? Sounds about right. We have a deal."

Genesis 41: 48 -- And he gathered up ALL THE FOOD of the seven years which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities; the food of the field, which was round about every city, laid he up in the same.

Genesis 41: 49 -- And Joseph laid up corn as the sand of the sea, very much, until they left off numbering; for it was without number.

This was not Joseph's grain, seed crops, "corn" or food. This was food taken by force. What happens when you confiscate ALL THE FOOD (including seed for future crops)? Maybe...famine!

This is the opposite of self-reliance.

What the Church is doing in confiscating (by fraud rather than force) the resources of the members is not "self reliance".

It's the opposite.

Self reliance for the corporation whose corporate offices are in the Church Office Building? Perhaps.

But not for the peasants.

Hmmmm....sounds a lot like what Enron tried to do in California's Central Valley with water: pump the water to another aquifer and then sell it back to the farmers.

I wonder if any mormons worked for Enron? :-)

Wow.

Well, how are we supposed to emulate unless someone gives us money for nothing and we get exemptions too? The modeling only goes one way.

Never mind they really don't care about helping the poor or any other legitimate charities that would make a difference. There's nothing to emulate in that.

I skimmed the article and it seemed to take the "double down" approach plus try to provide examples of other organizations that have captured large sums in investments.

What it didn't address is why virtually zero (or zero?) dollars have gone to any charitable expenditure in the last two decades.

Yep.

It's not a good argument, but it wasn't issued by the church so it can be denounced or ignored once the PR department has come up with its strategy. In other words, the author of this article was a mere private in the Lord's Army, ordered to be the first to climb out of his foxhole and run towards the media's barbed wire and machine guns.

2nd Lieutenants tend to have high casualty rates--they're young and inexperienced. Sergeants know to wait until the first wave (at least) is under way. This was especially true in the Great War.

I defer to your greater experience in the foxholes of the First World War.

"Saving and investing surplus pennies" enriched them $100 billion.
It's a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints freaking miracle!

That particular piece stood out to me, too.

I'm not bothering to click on that--better things to do with my time.

My guess is the reference to Joseph who stored up grain and goods in anticipation of the seven years of drought. You're right, LW--it's suggestive of the Book of Abraham, a pillar made mostly of sand, and not cement.

The better analogy would have been Jesus' parable of the talents, where the servant who parlayed his talents* into many hwas praised and rewarded by the Master upon his return. They could then stretch this into being prepared for His Second Coming.**

None of which constitutes sound theology. But it could be enough to assuage members' misgivings.

*a monetary unit, worth approximately a common laborer's year's wages.

**As stated elsewhere, Lw, I agree wholeheartedly that these assets would be worthless in a Biblical Apocalypse. In such an event, only treasure in Heaven will be fungible. (Whew! how's that for an eschatology!)

> You're right, LW--it's suggestive of
> the Book of Abraham, a pillar made mostly of sand,
> and not cement.

Nor constructed of that even stronger and more impressive material, yeah even a pillar of salt.

Yeah, well Jesus was speaking as a man.

>The better analogy would have been Jesus' parable of the talents...

Precisely what they did in this one:


https://www.deseret.com/utah/2019/12/17/21026182/mormon-lds-church-washington-post-whistleblower-irs-complaint-taxes-ensign-peak

The church responded in a statement released Tuesday morning:

“We take seriously the responsibility to care for the tithes and donations received from members. The vast majority of these funds are used immediately to meet the needs of the growing church including more meetinghouses, temples, education, humanitarian work and missionary efforts throughout the world. Over many years, a portion is methodically safeguarded through wise financial management and the building of a prudent reserve for the future. This is a sound doctrinal and financial principle taught by the Savior in the Parable of the Talents and lived by the church and its members. All church funds exist for no other reason than to support the church’s divinely appointed mission."

I love the part near the end where they say "Yes, the church saves and invests its surplus pennies..."

surplus PENNIES!???

Guess they've got about 10 Trillion surplus pennies now, just in that one entity.

But how cheesy and misleading!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/17/2019 12:52PM by seekyr.

About 27 million tons of pennies. This isn’t “Office Space”.

I subscribe to the Post and a few other publications. To get over 4300 overwhelmingly negative responses in such a short time to this article is unusual. The public images of the Mormon Church is even worse than I thought. It is actually amazing. Nice to have some good news once in awhile.

Yeah, these events are corrosive. Prop 22, Prop 8, the policy against the children of gay people, greater publicity regarding racism, funny underwear, the excommunication of people like Dehlin and Kelly, the FLDS scandals, and now this debacle: there is no way the church can escape the cumulative effect of these scandals.

I totally agree. And as caffiend mentioned "widow's mite" this exchange is informative.


" Mr. Wallace: “It’s expensive to be a Mormon.”
Answer: “Oh, it isn’t expensive. We are living by the law of the Lord—tithing.”
Question: “But 10 percent of your gross goes to the Church, and you have nothing to do with the way the money is spent—an average Mormon, that is.”
Reply: “The average Mormon has a good deal to do with it. He is a member of the Church.”
Mr. Wallace: “But he has nothing to do with how it is going to be spent.”
Response: “If he is a bishop, he has the expenditures of his ward. A lot of that money comes back to the local units. What is that money used for? It is used for Church purposes.”
His question: “What are Church purposes exactly?”
Answer: “Building chapels. About 375 a year. Think about that. New buildings each year to accommodate the needs of the growing membership. It is used for education. We maintain the largest private, church-sponsored university in the world, Brigham Young University, with its 27,000 students on that campus, as well as other campuses. We maintain a tremendous institute of religion program, where we have off-campus connections with [students in] the major universities of America. You will find institutes at UCLA, USC, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, the University of New York, the University of Massachusetts, the Massachusetts Institute of of Technology, and so forth.
“When it comes to the financial circumstances of the Church, we have all funds carefully audited. We have a corps of auditors who are qualified CPAs who are independent from all other agencies of the Church and who report only to the First Presidency of the Church. We try to be very careful. I keep on the credenza behind my desk a widow’s mite that was given me in Jerusalem many years ago as a reminder, a constant reminder, of the sanctity of the funds with which we have to deal. They come from the widow, they are her offering as well as the tithe of the rich man, and they are to be used with care and discretion for the purposes of the Lord. We treat them carefully and safeguard them and try in every way that we can to see that they are used as we feel the Lord would have them used for the upbuilding of His work and the betterment of people.” "
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1996/10/this-thing-was-not-done-in-a-corner?lang=eng

I believe that this Deseret News OpEd is not meant for our eyes.

The powers that be are not so starry-eyed as to consider it possible to realign the manner in which we view the church. They expected exactly the reactions we heathen are gleefully displaying.

But they, the Elders of Zion, know they need to show the Jesus Flag to the soldiers in the field if they want to keep harvesting what they like best, money and obedience.

It's my off-the-cuff guess that these semi-pro defenders of the faith started crafting their defenses within minutes of noticing an attack was taking place. And I assume, because I have so very little to work with, that the two named authors of the DN defense did not get on the phone to one another to begin writing this paean to the justice and mercy of the church.

Rather, I chose to assume that they each wrote a defense and that the editors of the DN decided to EDIT (what a concept!) the two submissions into one article, and then handed out the credits. It's likely each author was a tiny bit upset at having to share the LDS glory.

But it was always the intent of those involved that this defense was for the benefit of the TBMs. There was zero expectation that the Whistle Blower, his brother or those who read with increasing joy their exposition would read the DN editorial and then stop in their tracks, think it over and then put down the swords and lances and retread to the squalor of their opium dens.

This editorial is for the Justin Believers! The few, the proud, the moral and mental pygmies of Zion.

Can I get an amen?

Here's my response. When I was in high school, my father refused to give me lunch money. He gave the Mormon church thousands per year, and when I brought that up, he told me that was the Lord's money he was giving, and the Lord came first. Now I know where my lunch money went while I stole my food to have lunch with my peers. They bought their food--it was 1972, and luch cost 25 cents. I got in trouble for stealing food, but the police let me go. They felt sorry for me. They were kinder to me than Mormon Jesus, who hoarded money and ignored my prayers.

You're goddam right I hate Mormonism. I hate it like I hate my dead father. He had a fucking BYU logo put on his headstone! I'm going to write more about that soon.

My father was a worthless POS too. He had the foresight to be cremated and his ashes scattered – otherwise I would have gone to the cemetery and poured salt over his burial plot so grass would never grow there (what the Romans did to Carthage).

Your dad's grave, forever bare, dirty and lifeless. Think about it. And salt is cheap, just like him.

My father did some things that weren't so great, but food on the table came before tithing. AND even then, he only gave what he "had to" give and nothing more.

By the way, why didn't your father leave all the rest of his money to the church? That just occurred to me.

My very wealthy SP uncle (who was a heathen until age 50 or so and his TBM wife told me he was much more fun before he found religion) kept threatening his children that he was going to leave his money to the church. He actually tried to get his wife declared incompetent before he died so she wouldn't spend his money. I think he thought he could take it with him. She was furious at him at the time he died. Even he couldn't bring himself to leave it to the church, but none of us thought he would anyway.

So, is this an indication that they are not going to refute any of the numbers?

Is this an admission that some actual data about them is now public knowledge and not secret? Usually they try to keep any numbers vague (we don't discuss that, blah, blah).

I will be interested if they try to explain what the whistle blower got wrong.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Is this an admission that some actual data about
> them is now public knowledge and not secret?
> Usually they try to keep any numbers vague (we
> don't discuss that,....

Sacred, not secret.

The article is for the choir. This gives the TBMs like my family the peace they need in continuing to believe at any cost.

1. A non-specific denial of the facts - "the numbers aren't correct" without any specific info provided to refute it.

2. Attack the messenger - "he is a bitter ex-mormon who is just attacking the church"

3. The claim that the church uses all of its funds for operational expenses or humanitarian aid.

4. The claim that the church is always compliant with all laws and regulations.

But eod is correct. All of this is intended for current tithepayers.

Now the PRopoganda arm of the Morgue sounds like tobacco industry lawyers, "Pay no attention to the Surgeon General's warning on the side of ever pack of cigarettes, these things are good for you!!!"

from the article: "...D. Michael Quinn, characterized the sweeping narrative history of church finances as “an enormously faith-promoting story.” He said that if people understood “the larger picture” on church finances they would “see the church is not a profit-making business.”

Not a profit-making business? Pardon me but here is my conclusion: it is dDefinitely a personal-wealth, opulent-lifestyle-creating business for its top employees. All at the expense of the little people in the pews, blindly paying their tithing (+ extra obligations).

I hope the IRS goes after them with a long-lasting, top-to-toe investigation that brings their money matters to the public attention while resulting in fines, forfeitures, seizing of properties, etc. Take away their tax-exempt status in the US!

It's all a money-grabbing sham so a few can live royally.

And hopefully the SEC. Do other investment funds enjoy tax free status? If not, it’s an unfair advantage.

I suppose many TBMs want TSCC to have an unfair advantage since abusing the legal system for the Lord is fine and dandy. Maybe it is legal, but for a charitable organization it sure is distasteful.

I laughed so hard at the lines about being ready to help church members in the next recession.

I remember the profit clearly stating it was not church's role to help its members financially.

The lies about pay your tithing and the church will help you when in need have long been clearly exposed.

I wonder what those members in Africa think about Rusty's sermon on paying tithing makes you wealthy.

“I laughed so hard at the lines about being ready to help church members in the next recession.”

Everyone who was assisted by the LDS church during the 2008 recession please raise your hands.

Nobody? Oh, I see. They’re ready to help in the NEXT recession.

Rusty, while wearing his $3,000 suit, tells malnourished African members living in a single hut, trying to survive off of $1/day, with no medical care or clean drinking water, "don't worry, we are saving that $100 billion for a rainy day."

^^^ that.

And don't they tell penniless members that they are supposed to try to get money from their relatives before appealing to the church? I could be remembering wrong but thought I remembered something to that effect.

I have the hardest time believing they're really just saving the money for Armageddon or whatever, and not doing some other shady thing(s) with it. Because I still say it would be really hard to make your way to the top of the organization and not figure out that there's no god involved.

They're certainly not saving the money to help members or anyone else; they're just betting that most members won't watch Lars Nielsen's videos.

plus a ton of info here:
https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/church-finances-and-a-growing-global-church#question1

Does this mean they're going to provide a full disclosure on all their finances as well?

Paying tithing doesn't make you wealthy nearly as fast as receiving tithing. Important lesson there.

Exactly

Brother Of Jerry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paying tithing doesn't make you wealthy nearly as
> fast as receiving tithing. Important lesson there.


OMG! ROFL!

This is so true.

And what about the money that went to a mall and a life insurance company? That is the spin I am interested in.

I suppose that the church could claim that they thought 'charity' begins at home, you know, that they were using the 'charity' money where it would do, in their humble opinions, the most good.

Once they're told that it was a no-no, I'm sure they will swear a mighty oath to never do it again.

Bingo! Insurance and shopping malls don't immediately jump to millions of minds when they think "Charity."

It was a "prudent reserve for the future" the statement says.

I guess being prudent means saving LOTS of money because they know full well prayers and faith don't accomplish much like money can.
The Lard works by telling them to collect money. Then the miracle of compounding interest happens!

I'm sure it was just being prudent to skip most humanitarian needs in the world for the past 22 years.

Have you ever wondered what would happen if a full time missionary fails to make his/her mandatory support payment to the church?

Well I went through it back in the 1990s. Not only was it embarrassing, but the church was greedy and merciless. My Mom bounced a check. She paid with a closed account. At the time, my Mom was in the middle of trying to sell inherited property as the result of my late Grandmother's passing. I was contacted by the mission office that my monthly payment not only had been missed, but the church was taking action for theft of service due to insufficient funds. I was given permission to call home and even my ward's bishop if necessary.

My Mom apologized for the mix up, but offered no remedy. "I'm really tight this month. Can someone in your area help you out Messy?"

-No. There's nobody to help me. I can't beg members to pay my bill. Can I call Bishop Baylor to see if the ward can find a donor?

Don't you dare call the Bishop. I'm sorry Messy, but you will have to figure it out yourself. I suggest you pray and fast over it. And that was my Mom's way of handling it.

To make a longer story a bit shorter, the senior missionary serving as mission financial officer took pity upon me and explained that I would be loaned 50 dollars to make through the month. I was used to stretching the meager 113 dollars per month (stateside mission). Part of the stipulation was that the loaned 50 would be paid back the following month. I would be short 50 dollars the following month.

Unknown to me until I returned home, was that the stake clerk and high council delegation visited my family to work out a payment for the month that was missed.

One last thing, I came home one month early. The church made it clear that it was expected that a two year mission was contracted. My Mom made another payment.

Just think how the church makes money for every missionary who serves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2019 09:43AM by messygoop.

What?! It's like you had a service contract. Isn't the money used for the support of the missionary, supposedly? So the church takes all the overage ($500 a month to support missionaries in the Philippines and South America? In the 80s and 90s it was $50 or less for missionaries called there. I know that Japan and Europe are far more expensive to support, but...60K missionaries times $500/month = ?)

Suspicious.

I started thinking about all the extras that you were supposed to purchase during my mission. None of these were mentioned in my original missionary call papers. One suggested that a missionary would require the purchase of a bicycle ~ $200 (in the mission field).

-Bicycles

I went to the local bicycle shop (rip-off central to missionaries that wanted free bike repairs) to buy one for 350. For another 50 for a headlight/tail-light package, the shop threw in a helmet.

Later all incoming missionaries were required to buy the "missionary bike package" for $600. An extra 200 for a similar bike with extras.

-Planners

The mission went gung-ho with leather planners. We were supposed to buy the Franklin Covey one. They had a monthly installment plan to finance one if you couldn't cough up a 100 bill to purchase it at once.

Some sisters went to stationery store and bought a cheaper version. The MP humiliated them by demonstrating how cheaply they were made. He opened them up and swung it around until the pages tore. Then he intentionally broke the binding to show that they weren't durable.

Those of us that carried the church supplied "blue planner" sheet suffered our own fate. The MP would call us up and present our contacts. He would then drop it into a pitcher of water to cause the ink to run. Yes, he was that type of an asshole.

-Backpack

This happened the last few months, the greenie missionaries were arriving with the "official" missionary backpack. The MP was always obsessed with conformity so only those that had 3 or less months to serve were excused from purchasing one. The rest were supposed to sign up to get their exclusive missionary designed backpack.

Wow! I had NO idea! Even demanding payment for the month not served. Geeeez. I guess if the widow doesn't pay that mite, they'll come after her for it.

Liars Liars pants on fires.... hanging from the telephole pole .

hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahaha I love it when the gosple

gangsters show thier true selves and we can see it with our

earthly eyes.

Ghawd I'm glad I'm out.

this pool of capital is being held as a kind of disaster insurance that will be distributed to the members of the church in the event of some kind of general emergency or crisis.

But the church generally does not use its funds to rescue families or individuals in crisis now, unless they're well-connected with the Mormon royalty. Why would they do any different in a broader, deeper crisis in the future? You know who...you just HAVE to know who will get first priority in any big future crisis. It will be the same families who are already on the sweet side of the Church balance sheet. It will be the Hinckleys, the Nelsons, the Oaks, the Eyrings, the Bednars, et al...and their siblings and cousins and in-laws and BFFs...then the lackeys and sycophants who attend to them.

The commoners, the muggles, the ordinaries....well...they'll just be admonished to keep tightening their belts and do more to "build up the kingdom". And many of those gullible muggles, like Boxer of Animal Farm, will believe that indeed they just need to work harder and sacrifice more, while the Mormon royalty is already making deals to send their carcasses to the glue factory after their demise.

As LW and I have both pointed out, it's the height of theological absurdity to think that fiscal holdings will serve them in a Biblical apocalypse. Nothing will save their asssssssssets. Nothing!

is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

As I mentioned elsewhere, if the bosses of EPA actually told their employees that they were hoarding those funds to be used in the event of Armageddon or the Second Coming, they must have struggled to keep a straight face the whole time...and then started giggling hysterically once the employees were out of hearing.

I don't think any Mormon (at least from my generation) would think that stocks and bonds would have any meaning during either Armageddon or the Second Coming.

If the majority of active Mormons today are inclined to buy into that explanation for the hoarding, the average IQ of Mormondumb must have dropped 2 or 3 standard deviations during the past couple of decades.

But maybe Armageddon has been hyped up too much. Maybe the prophets of old saw a vision of a scuffle in a WalMart parking lot and misinterpreted what they saw.

Or maybe the nature of the Second Coming has been grossly misunderstood. Maybe it's just Jesus coming back as the ultimate trust-fund brat. "Hey Oaks! Hands off my stash! ....But thanks for keeping an eye on things."

I'm not entirely off-the-wall, here, because I write from personal experience:

Has anyone questioned where all that money actually IS? It isn't "pennies" in a vault, somewhere. Only cartoon characters hoard money like that. It's being used/spent--we all know that. It is gathering interest, keeping other Mormon businesses afloat (we already know about Beneficial life), etc. But, how do we know that gobs of it hasn't already been frivolously squandered for summer homes, expensive First Class trips, $2,000 suits, and Mormon land-grabs all over the world. I doubt if very much of this is liquid assets. Where the Hell did it all go? What a bunch of bull about Mormons' special CPA's who report only to The Prophet, and bla-bla. I doubt that Nelson has any kind of hands-on control over the finances. Well, except to spend some of it.

Even if the Mormons discover that the money has not been paid out to charities or the needy (Oh, the lives that $100 billion could save!); obviously, Mormons aren't curious enough to ever ask, "Where's the money?"

how much the money managers are earning in fees. If I had to hazard a guess, they're probably enjoying a standard of living that the typical tithepayer can only dream about. Managing God's money probably pays quite well. Selfless monks need not apply.

Well, well, I bet they look extremely respectable when they come to church dressed in their designer Sunday best. Probably earns them the top power positions in their wards too.

Mother Who Knows Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not entirely off-the-wall, here, because I
> write from personal experience:

Nothing off-the-wall in your post at all. Can you elucidate on your personal experience, and how relevant it is to the topic?
>
> But, how do we know that
> gobs of it hasn't already been frivolously
> squandered for summer homes, expensive First Class
> trips, $2,000 suits, and Mormon land-grabs all
> over the world.

I think of the aristocrats' country dashas following the Russian Revolution. The Bolsheviks "liberated" them, and they became the pastoral retreats of the upper echelons of the Soviet regime. Technically, these estates were owned by "the people," but in reality they were they private realms of the nomenklatura, and their families. They were never opened up to the commoners.

Could the "Church" own such properties, providing them as (ahem) necessary, quiet sanctuaries for apostles & 70s?

Yes. I think we can quibble quite well that $100 billion is "excessive." But within the LDS Church nobody has any say over wether the reserves are excessive because:

1. The political structure of the church doesn't allow members to change the policy even if they don't like it.

2. Until this whistleblower came forward most probably didn't even know Ensign Peak existed let alone was sitting on a $100 billion asset pile.

The more I think about this story, what really strikes me is whether the leadership of LDS, Inc. has a big enough vision to manage that kind of money effectively. As others have noted there is no mention that none of this money was being spent on charitable or even religious purposes.

They have gotten very good at pinching pennies, but are otherwise lost.

If you just think about what the biggest expenses are for most churches at the local level, how this pile was built up becomes pretty clear. Most churches biggest expenses at the local level are staff and buildings. Now think about the typical ward in the Mormon Corridor. Most of them share building space with one, two, or sometimes three other wards. There is no paid staff for the local congregations. And yet, a big portion of the ward is paying 10%--at least on their net income, but some give more. After all 10% is required for a temple recommend. What's more people pay to send themselves or their children on missions, and the temples are largely staffed by volunteers.

There's another annoying thing about this op-ed, which is a real pet peeve of mine with Mormons as someone with a background in public affairs. They compare the LDS Church to government. But the LDS Church doesn't take on a fraction of the missions of government. What does the LDS Church do to ensure public safety? Does the LDS Church maintain transit networks and roads? Regulate airline safety? How about research cancer? Does it explore space? Does it work to keep air and water clean? Does it offer K-12 education with no fees to parents? Does it come rescue you when you are injured? Does it regulate workplace safety? I could go on.

It is really easy to run a huge surplus when you take in a large portion of your members' income, but offer only limited services. Think about Gordon Hinckley's remarks about not wanting to expand the LDS Church university system because they are so expensive.

What never ceases to amaze me is how the same set of facts can conjure up so many different explanations. Its not fraud its provident living. Amazing