Recovery Board  : RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum. 
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2020 07:24PM

https://youtu.be/V9KnrVlpqoM

According to String theory, nothing really happens in the physical world. The Physical world is just a manifestation of the our consciousness.
It seems that ancient wise men have always known this.
That consciousness controls everything.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 22, 2020 08:11PM

You could say that everything is consciousness. God would be the underlying interconnection of everything. All living things, including us, are God in form. So in a way, King Benjamin’s address is right. Must have been Rigdon.

Consciousness travels backward in time as well as forward. That’s the weird part. In the quantum world, time does not exist. According to Wheeler and DeWitt. The reason why spiritual practices work is that a part of us lives in this eternal timeless world.

This raises a lot of questions about the nature of free will. Without time, everything that could happen has already happened so our choices could be illusory. The experience feels real, which I think is the point. The world’s religions have covered a lot of metaphysical ground for the limitations that humans have.

But I think religions are primarily political animals, which is why they are in decline. The world is moving away from that. Meanwhile, TSCC becomes more dictatorial and controlling. Which is fine. They want dumb followers. Smart people will continue their spiritual journeys elsewhere.

That the foundations of Quantum Mechanics can legitimately be discussed is a sea change. Maybe that will replace religion.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 22, 2020 10:43PM

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You could say that everything is consciousness.
> God would be the underlying interconnection of
> everything. All living things, including us, are
> God in form. So in a way, King Benjamin’s
> address is right. Must have been Rigdon.
>
> Consciousness travels backward in time as well as
> forward. That’s the weird part. In the quantum
> world, time does not exist. According to Wheeler
> and DeWitt. The reason why spiritual practices
> work is that a part of us lives in this eternal
> timeless world.
>
> This raises a lot of questions about the nature of
> free will. Without time, everything that could
> happen has already happened so our choices could
> be illusory. The experience feels real, which I
> think is the point. The world’s religions have
> covered a lot of metaphysical ground for the
> limitations that humans have.
>
> But I think religions are primarily political
> animals, which is why they are in decline. The
> world is moving away from that. Meanwhile, TSCC
> becomes more dictatorial and controlling. Which is
> fine. They want dumb followers. Smart people will
> continue their spiritual journeys elsewhere.
>
> That the foundations of Quantum Mechanics can
> legitimately be discussed is a sea change. Maybe
> that will replace religion.

Most people laugh and think you're crazy when you bring up quantum physics.

Unless you're a String Theorist, then they really think you're crazy, talking about cosmic music resonating on strings, vibrating through the 0 different dimensions of hyperspace, only 3 of when we can experience, maybe 4 if you count time.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 22, 2020 10:55PM

If nobody thinks you’re crazy, you’re doing something wrong.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Warrior71783 ( )
Date: February 26, 2020 06:38PM

Crazy is a hard label to get rid of.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: February 22, 2020 08:14PM

My thoughts are reality. Your thoughts are not.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: fossilman ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 09:50AM

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: daycart ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 12:32PM

Descartes walked into a bar.

The bartender asked him if he'd like a beer.

"I think not," said Descartes, who promptly disappeared in a puff of smoke.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 09:10AM

"According to String theory, nothing really happens in the physical world. The Physical world is just a manifestation of the our consciousness."

COMMENT: This is a gross misrepresentation of String Theory. String Theory is an attempt to reconcile Quantum Mechanics with General Relativity. In essence, it states that the physical world is built up from ultimate "particles" called superstrings, the properties of which (vibrations) manifest themselves in more traditional particles, e.g. electrons and quarks. String Theory is an alternative to Quantum Field Theory. (See Smolin, Three Roads to Quantum Gravity for a relatively accessible account of these issues)

The idea that the physical world is just a manifestation of consciousness is a speculative "new-age" view of quantum mechanics, which is far removed from mainstream physics. Although it is true that the Copenhagen interpretation of QM included a role for consciousness in quantum theory, few physicists (and probably no String Theorists) would subscribe to the view that consciousness equates with the superstrings of String Theory.

Anyway, you are getting way ahead of your homework here, which seems to be typical of your posts.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: schrodingerscat ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 03:04PM

I should have run it by the board know it all before posting anything I have not written a PhD Dissertation on.
What have you published on the subject?
Send me the link to your scholarly peer reviewed research.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 01:34PM

The Gods must be PhDs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 09:38AM

"According to String theory"

==That was about Quantum theory, not String Theory.

There is a problem with the Schrodinger hypothetical experiment. It has never been demonstrated that the cat is in a dead and alive state.
I am not aware of any experiment that has demonstrated that that idea is actually how nature behaves.
What Schrodinger is talking about is the equations themselves. The equations of Quantum Physics gives probabilities. They never tell us the exact state of the system.

Let me explain it to you this way. Forget the Schrodinger equations for a moment.
Let's say I have a 2 sided coin.
I flip it.
What are the chances that I will get heads? 50%
Although that number will not tell us if I will get heads if I flip a coin right now, it tells me what the overall behavior of the system is.
Does the coin exist in both the head and tail states as long as I don't observe it? That has never been demonstrated.

Yes, I have heard that some of the early pioneers of QM theory were into the hindu or budhism thing and they proposed this idea that consciousness is responsible for determining which state the system goes into. They have never gone beyond that as far as I know.

I will post this on that youtube video as well.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 03:32PM


Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 04:22PM

Let's look at some outreach fluff pop on fringe speculation and pretend we're deep.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dogbloggernli ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 04:23PM

Sorry, meant for the scat beast.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: February 29, 2020 09:08PM

"There’s this experiment: http://deanradin.com/evidence/Radin2012doubleslit.pdf";

==That research is probably littered with bias and bad data.
You can read
https://archive.org/stream/arxiv-1207.0804/1207.0804_djvu.txt
which criticizes that research.

TEXT EXTRACTED
What I'm here stressing is that it is highly improbable, considering what we today know about quantum mechanics (and that the founding fathers didn't know) , that the theory would ever need the intervention of the consciousness to explain the measurement process.


TEXT EXTRACTED
Let me start by recalling the reason why, in the first place, physicists started discussing about consciousness in.............



TEXT EXTRACTED
Also, as it was recently lucidly pointed out by Yu and Nikolic [4] , if the role of the consciousness would be...............

TEXT EXTRACTED
However, the fact that quantum theory doesn't indicate where to put the separation between the observed system and the observer system (the missing Heisenberg's cut) and, more importantly, how to separate them, should lead at least to a certain suspicion regarding its alleged completeness.


TEXT EXTRACTED
In this more ample conceptual and mathematical framework, known as the Geneva-Brussel operational approach [7H2|, the conundrum of the quantum measurement has found a very clear and convincing solution, in the sense that the mysterious origin of quantum probabilities has been fully clarified and the quantum observer effect explained as a "down to earth" instrument effect.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 29, 2020 11:16PM

So the “impossible according to theory” argument trumps observational data? That harkens back to Copernicus and his critics who refused to look through his telescope, because what would be the point?

What would be the point of reading anti-Mormon material? It might damage your testimony and subject you to almost certain temptation.

My problem with metaphysical skepticism is that it’s the “in thing”. Atheist evangelicals are popular because of their appeal. They don’t have to reconcile data because they get their methods from religion. The problem with the analysis is that they started with the foregone conclusion (or so they said) that the effect couldn’t be real, so they found an interpretation to fit their hypothesis. Just like a Mormon apologist.

What is more “real”, the physical or the metaphysical? Isn’t that what the OP was getting at? You may consider the metaphysical to be imaginary or subjective, like beauty or love. Are those real? What if we are our imagination? When we die, we encounter what we expect according to NDE survivors. Our lives could be a reel of Groundhog Day on film. Every frame is there all rolled up. Playing the frames in sequence through time produces an experience. Who is the producer of the film?

I was raised in a science family. I didn’t believe in woo at all. But I married a woo person who changed my mind. The woo can slap you in the face only so many times before you have to admit there’s something there. Which was good training for my life as a metaphysician. Who knew that could be a thing? Religion is a form of metaphysics. There are many more. Metaphysics is any technology used to access the divine. Since the divine is within us, and we are within the divine, these technologies work. They are useful, but only if you believe them. Now, are we back to self delusion? Sam Harris’s “mind virus”? If we are the imagination of ourselves then the beliefs have power over us. The deep religious structures of previous centuries were useful and they will give way to something else, but there will be something else.

Physics has already met metaphysics. It’s time to get used to the idea. The physics of belief are real because we are beings of light. It took me a few years to test it, but that’s what I got. Convincing educated people to look at the data is the hardest part, as is always the case with anything new.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2020 12:13AM by babyloncansuckit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: March 01, 2020 06:03PM

"Religion is a form of metaphysics. There are many more. Metaphysics is any technology used to access the divine. Since the divine is within us, and we are within the divine, these technologies work."

==Then why does each religion differ? Shouldn't they all talk about the same god, same angels, same demons, same creation story, same story about what happens to you when you die?
Sure, what they have in common is that they claim that you have a soul but that is something that expect since no one wants to die. The rest of it is filler material.

I'm not sure what technology you are talking about.
I'm just saying that there some bad physicists/chemists/biochemists out there. Even the "pros" make major mistakes and bring their own name down to the dirt.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 01, 2020 10:08PM

All roads lead to God. Religions are the stories of us. They are allegorical and mythological, not historical. It doesn’t matter if no historical Christ actually existed. That the Christ archetype was woven into a tapestry of words is a miracle. You can follow the threads to antiquity in ancient Sumeria, ancient India, ancient Persia. People copy from each other. That’s what writers do. George Lucas didn’t pull “Star Wars” from thin air, he Joseph Smithed it.

Nobody ever had to solve differential equations to make a baby. Yet a newborn baby is a miracle. According to current knowledge, babies shouldn’t be possible. The Human Genome Project only left us more baffled than before. Holding a baby is surreal experience if you’re into science. This little human looking back at you is doing things that defy explanation. Existing, for one.

<Edit: confidential information snipped>

Having said all that, the problem with Mormonism isn’t that it depends on subjective truth. The problem is that it’s so stupid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2020 09:33AM by babyloncansuckit.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Brother Of Jerry ( )
Date: March 01, 2020 10:29PM

Akashic field? According to current knowledge, babies shouldn't be possible?

I want some of what you're smoking. :). BTW, anything that happens is possible.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: March 01, 2020 10:53PM

Yeah, what if NOTHING was ever 'designed' to happen?

What if everything that has happened, does happens or ever will happen was, is and will be a complete surprise to the Universe?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: March 01, 2020 10:57PM

> BTW, anything that happens is possible.

Oh come on now. That's silly.









*On a different note, have you watched what's happened to option prices given the collapse in underlying values? That's where prices diverge from the spot market and time value, measured by theta, due to changes in vega. Greater volatility means greater likelihood of ending in the money and hence greater value.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: March 03, 2020 11:19PM

"All roads lead to God. Religions are the stories of us. They are allegorical and mythological, not historical."

==That's your version of it. Based on my observations, there are hundreds of religions from various cultures and thousands of gods. There is no evidence that there are gods or that there is one god, which I assume is what you believe in.

"It doesn’t matter if no historical Christ actually existed. That the Christ archetype was woven into a tapestry of words is a miracle."

==I think facts do matter. That's not a miracle. Some "prophets" fail and some "prophets" succeed and eventually gets billions of followers. There are billions of followers bc humans reproduce and pass their religion to their children. The children trust their parents and stay in the religion of their parents.


"You can follow the threads to antiquity in ancient Sumeria, ancient India, ancient Persia. People copy from each other. That’s what writers do. George Lucas didn’t pull “Star Wars” from thin air, he Joseph Smithed it."

==I agree. Cultures that live near to each other copy each other . In fact, humans live together but over time, the tribe slips off for various reasons. Each tribe cultural evolves into a different path.

"Nobody ever had to solve differential equations to make a baby. Yet a newborn baby is a miracle. According to current knowledge, babies shouldn’t be possible."

==Huh?
You are confusing a theoretical model of something with reality. Theoretical models are accepted in science bc they work well, however, scientists don't claim that everything is known and solved.

"The Human Genome Project only left us more baffled than before."

==What do you mean?
There have been many genome projects so far. There are protein projects as well.
That's how science is done. It is done step by step.

"Having said all that, the problem with Mormonism isn’t that it depends on subjective truth. The problem is that it’s so stupid."

==All religions are equally silly.
It is no more silly to believe that spiderman exists, wears a silly suit, was bitten by a radioactive spider.
Some people take their religion very seriously. They seriously thing that there is a god and that it is all powerful and that it can create a Spiderman, smurfs, Santa Claus and anything.

Believing in a magical genie (god) makes people believe in anything, no matter how silly.


A for Dean Radin, his research is not accepted and like I said, it is probably riddled with problem:
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Radin
He has been Senior Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), in Petaluma, California, USA. Radin served on dissertation committees at Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, and former President of the Parapsychological Association.[1][2] He is also co-editor-in-chief of the journal Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing.[3]

Radin's ideas and work have been criticized by scientists and philosophers skeptical of paranormal claims.[4][5][6][7] The review of Radin's first book, The Conscious Universe, that appeared in Nature charged that Radin ignored the known hoaxes in the field, made statistical errors and ignored plausible non-paranormal explanations for parapsychological data.[8]

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: March 04, 2020 09:37AM

Hello iceman 9090:

Consider the following comments:

______________________________________________

"Nobody ever had to solve differential equations to make a baby. Yet a newborn baby is a miracle. According to current knowledge, babies shouldn’t be possible."

==Huh?
You are confusing a theoretical model of something with reality. Theoretical models are accepted in science bc they work well, however, scientists don't claim that everything is known and solved.

COMMENT: Yes, this comment (the one you are responding to) is confusing. I assume that the point is that the theoretical models of physics--and their differential equations--are inadequate as explanations for the complexities of life; not only because such complexities are too complicated to formulate such equations, much less solve them, but because there is something about life that transcends science, including molecular biology. (Although the statement "According to current knowledge, babies shouldn’t be possible" is quite a stretch!) In general, I think this is a point well taken. Consider this statement by biologists Addy Pross in his 2012 book, What is Life:

"I am of the view that attempting to seek out life's molecular beginnings *before* we have adequately clarified the physicochemical principles that underlie biological complexification is tantamount to attempting to assemble a watch from its component parts -- springs, cogs, wheels, etc. -- without understanding the principles that govern watch function. Richard Feynman, the iconic Nobel physicist, once said: 'What I cannot create, I do not understand.' This truism might be usefully turned around: What I do not understand, I cannot create."

Clearly, there is something about life--beyond the reductionist of biochemical processes, that remains mysterious.
___________________________________________

"Having said all that, the problem with Mormonism isn’t that it depends on subjective truth. The problem is that it’s so stupid."

==All religions are equally silly.
It is no more silly to believe that spiderman exists, wears a silly suit, was bitten by a radioactive spider.
Some people take their religion very seriously. They seriously thing that there is a god and that it is all powerful and that it can create a Spiderman, smurfs, Santa Claus and anything.

Believing in a magical genie (god) makes people believe in anything, no matter how silly.

COMMENT: Not all religion can be dismissed as "silly." What beliefs (religious or otherwise) might be deemed "rational" as opposed to "silly" covers a wide spectrum, encompassing a vast network of interwoven beliefs within one's worldview. Personally, even though I myself am NOT a believer, I do not find it "silly" for a person to have religious faith, so long as it does not encompass beliefs that are inconsistent, demonstrably false, or wildly speculative in the details. Believing in the bare notion of an ultimate, creative intelligent Being, of some sort, in my view qualifies as rational. But generally speaking, it is all downhill from there. (IMHO)
_________________________________________


A for Dean Radin, his research is not accepted and like I said, it is probably riddled with problem:
Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Radin
He has been Senior Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS), in Petaluma, California, USA. Radin served on dissertation committees at Saybrook Graduate School and Research Center, and former President of the Parapsychological Association.[1][2] He is also co-editor-in-chief of the journal Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing.[3]

Radin's ideas and work have been criticized by scientists and philosophers skeptical of paranormal claims.[4][5][6][7] The review of Radin's first book, The Conscious Universe, that appeared in Nature charged that Radin ignored the known hoaxes in the field, made statistical errors and ignored plausible non-paranormal explanations for parapsychological data.[8]

COMMENT: I have read Radin's books--all of them; along with the criticisms. I have also read a number of other books arguing for and against the reality of psi, and other paranormal phenomena. Here is a quote from Radin's book that I believe is the most accurate assessment of this research that I have read to date:

"The existence of a few basic psi effects is now sufficiently well established to persuade most scientists who study the evidence with a critical eye, and without prejudice, that something interesting is going on. . . That said, it's also important to clarify that there are many other claims associated with psi where the scientific evidence isn't very persuasive, or where the claims could not be verified under scrutiny, or where interpretations of the experimental results are still ambiguous." (Radin, Entangled Minds, page 208)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 09:43AM

There is a problem with the Schrodinger hypothetical experiment. It has never been demonstrated that the cat is in a dead and alive state.

I am not aware of any experiment that has demonstrated that that idea is actually how nature behaves.
What Schrodinger is talking about is the equations themselves. The equations of Quantum Physics gives probabilities. They never tell us the exact state of the system.

COMMENT: The Alain Aspect experiments, and numerous other confirming experiments, have confirmed Bell's theorem, which demonstrates conclusively that that QM *is* how nature behaves at the quantum level.
__________________________________________

Let me explain it to you this way. Forget the Schrodinger equations for a moment.
Let's say I have a 2 sided coin.
I flip it.
What are the chances that I will get heads? 50%
Although that number will not tell us if I will get heads if I flip a coin right now, it tells me what the overall behavior of the system is.
Does the coin exist in both the head and tail states as long as I don't observe it? That has never been demonstrated.

COMMENT: This is a misplaced example. The coin-flip probabilities are classical probabilities, not quantum probabilities. Quantum probabilities are different. In the first place they are tied to the properties of the physical systems themselves, which is not the case with your coins. As such, there is a sense in which their probability states *do* exist "physically" in some sense, and not just mathematically as in your classical coin example.
____________________________________________

Yes, I have heard that some of the early pioneers of QM theory were into the hindu or budhism thing and they proposed this idea that consciousness is responsible for determining which state the system goes into. They have never gone beyond that as far as I know.

COMMENT: That is because consciousness is so elusive. Science first notices effects, and then seeks explanations. The early QM theorists noticed that measurement had the effect of collapsing the wave function, which measurement was triggered by conscious willing. Assuming this is true, just how consciousness might bring about such an effect is as intractable a problem as consciousness itself.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: March 03, 2020 11:20PM

Thanks Henry Bemis.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: February 23, 2020 10:46AM

String theory is the current science grey area where all the woo has moved for support.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 01:35PM

I feel like I'm getting strung along or maybe too strung out.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: March 05, 2020 10:31PM

Elder Berry Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel like I'm getting strung along or maybe too
> strung out.

Could it be: String Cheese Incident?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 05:22PM

"String theory is the current science grey area where all the woo has moved for support."

COMMENT: If what you mean by "woo" are metaphysical speculations unsupported by scientific experiment, then String Theory would be a good place for "woo" to go, since String Theory itself lacks such support. This begs the question: What is the real distinction between scientific metaphysical speculations (String Theory) and paranormal metaphysical "speculations" (like psi)?

Here is the answer. (I thought you would never ask!) Scientific metaphysical speculations (e.g. String Theory and Multiverse QM theories) are based upon mathematical models where *no* connection to physical reality has been demonstrated whatsoever. Martin Gardner, our favorite skeptic, who as you recall hates the paranormal, cynically stated:

"What are superstrings made of? As far as anyone knows they are not made of anything. They are pure mathematical constructs. If superstrings are the end of the line, then everything that exists in our universe, including you and me, is a mathematical construction. As a friend once said, the universe seems to be made of nothing, yet somehow it manages to exist."

Paranormal phenomena, on the other hand, are based upon metaphysical speculations that have been confirmed to some degree by credible human experiences as well as psychological testing. (Read the literature!)

So, in the one case (String Theory) you have a total disconnect from reality, and on the other (the paranormal, or your "woo"), well established experiential and experimental connections. And, remember, String Theory was *the* dominant research program in physics for the past four decades!

Now, if you still insist on your derogatory "woo" distinction, you have a bit of explaining to do. So, let's hear it!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 06:45PM

String theory is disconnected from reality the same way relativity and quantum mechanics were when they were initially proposed. Yet both of those proved accurate generalizations about the cosmos.

Perhaps we should accept that mathematics is in fact NOT disconnected from reality but rather a form thereof, at least when it arises from consideration of physical problems. In fact it is a logic that yields falsifiable predictions, an uncanny number of which are eventually demonstrated.

Physical math is not "metaphysical speculation."

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 09:26AM

"String theory is disconnected from reality the same way relativity and quantum mechanics were when they were initially proposed. Yet both of those proved accurate generalizations about the cosmos."

COMMENT: Not quite. Both relativity and QM started as proposed explanations of experimental facts of physical reality. Simplistically speaking, relativity with the established constancy of the speed of light; and quantum mechanics with the spectrum of black body radiation. The mathematics of these theories, and the related conceptual explanations, were tested in a variety of contexts and shown to have an accurate correspondence with physical reality generally. String theory, on the other hand, is not verifiable in principle, because it involves essences (superstrings) that are by their own definition way beyond scientific discovery and measurement, and it involves multi-dimensions of which there is no evidence, and which are really just mathematically convenient to the theory's internal coherence. SO, there is a huge distinction here.
___________________________________________

Perhaps we should accept that mathematics is in fact NOT disconnected from reality but rather a form thereof, at least when it arises from consideration of physical problems. In fact it is a logic that yields falsifiable predictions, an uncanny number of which are eventually demonstrated.

COMMENT: The problem is that mathematical theories, even beautiful ones, like String Theory, can often be shown to be false when tested against physical reality. Without experiment to confirm the connection, there is no reason to assume that a mathematical theory mirrors physical reality. Notice also that there are numerous theories competing with String Theory that are also mathematically rigorous, but which approach the problem (quantum gravity) from a different direction.

On your last point, we naturally know about the mathematically based predictions that have been verified because the unverified ones get lost in history. So, although logic may be the starting point, there is no guaranty that a particular mathematical, theory-based, prediction will ultimately bring forth some physical confirmation. In short, the connection between mathematics and the physical world is real, but tenuous because there is no *logical* connection between mathematics per se, arguably a mental construct, and physical reality. That is why John Wheeler talked about the "unreasonable* connection between mathematics and the physical world.
__________________________________________

Physical math is not "metaphysical speculation."

COMMENT: The use of mathematics to generate theories that claim to coincide with physical reality, but which have no known connection to physical reality is, by definition, metaphysics. Other than the fact that it is *internally* rigorous, it is no different than other metaphysical speculations. And let me emphasize my main point to dagny: Much of metaphysical speculation outside of science "does* have experiential connection to the physical world, through human experience and psychological testing. Unfortunately, this is not the kind of "connection" that science generally acknowledges.

(See, for example, Dean Radin, Entangled Minds: Extrasensory Experiences in a Quantum Reality.)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 12:29PM

> Both relativity and QM
> started as proposed explanations of experimental
> facts of physical reality.

And String Theory stems from an attempt to understand the implications of relativity and quantum mechanics. The physical world led to the math, which led to insights that must be tested in the future. So the processes are comparable to Einstein's work.


---------------------
> The mathematics of these theories, and
> the related conceptual explanations, were tested
> in a variety of contexts and shown to have an
> accurate correspondence with physical reality
> generally.

You realize, I'm sure, that Einstein did not get the Nobel Prize for relativity. Why? Because years after the formulation of the theories no one had been able to test the hypothesis and its math still seemed speculative. Instead, they gave him the prize for earlier work which other scientists could understand and test.

So you are effectively claiming that relativity was testable when it was devised, which is false. The math was decades ahead of the science.


--------------------
> String theory, on the other hand, is
> not verifiable in principle, because it involves
> essences (superstrings) that are by their own
> definition way beyond scientific discovery and
> measurement, and it involves multi-dimensions of
> which there is no evidence, and which are really
> just mathematically convenient to the theory's
> internal coherence.

It was your logic that denied relativity the Nobel Prize. You therefore can't say that Einstein's work was sufficiently contretized but later iterations of the same process--observation leads to math and hypotheses that will not be capable of test for decades to come--are metaphysical because they cannot now be tested.


---------------------
> SO, there is a huge
> distinction here.

The distinction is in the standards you apply, not the scientific process.


----------------
> COMMENT: The problem is that mathematical
> theories, even beautiful ones, like String Theory,
> can often be shown to be false when tested against
> physical reality. Without experiment to confirm
> the connection, there is no reason to assume that
> a mathematical theory mirrors physical reality.

That is not how it works. In reality, scientists confront problems, use math to make sense of things, and then devise experiments to test the new theories. Sometimes there is a gap of decades between the math and the experimental evaluation.


----------------
> On your last point, we naturally know about the
> mathematically based predictions that have been
> verified because the unverified ones get lost in
> history. So, although logic may be the starting
> point, there is no guaranty that a particular
> mathematical, theory-based, prediction will
> ultimately bring forth some physical confirmation.

I never said it would. What I said was that the math is based in analysis of the physical reality. It is.


--------------------
> In short, the connection between mathematics and
> the physical world is real, but tenuous because
> there is no *logical* connection between
> mathematics per se, arguably a mental construct,
> and physical reality.

This is basically an attack on the scientific process in general. For all scientific theories work the same way: observation, hypothesis, evaluation. You only get the validation after the evaluation. With regard to String Theory you are standing in the gap between articulation of the theory and its eventual experimental evaluation. If you did that to relativity in 1918 you must conclude that relativity was "metaphysical" and bore "no logical connection" to "physical reality."


---------------------
> That is why John Wheeler
> talked about the "unreasonable* connection between
> mathematics and the physical world.

Again, the name dropping. If Wheeler persuaded you that Einstein's best work, or Bohr's, or Hawking's, was "metaphysical" because they produced theories that were not for decades capable of falsification, I'm not sure he deserves much attention.


--------------
> COMMENT: The use of mathematics to generate
> theories that claim to coincide with physical
> reality, but which have no known connection to
> physical reality is, by definition, metaphysics.

Then all science is "metaphysics" because each new hypothesis is by definition a step beyond presently understood science.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Henry Bemis ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 02:29PM

And String Theory stems from an attempt to understand the implications of relativity and quantum mechanics. The physical world led to the math, which led to insights that must be tested in the future. So the processes are comparable to Einstein's work.

COMMENT: Well, O.K. But you can just as well say that any kind of speculative theory originates from an attempt to understand the physical world. What matters is precisely what you say here, whether such theories can "be tested in the future." String theory is untestable, for reasons I stated. Note, that "God theories" might be postulated to explain physical reality too; for example the origin of the universe. But like String Theory they cannot be tested. So in that sense they are on the same footing with the single exception that String Theory is a mathematical theory, while God is a religious "theory." Both are metaphysical in the same sense; they are beyond confirmation by experiment!
_________________________________________

You realize, I'm sure, that Einstein did not get the Nobel Prize for relativity. Why? Because years after the formulation of the theories no one had been able to test the hypothesis and its math still seemed speculative. Instead, they gave him the prize for earlier work which other scientists could understand and test.

COMMENT: Correct. Except there have been Nobel prizes for theories that have turned out wrong.

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/10/nobel_prizes_awarded_for_disproved_discoveries.html
_________________________________________

So you are effectively claiming that relativity was testable when it was devised, which is false. The math was decades ahead of the science.

COMMENT: I made no such claim, effectively or otherwise. However, relativity was confirmed soon after it was presented, not decades. Eddington began the confirmation process in two experiments in 2019 showing the bending of light in a gravitational force, only four years after General Relativity was first published.
_______________________________________________

It was your logic that denied relativity the Nobel Prize. You therefore can't say that Einstein's work was sufficiently contretized but later iterations of the same process--observation leads to math and hypotheses that will not be capable of test for decades to come--are metaphysical because they cannot now be tested.

COMMENT: Nonsense. We are talking about the confirmation of String Theory, not relativity. As noted above, relativity was confirmed four years after it was presented. String Theory has existed at least since the 1980s in various forms, and science still has no idea how to verify it. Here is a quote from Peter Woit's book, Not Even Wrong: The Failure of String Theory and the Search for Unity in Physical Law:

"Near the end of his life, when asked his opinion of an article by a young physicist, he [Wolfgang Pauli] sadly said, "it is not even wrong." The phrase "not even wrong" is a popular one among physicists, and carries two different connotations, both of which Pauli likely had in mind. A theory can be "not even wrong" because it is so incomplete and ill-defined that it can't be used to make firm predictions whose failure would show it to be wrong. This has been the situation of superstring theory from its beginning to the present day.

This sort of "not even wrong" is not necessarily a bad thing. Most new theoretical ideas begin in this state, and it can take quite a bit of work before their implications are well enough understood for researchers to be able to tell whether the idea is right or wrong. But there is a second connotation of "not even wrong" : something worse than a wrong idea, and in this form the phrase often gets used as a generic term of abuse. In the case of superstring theory, the way some physicists are abandoning fundamental scientific principles rather than admit that a theory is wrong is something of this kind: worse than being wrong is to refuse to admit it when one is wrong."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Woit

_______________________________________________

The distinction is in the standards you apply, not the scientific process.

COMMENT: The scientific process can be abused when the standards are not met until you get to the extreme "not even wrong" description, which I equate here with metaphysics.
_______________________________________________

That is not how it works. In reality, scientists confront problems, use math to make sense of things, and then devise experiments to test the new theories. Sometimes there is a gap of decades between the math and the experimental evaluation.

COMMENT: I don't disagree. But the "proof" is always in the pudding (i.e. experimental confirmation) And you are exaggerating the time it takes. In most cases, when viable well-defined theories are put forth, the experimentalists are all over it, sometimes inventing new technology. But, that said, more recently as science has outlived the technology available to confirm its theories, theory often now stands alone, untested. In such cases, theories in isolation, as supported only by the mathematics of the theory itself, often incomplete, are metaphysical; i.e. beyond physical confirmation.
_______________________________________

> In short, the connection between mathematics and
> the physical world is real, but tenuous because
> there is no *logical* connection between
> mathematics per se, arguably a mental construct,
> and physical reality.

This is basically an attack on the scientific process in general. For all scientific theories work the same way: observation, hypothesis, evaluation. You only get the validation after the evaluation. With regard to String Theory you are standing in the gap between articulation of the theory and its eventual experimental evaluation. If you did that to relativity in 1918 you must conclude that relativity was "metaphysical" and bore "no logical connection" to "physical reality."

COMMENT: I am not attacking the scientific process. I am only pointing out that theory absent confirmation (validation) is just interesting mathematics. Maybe some day, somehow, String Theory will be validated. But, then, maybe some day a Being will descent from heaven and announce she is God. Both are wishes and prayers until the event happens.
___________________________________________
---------------------
> That is why John Wheeler
> talked about the "unreasonable* connection between
> mathematics and the physical world.

Again, the name dropping. If Wheeler persuaded you that Einstein's best work, or Bohr's, or Hawking's, was "metaphysical" because they produced theories that were not for decades capable of falsification, I'm not sure he deserves much attention.

COMMENT: You better Google Wheeler before you disparage him. He is one of *the* geniuses of 20th Century physics--by all accounts!
______________________________________

> COMMENT: The use of mathematics to generate
> theories that claim to coincide with physical
> reality, but which have no known connection to
> physical reality is, by definition, metaphysics.

Then all science is "metaphysics" because each new hypothesis is by definition a step beyond presently understood science.

COMMENT: Science as a process is not metaphysical; as long as it is designed to generate, test, and confirm theories for the purpose of understanding the physical world. Scientific theories like String Theory, that are not supportable even in principle by experimental confirmation, and which distort existing scientific knowledge, or extend ontology to dimensions completely unknown in order to validate their mathematics, is just metaphysics. And there is a hell-of-a-lot of such metaphysics in science today. (IMHO)

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 01:47PM

"consciousness controls everything"

What would be different if consciousness did not control everything?

If you can't specify that, then the statement is meaningless.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 04:42PM

Then nothing would exist, which is another mess of teleology unsatisfying to the average atheist.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 01:50PM

-- What would be different if consciousness did not control everything?

-- Then nothing would exist.

Great! How would we test that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: iceman9090 ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 11:31PM

"-- What would be different if consciousness did not control everything?

-- Then nothing would exist.

Great! How would we test that?"

==There is no test for it.
If my consciousness is controlling reality, then things would be going my way and if your consciousness is controlling reality, then things would be going in another direction.
For example, I could decide to change the charge of the electron, its mass, its spin, its magnetic moment.
On top of that, humans started out just not knowing anything about reality. So how can one claim that their consciousness is controlling reality?
That's like saying I am the pilot of a plane. I don't know what a plane is, what it does, where it comes from and I don't know how to be a pilot ....but I am controlling it.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Eric3 ( )
Date: March 02, 2020 06:02PM

"For example, I could decide to change the charge of the electron, its mass, its spin, its magnetic moment."

And have you done this?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: anonyXmo ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 01:49PM

schrodingerscat Wrote:
-----------------------------------------
> According to String theory, nothing really happens
> in the physical world. The Physical world is just
> a manifestation of the our consciousness.
> It seems that ancient wise men have always known
> this. That consciousness controls everything.


I would definitely lean in this direction based on all the studying I've done over the years in both spirituality and physics. Even w/o string theory (which is sort of iffy as a theory), the quantum world is pretty weird as it is esp. when you get down to the sub-Planck quantum foam scale (which is in scale compared to an atom as an atom is to a planet)

Though maybe I see it more as a mutual interaction in that both "physical world" and "consciousness" are manifestations of something that contains both. The physical world is how consciousness manifests itself to itself if you like

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 03:17PM

And we thought ghawd was just going through six days of tinker toys assembly when he started things up 6000 years ago!

If you substitute the word ‘turtles’ for ‘quantum physics’, then I’m perfectly at ease diving in as deep as you want to go!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Lot's Wife ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 03:26PM

But are the turtles alive or dead?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 03:31PM

The famous Koriwhore Turtle Tantrum!!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 02:38PM

Dead.

The two turtles dove into a part ridge of the dead sea.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Done & Done ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 06:29PM

I am very conscious and yet reality won't do a damn thing I want it to.

String theory is for Gepetto and Pinnochio and for people who think fancy words will make them seem smart.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 08:11PM

And cats.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 02:40PM

Jellicle ones hanging from hot tin roofs.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: saucie ( )
Date: February 24, 2020 08:17PM

hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahha.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: February 25, 2020 02:46PM

Imagine, if you will...

An atheist stuck at an intersection when the light turns green because the driver ahead isn't paying attention ... but has a rear bumber sticker that reads, "Honk if you Love Jesus!"

How would Einstein, Sagan, Kakupuffs, Vinny Barbarino, etc. handle THAT one?!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: February 26, 2020 03:50AM

String theory is what Gollum thinks Bilbo has in his pocket. String, or nothing.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: azsteve ( )
Date: February 26, 2020 10:23AM

So Shrodinger and Heisenberg were speeding down the road one day. Heisenberg was driving. A police officer pulls them over. The officer says to Heisenberg "do you know how fast you were going?". "No" said Heisenberg, "...but I know where I was". The officer thinks this is a strange answer and decides to investigate further. He opens the trunk and says "my god, you've got a dead cat back here". Shrodinger replies with a disappointed tone "awww, well now we do".

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: February 26, 2020 10:34AM

Love it!

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Human ( )
Date: March 02, 2020 09:34AM

Yes, of course it does.

I brought back to the prairies from Hawaii a chunk of volcanic rock I found laying about everywhere.

Reality has been shaped by my consciousness.

Human

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 02, 2020 12:42PM

My reality has been shaped by my heart.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: babyloncansuckit ( )
Date: March 02, 2020 06:31PM

Maybe these wide-ranging philosophies are all Kool Aid. The Science Kool Aid is just mixed to more exact specifications. Mortality is one big party of beings getting plastered because God wanted to experience getting smashed out of his skull. We are all cosmic stoners.

So. Will you be drinking the rest of that?

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: Elder Berry ( )
Date: March 02, 2020 07:06PM

babyloncansuckit Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will you be drinking the rest of that?


I want a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster.

Options: ReplyQuote
Posted by: ufotofu ( )
Date: March 05, 2020 10:11PM

I think so. See? there I go!

The Physical world is just a manifestation of our consciousness.

It is true, ancient - and current-future - wise men have always known this.

That consciousness controls everything.

Yeah, it's funny. When we come to earth, we really come down to earth.

And then we can't control anything. Everything happens for a reason, and I have nearly stopped looking.

It's like, I can't grow unless I grow into myself. I can't come unless I come again. I can't see unless it's possible for me to see what is seeing me seeing it.

No matter how hard I try, I can only be me. It pleases some and then it truly thanks them too. And it really means it- the others can't be helped.

It's like, all our (previous) lives we have been revving up. Then we're born [into our (current) body]! SUDDENLY! It is too late to decide on a different {consciousness} body/ reality/ personality, whatever.

I think a lot of 'stuff' was decided long ago.

I am just now deciding to go to bed (only because it wouldn't come to me tonight). We sleep together.

We're friends-
Aren't you?
Yay!

Options: ReplyQuote
Go to Topic: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicSearchLog In


Screen Name: 
Your Email (optional): 
Subject: 
Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically.
 **    **   ******    **    **  **     **  **        
 ***   **  **    **   **   **   **     **  **    **  
 ****  **  **         **  **    **     **  **    **  
 ** ** **  **   ****  *****     **     **  **    **  
 **  ****  **    **   **  **     **   **   ********* 
 **   ***  **    **   **   **     ** **          **  
 **    **   ******    **    **     ***           **