Rich Middle School in Laketown, Utah adopted a policy abolishing a child’s right to say “no” when asked to dance.

At the recent Valentine’s day dance, a girl was asked to dance by a boy who made her uncomfortable. The girl politely responded “No, thank you,” only to have the principal intervene and insist, “shooing” the two onto the dance floor.

When the girl got home, she “had an emotional explosion.”

Her mother is protesting the policy. The principal defends it, claiming that the choice is either to accept the policy or stay home. This stance skirts the main issue, as stated by the mother: “Girls HAVE to learn that they have the right to say no and that those around them have to respect that… I’m not going to quietly stand by while my daughter and all of her classmates are being wrapped up in rape culture.”

(Link to the article for more detail) :

https://www.today.com/parents/sixth-grader-utah-couldn-t-say-no-when-asked-dance-t174793

Everyone has the right to say 'no' and have respected boundaries. Mormons think opposite than a regular human for some reason. I am learning this.

On the other hand, nobody should ever have their feelings hurt. Being turned down can lead to lifelong incel psychoses and inferiority complexes.

(/s)

caffiend Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the other hand, nobody should ever have their
> feelings hurt. Being turned down can lead to
> lifelong incel psychoses and inferiority
> complexes.

I get what you're saying, I think. But I strongly disagree. Of course it can be uncomfortable as a guy to get turned down, I can imagine. But it's part of growing up, part of life. Females are not responsible for male feelings in that way (of course, I'm speaking of regular social interactions, assuming all are normal, well-adjusted individuals).

Females have the right to say NO, in whatever circumstances.

If a male being rebuffed develops "psychoses" over it, I would say he had a significant problem to start with. It is hoped that (1) the male student in question does not have any underlying major issues - as the article states that the female student felt uncomfortable with him for a specific reason and (2) that he learns that not every female, every time, is going to say yes to anything he asks.

Bottom Line: Finally, in our era now, females get to say NO and everybody better get used to it.

I think Caffiend is right. Girls should be taught to accommodate. Everyone should be taught to do this. By telling a 12 year old girl that she doesn't have to dance with a 12 year old boy is like telling a boy that he doesn't have to hold the door open for a girl, or help an old lady (who's struggling) carry her groceries.

This is part of Chivalry but it goes both ways. Society is much better if we act out our gender roles properly.

Seriously?

Holding doors open for girls or helping old ladies with groceries is something done OUTSIDE of your personal space.

It generally does NOT include being pawed, groped, having bruises left on your wrists, participating in an unwanted wrestling match, or having someone standing over you for several minutes spitting in your face when they talk.

Anything that requires close physical contact should be optional. No Thank You means no! (That doesn't mean a person needs to be jerky about it.)

Boy's and men DON'T have to hold doors open for women or pick up their packages for them. That's an outdated 50's notion, and I don't expect it, and if I'm able, I can do it myself, thanks. I am likely to open a door for a man behind me if he is about to enter. And everyone in life gets their feelings hurt from time to time. We all have to learn how to handle disappointment and how to honor others boundaries. Men and boys also should learn that they are not entitled to any woman's attention.

I see some of the responses below to caffiend's comment, so I should take the time to point out to folks a little out of touch with online slang:

"/s"

denotes that the person is being sarcastic.

macaRomney does not do sarcasm and, as a result, sometimes looks pretty silly.

JUST sometimes?

In honor of international women's day I was trying to be uncharacteristically charitable.

But if you insist on fidelity to the facts, I confess a very strong inclination towards your point of view--so strong, in fact, that I just fell over.

What if it's the same boy that's been harassing her in the halls? What if it's the same boy who tried to assault her on the bus? The same boy who raped her friend? Or her? Her ex who has been stalking her? The same boy who has threatened her? Why is she obligated to protect his feelings?
Even if he has done none of those things, it's all right to send a message that everyone, regardless of gender, has a right to bodily autonomy. Turning into an "incel" and embracing what that culture stands for is a personal choice. No one is owed another person's body for a dance, a kiss, or any sexual behavior.
People face rejection throughout life whether it be dating, getting into the college of their choice, a job, a sports team, etc. Adolescence is a time when, behaviorally, people are supposed to be learning the skills to handle these kinds of situations. To say that a person has to say yes to every request denies teenagers the opportunity to develop these skills which they will need for the rest of their lives. Yes, rejection sucks. It's also not the end of the world. It's part fo how we develop ego strength so that we don't get crushed every time we are told, "no."
(I'm an LCSW, I know a little of what I'm talking about, just for clarification.)

I was turned down several times for dances.

I did not develop any type of inferiority complex. It was understood in my day that if you took the risk of asking you also accepted the risk of rejection.

All kids have the right to say no regardless of gender.

Side note: I originally read about this in an online New Zealand paper.

Good for that mother! Boo to the principal!

Mom said:

“Girls HAVE to learn that they have the right to say no and that those around them have to respect that,” Hobson wrote on Facebook. “I’m not going to quietly stand by while my daughter and all of her classmates are being wrapped up in rape culture. No way.”


Principal replied:

"The principal said: “We do ask all students to dance. It is the nice thing to do and this will continue to be our policy,” Motta wrote on Feb. 15. “There have been similar situations in the past where some students have felt uncomfortable with others, and, as stated prior, the issues were discreetly handled. This allowed all students to feel welcome, comfortable, safe, and included.”

How bloody stupid is that? Obviously, "all students" do not feel "comfortable" or "safe" if they are forced to be in close contact with another person when they don't want to be.

It is the height of discomfort, in fact, for one's "no" to be brushed aside, for one to be forced to comply with anything at all, anywhere at all, in any circumstances at all, that make you feel uncomfortable.

What is this school policy teaching the female student? Not allowed to say no, despite feeling uncomfortable - euphemism for getting the creepy-crawlies about a person or situation.

What is this school policy teaching the male student? It's OK to force yourself on a person who has declined your approach.

In the case of this school dance, perhaps the male student felt as uncomfortable as the female student. Maybe neither of those young people felt they were able to disobey the school principal.

He is guilty of forcing his stupid policy on both students.

He needs some re-education. And fast.

Whether or not to have social relationships should not be mandated by those in authority. Everyone should have the right to say "no". If the boy is traumatized, it's his parents fault. Parents should coach their kids to prepare them for social relationships. There are often winners and losers in life. Most of us have experienced both roles. You often have to lose to learn how to win. Social relationships in the church are easy enough to begin with. That Principal is wrong to think that using force changes anything or helps anyone. He must have been rejected a lot by women in his life, starting when he was a kid.

I hope mom gets the other mothers (of daughters) together & FIRES this ahole principal!

Caffiend wrote "no one should EVER have their feelings hurt; being turned down can lead to inferiority compleses, psychosis, etc.

Good grief.

A) I agree with the mother: to not let a person of either sex say "no thank you," to any kind of request is absolutely buying into rape culture---among other boundary-setting difficulties.

B) Being turned down (politely yet!!) is part of life about a bezillion times in all kinds of ways. If that is going to cause severe mental health issues, we're all toast.

Rejection hurts, of course it does. One hopes that any rejections that occur will be done with kindness, gentleness, etc. But one definitely MUST know that one has the right, the responsibility, even, to say no.

For mental health reasons!!!!!

This old tradition of only the boy is the dance asker needs to be a thing of the past. Girls, ask the boys, too!

Dance organizers would do well to introduce some dances where everybody gets out there--line dancing, square dancing (gasp), something that involves a lot of kids.

... Lest, we end up with a lot of loud laughter.

oooh, this one hit the passion-button inside me.

I believe one of the most imporant lessons anyone needs to learn is that "no means no."

That means people need to accept "no" when they hear it; people need to say "no," not in a flirtatious, goofing-off way, but as this girl apparently did, politely (no need to be unkind)---but also straightforward.

It is terribly important that adults in authority back up the person who said "no." To do otherwise is, as this girl's mother said, an invitation for pedophiles and other abusers to feel free to abuse. Kids molested/raped by their teachers, relatives, friends of the family, scout-masters, etc. etc.
If the child (or woman, vulnerable man) knows they have permission and will be backed up when they say "no," they have so much better protection against all kinds of abuse.
Being taught to "stuff" their own self-protective instincts opens them up to all kinds of abuse. This is terribly important.

There are 2 books that I highly recommend to anyone who is wondering about this: The Gift of Fear, and Protecting the Gift, by Gavin deBecker.

In both books there is a list of things to teach children---including that they always have a right to say "no" to a request that feels wrong or makes them uncomfortable (I forget how he teaches it specifically---obviously this has to be clearly differentiated from requests to go to bed at bedtime, do your homework, etc.) And that the parents need to have taught their kids that they absolutely will back them up if they---not only SAY "no,"---but even may hit, kick, scream, etc. if a person persists in touching them or luring them to accompany them---no matter who that person is, from dear old Uncle Harry to strangers. Most child-molestation happens with people the family knows, although kidnapping by strangers does happen. There are SKILLS that can and should be learned by both children, (and other vulnerable people including women) and their "protectors" about all this. These books are the best I've ever seen anywhere about how to PREVENT molestation and other real dangers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2020 05:46PM by relievedtolearn.

I agree that girls (and boys) should always have the right to turn down dances. Having said that, I think that people should accept as many dances as possible. And I agree with Kathleen that the school should encourage group (line) dances. Those dances are fun, and everyone can participate.

I am astounded that anyone would advise a girl to say yes

to any boy who askes them. Somehow by saying that they send

an inherant message that the girls feelings are not as

important as the boy who asks her . This sets up a rich

mine field of little girls learning that everyone else is

more important than they are and that they should comply

with any thing requested of them .This is dumb, dangerous

and completely mysognistic. It lets the girl believe that

everyone elses desires are more important than hers and that

basically she is only an object who can be ordered to obey.

I couldn't agree more. Others have said much of this, but you've added a couple of nuances that strike me as critical.

Teaching girls that "it's wrong/impolite/unfeminine/etc." to say no is conditioning girls to be subservient and docile around boys (and later men), which is especially problematic around males they don't know, or don't know very well.

Thanks Saucie (and LW).

Establishing in them a sense of entitlement.

"I am entitled to dance with you if I want, even if you say no"
becomes "I am entitled to sex with you if I want, even if you say no".

+100

"It lets the girl believe that

everyone elses desires are more important than hers and that

basically she is only an object who can be ordered to obey"

taken several steps further....


girls can't decline phone calls or emails or texts

girls can't decline dates

girls can't decline affection / sex

I get things like having to get a Valentine for every person in the class so no one feels left out.

This is different, right? Dancing crosses the line to me.

Absolutely. Anything where there is one-on-one interaction or physical interaction must be voluntary.

'Principal' is supposed to be Everyone's PAL.

I think this guy is a PH philistine / Uber TBM- patriarchal off-the-rails guy.

I agree with the girl's mom.

Anyone who says, "No" doesn't need to give a reason or explanation or excuse, either.

I have survived the worst possible scenarios with attempted rapes by creeps I sort of knew. They all kept pursuing after I said "No." Trying to explain WHY I didn't want to date them, or get to know them, or have a conversation alone with them at night, made them angrier. My trying to reason with crazy people, led me deeper into the bad situations, further away from possible help, and bought more time for my assailants.

Many BYU young men had trouble hearing "No", after hearing "Yes." Saying yes to a few dates, and then saying "No" to a kiss, or yes to kissing but "No" to grabbing--this did not bode well with arrogant Mormon men. The missionaries were trained to keep pursuing, and to never take "no" for an answer. I told a returned missionary I was dating steadily that I didn't want to date him anymore, and he said, "NO, you are not breaking up with me! I won't let you! Finally, I was forced to tell him that I actually disliked him, and I wanted no further contact with him. He beat me up. He threatened to hurt some of my friends,and he threatened suicide, also. I had to leave BYU to get away from him.

Mormons don't teach anyone to say "No," whether they are males or females. This opens the door for all kinds of child abuse, and for Mormon (childlike) adults to fall for scams.

I wish I had been GIVEN PERMISSION when I was young, to say "No." We all have gut instincts about crazy and dangerous people, and lying cult-members, and we need to follow those.

What if a girl says "No", because the dance partner is sneezing and coughing? What if she knows something bad about his past, and is too polite to bring it up? What if she has a boyfriend, and doesn't want to hurt the boyfriend's feelings by dancing with someone else? There are so many reasons that are valid, and are not overt rejections, at all.

I love the line in "Murder on the Orient Express", when Poirot refuses to be hired to protect the villian, and the villian demands to know why. Poirot says, "I do not like your face."

I wish I had said that, many times.

Wow, that was a trigger for me, too! LOL

So sixth graders are being forced to dance ? Why does that principle still have a job ?

My wife's principal working at a school in Utah bragged about being the school "Bishop." That is why they have a job.

Of course girls shouldn't have to dance with someone repulsive.

I remember when I was in sixth grade, and they had the sixth graders dance for P.E. I, being hideous, was asked by my teacher to sit out and watch the others dance. I did not object. I did not complain. I understood entirely. It was the right decision to make.

I don't agree with the adult leader but I do think the mother is taking things too far. The principal may have grown up where a dance was a social function for the entire school community and refusing to dance with someone was seen as being very rude and against the norms of life in small western towns like Laketown. (I have spent many happy hours in Laketown myself.) Was it a close slow dance, or was it just a dance? Maybe kidsd dance differently than I did in Junior High, but there was not a lot of physical contact going on. Personally I experienced being forced to dance with girls I did not like in 6th grade; Christy had BO and cooties and it was an unpleasant experience, somehow I survived. Looking back I hope I wasn't too mean to her because I now realize she came from a very poor family with a disfunctional mother who did not take care of her or teach her personal cleanliness habits.

When I was in high school I asked three different girls to three different dances and was turned down each time. I gave up asking and would schedule ski or camping trips with my friendsd without girlfriends whenever a big school dance came up. I became convinced no girl wanted anything to do with me. When I went away to college I was happily surprised in the first ten or fifteen minutes that this was not the case. So fast forwad many many years. I'm face book friends with two of those highschool girls and we share pictures and stories of our kidsd and grandkids and trips. The last girl who turned me down in high school now makes a point of finding me at our high school reunions and we usually spend about a half hour catching up. She confided long ago her reason for turning me down and it had nothing to do with me. No one seems to care about the boy's feelings in the story above, I'd like to know what he thought about himself after the incident and how it makes him feel about the girls at his highschool.

How a boy feels is not a girl's responsibility. Period.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How a boy feels is not a girl's responsibility.
> Period.


Of course that goes directly against mormon belief.... hahahahhahahahahhaha. Its sick to teach girls that boys
feelings are their responsibility. Mormons are so messed up.

It is indeed pure Mormonism. Members are responsible for how their leaders feel, women are responsible for how their husbands feel, children are responsible for how their parents feel. Mormons are trained that way from birth.

It is wrong in all cases but with girls and women it adds the sexual element. Girls feel some guilt when they are raped, harassers claim that they were looking out for their victims who "really were with the wrong guy," juries empathize with the aggressor because "she should have thought of his feelings."

The notion that anyone should make social or dating decisions based on others' feelings is poisonous. And religious or social organizations or leaders who purvey such notions are snakes.

Always.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2020 04:30PM by Lot's Wife.

Lot's Wife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The notion that anyone should make social... decisions based on others' feelings is poisonous.

Isn't that notion the "Golden Rule"?

The Golden Rule is used routinely by narcissists and sociopaths to cultivate their victims. There are some circumstances in which it is a terrible principle, including when discussing mandatory dating and physical contact.

In this case we are talking about the more physically powerful gender benefiting not from the decision of a girl but from rules imposed by a powerful communal/religious organization. At that point the Golden Rule is no longer the thoughtful and voluntary decision of the girl but rather the expectation of a society that doesn't care much about sexual abuse and routinely sides with men.

Let men and women make their own decisions, including when and how to apply the Golden Rule, from positions of independence and without outside pressure. As you know, EB, the Golden Rule is not safe when it implies that the weaker party must accept the preferences of the stronger one.

If we have no concern for the feelings of others we have a very sad and self centered society. If I applied this maxim "men have no concern for the feelings of women" to the school, workplace or any social environment, it would be completely unacceptable.

A sixth grade boy is being portrayed as being a stalker, vindictive ex boyfriend and rapist by posters above here. That's total nonsense and gross over reaction.

> A sixth grade boy is being portrayed as being a
> stalker, vindictive ex boyfriend and rapist by
> posters above here. That's total nonsense and
> gross over reaction.

It is also a gross misreading of what I wrote.

> If we have no concern for the feelings of others
> we have a very sad and self centered society.

That is exactly the point. You are defending a system in which boys do not have to worry about the feelings of girls. The school will enforce the boys' preferences no matter what.

That is the essence "a very sad and self centered society."

I'm sure the address of the school is online, I'm going to send the principal a note about this, I hope others do too...

12345 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Girls HAVE to learn that they have the
> right to say no


Absolutely! What a dangerous policy. I would be the kid staying home. There's no way that I would be forced to dance with people who make me uncomfortable.

I was bullied daily in school. What if I'd been forced to dance with the people who taunted me every day, just so that they could taunt me even more, knowing that I couldn't say, "No?"

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2020 02:03PM by cl2.

Every individual should have a right to say no.

Also, I believe that anyone who has some sort of social anxiety should call his/her parents and choose not to participate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2020 12:26PM by messygoop.

I remember this was a controversy a few years ago... in Utah. I guess the last bad press they got wasn’t enough.

Right... it was in 2018.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/13/health/utah-school-children-dance-trnd/index.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2020 12:53PM by knotheadusc.

Or if he expected to dance with an unwilling girl for half of the evening?

Would she have to say yes every time?

Cheryl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would she have to say yes every time?

The logical reasoning that led to "dance cards." Interfering with the young in their pseudo-sexual budding social interaction seems to be a pastime for the older and "wiser."

People argue for public schools because we can't trust stupid parents to know what is best for their kids. Then people bitch when the schools do stupid stuff.

Here's an idea - if you don't like their policy, change schools. Oh, wait, you can't.

So go to a private school or homeschool. Oh, wait, you'll still be forced to pay for public school. Don't pay your taxes and eventually someone with a gun will make you.

Oh! Poop! People can't live isolated with all their own money. They have to pay some of it forward.

I'm sure there is a scenario you could find to avoid taxes. Not death but probably taxes.

Many many (1975ish) years ago I had an end of year dinner dance in sixth grade. For six months half of our PE time was learning to dance the classic dances. For six months I had to dance with several boys at some time or other that for my whole grade school experience would chase me home and call me names every day after school.

These boys were mean and cruel to me.

When the evening of the dance came after the dinner one of these boys asked me to dance. I firmly but politely told him no. Next thing I know I am being pulled aside by one of my teachers for him to tell me I can not turn down the dance.

I stood my ground and told my teacher I could tell him no and I will not dance with him, or either of the other two boys that tormented me. I told the teacher why and he still tried to tell me I needed to dance with the boy or any of the other two, so they could get to know me and become my friend so they would stop teasing me.

I told him he could not tell me who I had to dance with.

I would not budge and the teacher gave up trying.

It hurts my heart when I read stories like this because I lived it. I was a stubborn 12 year old. I grew up learning to stand up for my self.

Fu Ree Agen Sí!

Sing it loud: Fu Ree Agen Sí!